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[Escrime Anglais]

The scientific style of pugilism created by Mendoza is refered to as Mendoza's, as well as the Irish. It is refered to as the "Irish" style because it was the most popular in Ireland and almost became associated with the Irish on a whole. What trully differentiates the Irish from English BKB was more the rule set as your attitude was more personal and not set in stone like in modern boxing. There are less in the Irish. My source is the Gypsy bare knucklers who still fight today. There are BKB comps held in Ireland till today. Many of these guys have a long family tradition of fighting. Some even know about Mendoza himself and claim lineage in style.

OK, so your only source for this historical "Irish boxing" is the modern Irish BKB guys?


 

Lee's favouring of the strong side lead did come from fencing. But so did the old BKboxers.

No, they didn't.

BKB came from fencing, which is why many of the original boxers prefered the right side, or strong/co-ordinated side lead. James Figg, today is called the "Father of Modern Boxing", but in his time he was called "the Encyclopedia of the Sword". When Lee discovered this, he started researching the old BKB stuff. Haislett was an old BKB fighter who wrote an instructional book in the 1800's. It is considered one of the best BKB instructionals ever. Also, Mendoza taught strong side lead. As well as Broughton, Figg, Johnson, Yankee Sullivan, Jacob Hyer, etc.

Not correct.

Figg left no written record of his method, but his sparring partner, Captain John Godfrey, did.  In his Treatise Upon The Useful Science Of Defence (1747), Godfrey clearly describes a left-hand lead, and he even refers to the left arm as "a kind of buckler".


In addition, I've taken a look at the book Boxing Made Easy; or, The Complete Manual of Self Defence authored by "A Pupil of Mendoza and Humphreys", and he likewise shows a left-side lead.


In Broughton's Rules from 1743, the boxers are also shown leading with the left.

And finally, the drawings I have seen of both Jacob Hyer's son Tom, and Yankee Sullivan, show both men using a left-side lead.


Thoughts?


 

[410indashade]

What's all this right lead/left lead  or strong side/weak side to do with streetfighting?  As I recall technigues are to be practiced from both sides anyway.  Some guys  sheesh

[raswic]

First the Modern Irish Boxers are not my only source. There are numerous books and websites that talk about Mendoza. Mendozza opened up his school in Dublin after his tour of Ireland. Try reading some books on boxing history.
Also, the old BKBoxers were first, originally fencers. This is a fact. They came out of the schools of Defense which were primarily fencing schools.
While Figg left no written records, if you ever look at the only portrait of him in a stance, he is clearly standing with a right lead. And Godfrey did describe a left lead. And desribed the left arm as a buckler. Now in English Sword and Buckler fighting, most, not all, prefered to lead with the sword, not buckler. Read Silver's Paradoxes of Defense and Breif Instructions Upon My Paradoxes. He clearly states the sword should be in the lead as it is a mmore secure defense. Mendoza's pupil did show a left lead, as that is what Mendoza prefered. He also says that what foot is in the lead should not matter, as you should be adept at both. In the pic accompanying Broughton's rules, it's just that, artwork to adorn the poster anouncing the rules.And yes, Tom Hyer and Yankee Sullivan are pictured with left leads. All this is circumstantial. As with all fencing instructors of the past, they also stressed to train for being ambidexterous. Not to mention, they taught comfort. If you are more comfortable with one over the other, go with it. Not to mention, that just because I fight right lead/left lead, I can't teach the other. It is trully a mute point. What it comes down to is comfort.
I feel that this is no longer educational, but trolling for an argument. So I will not be drawn into it. If anyone wishes to they can contact me and I will point them to the sources. Besides this is supposed to be about Irish Stick Fencing, not Pugilism.

[raswic]

From the website ezine.kungfumagazine.com
The Patriarch of Irish Clever Boxers
Boxing as an art form was raised to new heights with the rise to prominence of the Spanish-English Jew, Daniel Mendoza. Being raised in London's East End, and of Spanish descent and Jewish faith, one can assume that Mendoza learned to fight early, although he was only 5 feet 7 inches tall and never weighed more than 168 pounds. Mendoza competed from the mid-1780's until 1820. Probably due to his size, Mendoza was the first boxer to popularize a style in which footwork, jabbing and defense were used to overcome brute force. It is often said that Mendoza was the first to put the "science" into the Sweet Science.

 In his first match, Mendoza beat a fighter who was known as Harry the Coalheaver. Daniel was first recognized as a top rank boxer in 1787 when he defeated Sam "The Bath Butcher" Martin. However, it was his four-fight series with "The Gentleman Fighter" Richard Humphries that really brought him to the public eye. The two were very well matched and Humphries won their first match in 1787. Mendoza was ahead in their return match the following year, when he suffered a leg injury at the 29 minute mark and had to throw in the towel. In 1789, Mendoza dominated their third match and won in 52 minutes. When he beat The Gentleman in 15 minutes the following year, Humphries retired.

Mendoza became the British Boxing Champion with his win over Bill Warr in 1794. With this title he toured England, Scotland and Ireland with the Aston Circus. This tour greatly increased the popularity of Mendoza's Scientific Style of boxing and it became the rage of young boxers throughout the British Isles. While touring Ireland, he was challenged and had his skills, heritage, and faith insulted by one Squire Fitzgerald. When Mendoza met and thoroughly thrashed this upstart member of the Irish gentry, he and his boxing style became the pride of the Irish working class and their inspiration to learn to box. It was in this manner that a Spanish-English Jew became the Patriarch of Irish Clever Boxers. In April of 1795, Mendoza lost the title to "Gentleman" John Jackson, who weighed over 200 pounds and specialized in the left jab. It was Jackson's third and last fight.

Mendoza became one of Britain's most respected boxing instructors, and continued to fight on and off until 1820. At the age of 56, he lost his last fight to 52 year old Tom Owens who invented the dumbbell weight. Mendoza lived until the age of 73.

[getgoin]

Very good thread. Wic, I would agree that was trolling. Pictures, especially in the early days where often turned around so left or right doesn't matter, it's what works. I look forward to catching up on the topics I have missed out on.