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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • October 23, 2018, 04:28:54 AM
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Author Topic: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?  (Read 5725 times)

Stephen A. Camp

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Hello.  I am not trying to pick a fight, start another of the tedious caliber wars that we see so often, nor say one type of handgun is better than another.  I am interested in hearing the views of others on what they either handle better under stress and at speed or simply feel more comfortable with.

Thank you in advance.

Best.
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Professor

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2005, 04:09:54 PM »

Hello.  I am not trying to pick a fight, start another of the tedious caliber wars that we see so often, nor say one type of handgun is better than another.  I am interested in hearing the views of others on what they either handle better under stress and at speed or simply feel more comfortable with.

Thank you in advance.

Best.

Welcome to the nuthouse.

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Waiting for the endless arguement.....   ;)
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Stephen A. Camp

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2005, 06:47:58 PM »

Hello.  IF it degenerates into more than courteous exchanges of information and becomes an "Oh, you are so wrong" or "Everyone knows" type of thing that the moderator will just delete it.

Best.
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spanky

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2005, 06:51:09 PM »

OK, " I'm your huckleberry"  ;D IMHO I like simple stuff for those close encounters of the deadly kind, like point(using the sights of course) and shoot, like revolvers or an auto like a Glock and from my experinece bigger is always better (caliber) .40 cal minimum. Unfortuneately I have to use what Uncle Sugar issues me , thank god they were smart enough to piggyback on the DEA contract so we ended up with the Glock 22 in .40 caliber (previously we had the crappy S&W 5946 DAO  >:() which is a great gun with good balance between speed, caliber. light trigger pull 5 lbs and lightweight for carrying.  When I retire I will upgrade to a Glock 36 in .45.
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Stephen A. Camp

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2005, 07:00:26 PM »

Hello and thanks very much for your post.  I appreciate your input.

Best.
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Professor

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2005, 08:05:50 PM »

Hello and thanks very much for your post.  I appreciate your input.

Best.


Shoot a 1911...my preferred gun and caliber. (Full-size in truck and compact in concealed holster).

However, my Glock 19 is my night time gun for around the property (with a light on the rail and a flashlight in hand).

For four legged critters.....10/22....not a handgun, but 30 rounds of .22 won't wake my neighbors..

My handguns are tools, just like the others....some fit the situation better.



Prof
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Stephen A. Camp

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2005, 08:17:46 PM »

Hello, sir.  Thanks so much for your reply.  I, too, am a fan of the single-action autopistol and normally tote either a 1911 5" in .45 or a Hi Power in 9mm and feel secure with either.  Now and again, I carry a Glock 17, but not nearly so often as for the other two.  BUG remains an S&W Model 642.

Best to you and yours.
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Hock

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2005, 12:54:39 PM »

Why...if this is the Steve Camp I think it is...I perfer the very .45 that you modified/ customized for me at my farewell luncheon. Still have it. Still use.

Hoghead...er, I mean Hock

(Steve remembers well the man who came into the lobby some 20 years ago, asking for "Detective Hoghead")

Stephen A. Camp

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2005, 05:48:21 PM »

Hello, Hoch.  One in the same.  I'm retired now but still carry via CHL.  My orbits are very tame now so I only carry a 38 snub and one reload much of the time, but on ocassion do tote a 45 or Hi Power.

Best.
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gumbey

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2005, 05:58:59 AM »

.45 ACP or less. It doesn't matter whether single or double action (depends on weight of trigger pull). I've shot Glocks pretty good even at double action only. Revolver DA might be a little too much for me so I prefer semiautos.
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Stephen A. Camp

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2005, 07:32:53 AM »

Hello and thanks for your post.  Though I prefer the single-action .45 auto, I  have not found the transitition from double to single-action to be as difficult as others apparently have and have seen some nice "work" done with the SIG-Sauer P220.

Best.
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Virgil

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2005, 01:28:22 PM »

As a shooter, my preference runs to 45, generally in a single-stack 1911, though I've got a soft spot for the DA revolver (and the SA revolver too . . . the ol'e thumbuster really ain't a bad platform in the right hands).
When I had a CCW I chose a steel frame  Officer's 1911; small enough to conceal, but steel frame because I anticipated "truck carry" most of the time.
Were I to carry on my person on a daily basis, I'd look much harder at weight and size, and would likely go to a polymer-framed gun in a .40 or even (gasp!) a 9mm.  I prefer 40 cal & higher, but recognize the efficacy of the 9, and in a small gun, that matters.  If money were an issue (when is it not?) I'd get me a Taurus snub-nosed .38 with a bobbed hammer.
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JD

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2005, 12:42:14 AM »

Hello all. I just joined this forum tonite and couldn't resist to reply on this one.
I also carry a .45, just cause I like the size of the hole it produces. But one shouldn't  have to feel "wed" to any particular weapon. They are just tools. Yeah, we all have our favorites, but if your favorite happens to break down, stolen, etc one shouldn't feel handicapped, or undergunned. The principals apply to any handgun we may own, shotplacement, movement, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Yes, granted I like/shoot my .45 the best, but if I weren't able to use/carry it for some strange reason, I'd still feel well armed with my 9mm. just my $.02. :) looking forward to checking out this place some more.
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Professor

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2005, 08:41:01 AM »

Hello all. I just joined this forum tonite and couldn't resist to reply on this one.
I also carry a .45, just cause I like the size of the hole it produces. But one shouldn't  have to feel "wed" to any particular weapon. They are just tools. Yeah, we all have our favorites, but if your favorite happens to break down, stolen, etc one shouldn't feel handicapped, or undergunned. The principals apply to any handgun we may own, shotplacement, movement, keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Yes, granted I like/shoot my .45 the best, but if I weren't able to use/carry it for some strange reason, I'd still feel well armed with my 9mm. just my $.02. :) looking forward to checking out this place some more.

Welcome to the nut house!
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Kentbob

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2005, 09:43:14 PM »

   Well, I have said it before, and I'll say it again, everyone knows....Just kidding.
   I love my glock 27.  It is a subcompact .40.  I chose it for concealability, and as a compromise between takedown and control.  I have problems shooting .45s because I don't have very strong hands, and read how the 9mm was inneffective at stopping assailants quickly, and how the police departments had mostly gone to the .40.  So, that is what I got, and I love it.  I have never had to shoot a person with it, but I am confident of my ability to hit him, either with sights or without.  Plus, I have a nice little inside the waistband holster that makes my pistol almost invisible on me.  So, that is my setup in a nutshell.


Kent
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gumbey

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2005, 05:08:59 PM »

I own a .40 (H&K USP) and .45 (S&W 457) and I shoot them better than average. But I am much better with the 9mm, which is the Beretta M-9/92F I use when doing my job in the armed services. For rifles, I don't own any. But I have shot in the miilitary the M-14 and M-16. Makes no difference to me. I'm accurate with either one of them. But as far as ease of operation, such as loading and chambering or manipulating the safety, I prefer the M-16. For shotguns, any 12-gauge will do.
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comebackkidct

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2005, 10:06:33 AM »

I carry a Glock 23 (.40 cal SW).  I love it, but what tool you carry really depends on the situation, or your objective.  My objective has to be concealability, because of the state i live in and the fact that I'm not an LEO.  I chose the Glock 23 for caliber (.40 supposed to be highly effective), weight, and reliability.  I would prefer to carry a Sig, or a 1911 Commander model.  I'm have two wives, .40 and .45.  prefer Glocks, Springfield 1911, Sig Sauer, and HK.
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threegun

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2005, 05:54:22 PM »

I have also chosen the Glock Model 23 for concealed carry. If the poop ever hits the fan I am armed with arguably the best fighting handgun in the world, the Glock, in a caliber capable of mid 90's one shot stopping power. While I wouldn't feel underarmed with the model 23 by any means, if I could chose my handgun knowing in advance that trouble was comming, I would select my Glock model 21 in 45acp. Again the Glock pistol in any caliber should be considered tops in combat handguns, however my model 21 is the finest shooting combat handgun that I have had the pleasure of firing hands down, bar none, end of story. Why the Glock? Glocks are utterly reliable! I have, in 12 years of Glockin, never had a stoppage that wasn't faulty ammunition or magazine springs. The Glock has a consistent trigger pull everytime, eliminating the possiblity of stress oriented hi low shooting that hard & long double action trigger pull and the light and short single action followup shot causes. The Glocks trigger requires the least amount of foward travel to re cock making it the fastest for followup shots. The Glock has an extremely low bore axis, lower than any other combat handgun I have fired. This low bore axis reduces the muzzel flip also allowing the gun to remain closer to the intended target, meaning a faster followup shot. The Glock is capable of accuracy far greater than I am, so accuracy capability is as good as your abilities. The Glock is as tough as pig iron, far out classing many guns costing much more. The Tenifer finish on this handgun is the toughest I have ever seen and is reportedly salt water resistant. I can field strip the Glock in seconds and replace any broke part quickly and easily with one tool. The only catagory that Glock absolutly cannot compete is looks. It is one of the ugliest handgun on the market. But looks don't win gunfights.

To answer the question. I am wedded to the Glocks safe action for the reason described above. Caliber is not a concern of mine so long as it is capable of at least 90 percent one shot stops or better with quality ammo. In any "poop hit the fan" situation if given time to prepare the handgun will only be a backup to my main weapon the AR-15.
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TwoGun

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2005, 08:23:47 PM »

I live fairly far norht where much of the year people tend to wear jackets, sweaters, and heavy coats.  Not all year long by any means but from say Oct to May.  This of course would include the bad guys.  In order for just about any bullet to expand it depends on the hollowpoint.  While certainly there are a few designs that don't, most conventioanl ammo does.  And the caliber doesn't really matter.  When fired through severl layers of heavy clothing, the hollowpoint tend to act like a cookie cutter and fill up with fibers as they pass through.  So as often as not you end up with non expanding ammo.  And when it comes to non expanding ammo, bigger around tends to be better.  That's why I opt for .40 and .45 in a carry gun.  My primary carry gun is a Para P-13 and I like a lot.  I also have a full sized P-16 in .40S&W that is an excellent pistol as well. 

Since my work clothes are business casual, the P-13 is a bit difficult to carry.  I am considering the new Para WartHog as a really compact .45 but I'd like to shoot one first.

As I've shot 1911 format pistols competitivly for ten years and was my units marksmanship instructor in the Army instructing with the 1911 along with the M16, I've very comfortable carrying a 1911 in condition one but I understand that this is not for everyone.
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spanky

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2005, 01:28:11 PM »

Twogun,

Merry Christmas, Does the Army still require it's personnel to carry the 1911 or M9 in condition 3 ?

Thanks

Hank
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TwoGun

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2005, 02:26:36 PM »

I've been out of the service for quite some time now, but as far as I'm aware, yes, condition 3 is the prescribed method of carry.  Unless they ever decide that soldiers will spend enough range time I understand the reasoning.  However I sincerly doubt that in combat zones very many soldiers issued pistols will carry them that way for long.

My biggest concern with condition 3 is that not so much the lenght of time required to get it into action but that it takes two hands.  Yes there are ways to accomplish it with one hand but I've never seen one that was very easy and if you are fending of an attacker with one hand it would be extremely difficult to get your pistol into action from condition 3.

And Merry Christmas yourself.  Hope you've got all your shopping done!
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spanky

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2005, 03:01:29 PM »

Twogun,

I did all of my shopping at Glock.com and kimber.com a few weeks ago  :-*
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Kentbob

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2005, 01:47:54 AM »

I live fairly far norht where much of the year people tend to wear jackets, sweaters, and heavy coats.  Not all year long by any means but from say Oct to May.  This of course would include the bad guys.  In order for just about any bullet to expand it depends on the hollowpoint.  While certainly there are a few designs that don't, most conventioanl ammo does.  And the caliber doesn't really matter.  When fired through severl layers of heavy clothing, the hollowpoint tend to act like a cookie cutter and fill up with fibers as they pass through.  So as often as not you end up with non expanding ammo.  And when it comes to non expanding ammo, bigger around tends to be better.  That's why I opt for .40 and .45 in a carry gun.  My primary carry gun is a Para P-13 and I like a lot.  I also have a full sized P-16 in .40S&W that is an excellent pistol as well. 

Since my work clothes are business casual, the P-13 is a bit difficult to carry.  I am considering the new Para WartHog as a really compact .45 but I'd like to shoot one first.

As I've shot 1911 format pistols competitivly for ten years and was my units marksmanship instructor in the Army instructing with the 1911 along with the M16, I've very comfortable carrying a 1911 in condition one but I understand that this is not for everyone.

   First things first...the gentleman where I purchase my glock told me that more often that not the round will still expande, even after passing through the layers of heavy clothing.  This was in Alaska, where that concern definitely exists.  But, he suggested if I was worried about it to purchase mechanical hollow points, like Winchester Golden Saber, if I recall correctly.  He said they were designed to be able to pass through a car door and still expand properly in a bad guy.  The Hydra-Shok I was told by him wouldn't do this, as they were hydrostatic hollow points, and depended on a clear channel to expand properly.  Or something like that.  AT any rate, I use the Winchester Golden Goose rounds, or whatever they are called.  Haven't had to use them yet..., thankfully.
   Now, what is condition three?  I assume there is a condition one and two?  In Iraq we are briefed on green, amber, and red.  Green is no magazine in the magazine well, nothing in the chamber, the way we are told to carry at all times on base.  Amber is magazine in the well, nothing in the chamber, or ammo on the feed tray, nothing in the chamber.  Red is locked, cocked and ready to rock.  The open bolt weapons, such as the m-240 are required to be in Amber, until something bad happens.  This because of their tendency to fire even when on safe.  m-249s are in amber when we load up our Bradleys, again because of the same reasons, and go to red when on the ground.  The SAW gunners are quite adept at switching back and forth as fast as possible.  everything else goes on red, including m-9s.  No one that I have seen so far in the regular army carries a 1911. I hope that answers your question, Spanky.

Kent
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TwoGun

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2005, 08:08:20 AM »

Well, there has been extensive testing of hollowpoint ammo over the years.  Ammo companies are making great strides in designing bullets to expand reliably under a wide varitety of conditions.  Notice I didn't say all ammo all of the time will perform a specific way.  Any ammo has the potential to perform poorly under adverse conditions.

Winchester doens't make Golden Saber, that is a Remington product. Winchester's premium defensive ammo is called Ranger SXT. 
Most ammo sold to the general public is NOT designed to defeat hard cover such as a car door without expanding, while a lot of law  enforcement only ammo is.  The reason is becuase the vast bulk of civilian defensive shooting occur at very close range and civilians don't have a duty to confront a perp while they are driving off or while hiding behind something, unlike law enforcement.  While some civilian bullets will go through things like windshield glass, or car doors and still have enough umph to do some good, they are moslty deformed round when they hit, rather than normaly expanding hollowpoints.  This has been demonstrated again and again through various testing by both goverment and civilian agencies.

Condition one is cocked and lock.  A round in the chamber, the hammer in the fully cocked condition and the safety on.  Condition two is with the a round in the chamber and the hammer at rest.  In a 1911 the safety cannot be activated in this position.  Condition three is with a a magazine in the pistol but no round in the chamber and the hammer at rest.

While there are few enough 1911 in service anymore it amuses me to see that more and more special forces are asking for the .45 ACP pistol back.  Certainly the SOCOM pistol from H&K is popular with them.  Since the militrary uses non expanding ammunition it makes sense to have a larger caliber.

As you stated however there are some newer rounds that do not depend on a hollow point for expansion.  Cor-Bon now has an interesting bullet designe that was designed to have a full profle bullet so that it will feed more relaibly but it also has very consistant expansion in several different types of meida.  Such rounds hold great promise but are not widely available yet and have not been round long enough to have established any kind of a track record. 
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spanky

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2005, 01:40:18 PM »

Yes what Twogun said for you Green is Dangerous (Anyone in a WAR ZONE should be ready at all times even in the "Green Zone") Amber is condition 3 and Red is condition 1.

Keep u the good work Kentbob and let us know if we can do anything for you at all.

Hank
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threegun

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Re: As Combatants, Are You Wedded to a Particular Caliber or Action Type?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2005, 05:23:32 AM »

Twogun, You made the right decision in caliber choice. Always opt for the caliber that works best in the worst case scenario. In this case the 45acp. It is my belief that if a person is not capable of carrying a pistol condition one safely , then they probably shouldn't be carrying a gun to begin with. My Glocks are always a trigger pull away from firing as it is the only way to be 100 percent ready to go in the fastest possible time frame. Especially since all the advantages initially belong to the bad guy. Reacting is always slower than acting so adding any time to the reactee could prove deadly.

BTW, I chose my name because I shoot and enjoy threegun matches here in Florida. How did you come up with twogun. Did I mention how warm it is down here LOL?
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