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Author Topic: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense  (Read 3307 times)

Adventure

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Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« on: October 03, 2005, 09:11:42 AM »

Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense.

I went to the Cold Steel Challenge just the other weekend (9/24-25) with a couple of friends and had a really good time watching different MA schools compete in knife and sword fighting competitions put on by Cold Steel. This was the second year that CS put this on and the prizes were awesome for an amateur event: The IMPERIAL SERIES-Katana, Wakazashi, O Tanto from CS worth about $2500+.

But what I would like to think/write about is how this competing effected or can affect self-defense. We saw various styles of MA and some reenactment groups that act out medieval swordplay. Now the major MA groups there were of the FMA (Filipino MA), but other style were seen too: Kenpo, Kung-Fu, etc.

I saw people that just use their knife or sword like a bat, I saw people trading shots to get points & then I saw a few (very few) people that put their training & skill into practice.

The prizes were very nice, I would have wanted them myself and probably would have done what was needed to get the job done, but would that have helped my self-defense?

I learned by watching that competition that we must not give up good sound techniques just to win the next point or we might carry that “sport leakage”(Hock) into the streets where it will get us mimed or killed.
It just so happened that one of the few groups that use their skill consistently was a FMA called Atienza Kali (a sister system to Sayco Kali); which it turned out to be the instructors I would be seeing at a 5-hour seminar the following weekend.

The nice thing about these guys was no matter whom they fought they always played by their rules, which was not to trade hits or double kills. I saw blocks/deflections and then counters, I saw them going in for the 1st attack by slapping the opponents sword and then thrusting. They were just fun to watch. All of them might not have made it to the end, but by what I saw they were not going to let “sport leakage” creep in JUST to win the point. (Their top student won the sword competition)

That is all I was going to write and post, but got back from the Kali seminar and was impressed with what I learned; I had already seen these techniques applied on the competition floor appropriately. They taught us how to read the opponents movements better so that I could pick up the strikes easier and I know that drilling with these ideas in mind that I can apply this to stick, knife and hand strikes. All these ideas blend well with what I have learned and still learn at Hock’s seminars and just gives me “1 more bullet for my gun” (Hock).

Atienza Kali’s approach to blade fighting/training is keeping it as close to the chaos of combat as possible.



P.S. I was able to meet Tom Kier of Sayco Kali who is one of the people who helped choreograph/trained the FMA scenes in the movie the Hunted. It was fun talking to him about his work on that film.

Just My Thoughts. (JMT)

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Re: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2005, 09:32:55 AM »

Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense.

I went to the Cold Steel Challenge just the other weekend (9/24-25) with a couple of friends and had a really good time watching different MA schools compete in knife and sword fighting competitions put on by Cold Steel. This was the second year that CS put this on and the prizes were awesome for an amateur event: The IMPERIAL SERIES-Katana, Wakazashi, O Tanto from CS worth about $2500+.

But what I would like to think/write about is how this competing effected or can affect self-defense. We saw various styles of MA and some reenactment groups that act out medieval swordplay. Now the major MA groups there were of the FMA (Filipino MA), but other style were seen too: Kenpo, Kung-Fu, etc.

I saw people that just use their knife or sword like a bat, I saw people trading shots to get points & then I saw a few (very few) people that put their training & skill into practice.

The prizes were very nice, I would have wanted them myself and probably would have done what was needed to get the job done, but would that have helped my self-defense?

I learned by watching that competition that we must not give up good sound techniques just to win the next point or we might carry that “sport leakage”(Hock) into the streets where it will get us mimed or killed.
It just so happened that one of the few groups that use their skill consistently was a FMA called Atienza Kali (a sister system to Sayco Kali); which it turned out to be the instructors I would be seeing at a 5-hour seminar the following weekend.

The nice thing about these guys was no matter whom they fought they always played by their rules, which was not to trade hits or double kills. I saw blocks/deflections and then counters, I saw them going in for the 1st attack by slapping the opponents sword and then thrusting. They were just fun to watch. All of them might not have made it to the end, but by what I saw they were not going to let “sport leakage” creep in JUST to win the point. (Their top student won the sword competition)

That is all I was going to write and post, but got back from the Kali seminar and was impressed with what I learned; I had already seen these techniques applied on the competition floor appropriately. They taught us how to read the opponents movements better so that I could pick up the strikes easier and I know that drilling with these ideas in mind that I can apply this to stick, knife and hand strikes. All these ideas blend well with what I have learned and still learn at Hock’s seminars and just gives me “1 more bullet for my gun” (Hock).

Atienza Kali’s approach to blade fighting/training is keeping it as close to the chaos of combat as possible.



P.S. I was able to meet Tom Kier of Sayco Kali who is one of the people who helped choreograph/trained the FMA scenes in the movie the Hunted. It was fun talking to him about his work on that film.

Just My Thoughts. (JMT)



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Sun_Helmet

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Re: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2005, 07:15:15 AM »

(a sister system to Sayco Kali).... (snipped)
P.S. I was able to meet Tom Kier of Sayco Kali who is one of the people who helped choreograph/trained the FMA scenes in the movie the Hunted. It was fun talking to him about his work on that film.

Just My Thoughts. (JMT)


Glad you got to meet the Atienzas and Tuhon Tom Kier.
One correction though:
"Sayoc" not "Sayco" it sounds too close to "Psycho"... :o

--Rafael--
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Adventure

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Re: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2005, 04:16:42 PM »

Sun Helemt,

woops totally a miss spelling: "Sayoc" not "Sayco"  I did not mean that mistake.

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Re: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2005, 10:49:21 AM »

I have been thinking about self-defense competitions.  I was thinking that if you and I agree to fight, legally, we are both bad guys.  Thus, if we put on gear and have some rules for safety and you and I agree to spar, we are training bad guy skills.  Good guys don't always 'finish' the fight.  Good guys want to be safe.  Sometimes that means defeating people, but sometimes it means escaping, disarming or protecting a third party.  With that in mind, here are some scenarios for self-defence competitions:

1) Escape.  Competitor A is designated defender, B is the attacker.  The mat has two stanchions 3 feet apart at B's end.  The goal of A is to get through the stanchions (escape route).  The goal of B is to abuse A and keep him in the ring and beat him up.  You have a tournament where everybody fights everybody else once.  The winner is the one who was kept in the ring the least amount of time as defender.  If A gets knocked out or submitted, then it is a standard 5 minute time charge and no match goes longer than 5 minutes.

2) Escort.  Same as 1) except there is a third person (C) in the ring being escorted by A.  B's goals are the same except that A gets a 10 second penalty every time B touches the escorted person.  C cannot move unless A moves him.  Winner is again the one with the least amount of ring time as the defender.

3) Submission.  This time, A is given a rope with two loops, representing handcuffs.  His job is to get the "cuffs" over B's wrists.  He incurs a 5 second penalty every time he hits B.  Overall winner is the one who has the least ring time as A.

3) Disarm & Escape.  This time, B has a padded stick.  A's job is to leave the ring through the door as in 1).  'A' gets a 10 second penalty every time B whacks him with the stick and a 2 minute bonus if he leaves the ring with the stick.
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Kentbob

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Re: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2005, 11:14:45 AM »

I have been thinking about self-defense competitions.  I was thinking that if you and I agree to fight, legally, we are both bad guys.  Thus, if we put on gear and have some rules for safety and you and I agree to spar, we are training bad guy skills.  Good guys don't always 'finish' the fight.  Good guys want to be safe.  Sometimes that means defeating people, but sometimes it means escaping, disarming or protecting a third party.  With that in mind, here are some scenarios for self-defence competitions:

1) Escape.  Competitor A is designated defender, B is the attacker.  The mat has two stanchions 3 feet apart at B's end.  The goal of A is to get through the stanchions (escape route).  The goal of B is to abuse A and keep him in the ring and beat him up.  You have a tournament where everybody fights everybody else once.  The winner is the one who was kept in the ring the least amount of time as defender.  If A gets knocked out or submitted, then it is a standard 5 minute time charge and no match goes longer than 5 minutes.

2) Escort.  Same as 1) except there is a third person (C) in the ring being escorted by A.  B's goals are the same except that A gets a 10 second penalty every time B touches the escorted person.  C cannot move unless A moves him.  Winner is again the one with the least amount of ring time as the defender.

3) Submission.  This time, A is given a rope with two loops, representing handcuffs.  His job is to get the "cuffs" over B's wrists.  He incurs a 5 second penalty every time he hits B.  Overall winner is the one who has the least ring time as A.

3) Disarm & Escape.  This time, B has a padded stick.  A's job is to leave the ring through the door as in 1).  'A' gets a 10 second penalty every time B whacks him with the stick and a 2 minute bonus if he leaves the ring with the stick.


Sounds like a self-defense rodeo.  I'm in.


Kent
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Re: Using Competition so it does not ruin our Self-defense
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2006, 12:33:56 PM »

We did the first experiment with this last saturday in my backyard.  People were given 'scenario cards' which told them to act like a drunk panhandler, gang dueler, mass attack, aggressive mugger etc.  The trainee (good guy) was supposed to 1) stay safe and 2) stay out of jail.  He had to get across my hard to the patio, considered safe territory.

Given those criteria, the tactics used by the 'good guys' were amazingly different from what I had seen up until then.  Instead of dueling or grappling or standing ground, it often looked a lot more like football with a knife.  Guys were plowing into their attackers and shoving them out of the way using a knife to help and then hoofing it out of the danger zone.  We also found it was really hard to restrain a guy running at you with a knife in his hand.  The bad guys could certainly wound the good guy, but they had a tough time doing anything more than giving him a cool scar. In no scenario did the 'knife football' tactic result in a lethal wound for the good guy.  Standing and fighting often did.

My opinion - we just increased our real-world self defense & survival skills by a significant amount.
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