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Author Topic: double sticks/siniwali training  (Read 1667 times)

mpbelzer

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double sticks/siniwali training
« on: October 29, 2004, 11:55:35 PM »

Greetings All,

I have been thinking about double stick training (sinawali from the Filipino perspective) and wonder how others out there use the method.  Here are my questions for you to ponder...

How much double stick  (siniwali) training is going on out there?  What percentage of your stick training do you set aside for double stick training (if at all)?  Have you taken it out of the usual simple drills that are first taught with them?  Anyone sparred with double sticks?  what was your experience?  How about empty hand applications from the stick movements?

Let me know!
Mike
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Kaliman33

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2004, 12:25:49 AM »

Hey Mike,
at my academy we do alot of double stick training, siniwali patterns, adecidario drills, disarming, single vs double, and we double stick spar (sumbrada and free)

Now it is not that we walk around with double sticks and the chances of fighting with them are slim, but they are a great training aid in developing left and right coordination, they get both side of your brain working, and it is a hell of alot of fun.

In the Inosanto - lacoste system the double stick is extensive and some of the patterns are complicated at first, but your coordination greatly improves. we even do empty hand vs double stick. some systems neglect this part but i think it is a mistake. Any more info i would be happy to share
Marc Halleck
NSA Martial Arts
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Hock

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2005, 01:59:45 PM »

So...
How many double stick stick patterns/drills are there?
How many in different systems?
Do we have enough experts reading this thread to comment?

I believe that I had to learn about 40 or 50 for the Black Belt test in Ernesto Presas Arnis De Mano.  I understand there many be more now?

I think I had to know about only five or so in Remy Presas Arnis, but there were dozens and dozens of hand, stick and knife applications from each of those five basic movements he expected you to know. (I last tested for 2nd Dan with him in 1996 so I cannot fully recall)

I think I had to learn about 20 to 30 in the Inosanto days circa 1987 thru 1993.
I know when you embrace the multiple systems there are many drills.

I have learned I cannot teach the police, common citizens or the military a session on double weapons. But I have a spot in my heart for them and I think they are very beneficial for those who do them. In fact I hope someday to really push the SDMS level called "Double sticks for co-ordination, speed, skill and timing"...JUST to fool these naysaying groups into taking a look at them.

Of course, the PAC course is the umbrella under which I can do all of them now, offically and unabashed...

How many?

Hock

Curran

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2005, 04:01:54 AM »

For me to spar with double sticks with me too much of an overload on the brain as I am beginner. However drilling with two sticks as Marc has rightly said helps improve body mechanics and in turn when translates to empty hand improves speed and power.

If you can block a stick coming at you at 200 m.p.h then you can bet on your life your empty hand will be just as good or better.

Hock has a DVD series which covers "Siniwali and Connection to the empty hand"

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Hock

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2005, 05:37:43 AM »

and remember...this is lost, last step in almost every system's double stick training...even the BIGGEST names...

You learn the pattern....TO DEFEAT THE PATTERN!

All too often the Filipino practitioners take great delight in learning the pattern and just doing it with a dance partner. They think its over!

You defeat the pattern by not doing that same pattern back against it.
You win with...
     
1) Impact disarms and other disarms
2) Impacts to wound and stun the body
3) battering takedowns
4) Kicking takedowns
5) Grappling with two sticks takedowns

All that comes AFTER you learn a pattern...
Learning the pattern is a dance class.
Taking down a man with two sticks is combat.

Hock

Nick Hughes

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2005, 07:56:42 AM »

Mike,

We use it straight off the bat for several reasons....

1) Great warm up as it gets both sides of the body working at once.

2) Great for co-ordination purposes.  (Really like how Hock starts of with the very simple one on the old PAC video and then builds on it increasing the difficutly as we go)

3) Great for training the left hand side of the body (assuming the student is a rightie.)

Also, it's not as impractical as some people think.  I've seen so many brawls break out in pool halls and a cue stick snapped in half is perfect for double stick.  I've had one of my LEO students take to carrying two ASPs with him when he works (he's still waiting for the chance to deploy them...came close one night but when he cracked 'em both open the BGs didn't want to play :() and, if I got in a fight with someone wielding a lump of wood, ball bat, etc and I managed to knock him out I'm sure as hell not going to leave his weapon on the ground for someone else to pick up...I'm going to grab it.  Also, we've had a spate of home invasions here recently...a broom stick, mop handle etc is just too long to wield effectively in the hallways of the average house...but it's easy wood to snap over your knee and again, you've got two sticks.

I train espada y daga for the same reason...as Hock correctly points out you're probably not going to be in a duel with a blade v blade but, what if I carry an ASP (I do BTW) and get into it with some latino gangbangers who pull knives.  Again, if I do an impact disarm and that knife hits the ground I'm going to try and pick it up so they can't get a hold of it.  I'd like to have some idea of what to do with the two different weapons now.

Finally, as kaliman pointed out...it's all great fun.
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Kentbob

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2005, 09:41:31 AM »

I work double sticks into my training primarily to cordinate the left side of my body with a weapon in it.  After having watched a few of Hock's dvds, I have a better idea of how to change from just dancing the pattern to flowing through some attacks out of the pattern.  I'm not all that good at it, but I am getting better.  I also do the sinawali that I learned with different weapons, my favorite being my barong and tomahawk.  As far as empty hands for the stick movements, by all means.  I can't do the six count that I learned with empty hands, but the first four count I every learned, I can.  It makes a good, umm...finishing in-close type drill, I think.  The strikes just seem to come from nowhere, and all of the sudden im in kissing distance doing hammerfist, palm strikes, and eye gouges without having to think about it.  Sort of like the "shredder" as I understand, but each one is a separate strike.  I also to espada y daga, to train my left and right, but instead of siniwali, I go through the increasing twelves with the stick in one hand, and the knive in the other.  Every time the stick hits a high angle, the knife strikes low, and vice versa.  This is something I learned from my Dad, who was a boxer, and from reading "The Tao of Jeet Kune Do", by Bruce Lee.  "Never be a headhunter", Dad always says.  Anyhoo, that is the extent of my double stick training.


Kent
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Chris

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2005, 11:39:51 AM »

IMO double stick training greatly improves your knife and empty hand skills. Anybody ever trained with Sonny Umpad? His inside center blast and fulcrum loads with double stick is a real eye opener for many FMA players that only have the outside sinwali patterns and all can be applied single stick. Double stick sinwalis should definately be played like single stick sumbradas, hubud/lubud or Tapi-Tapi, i.e. your techniques should be executed out of these drills. I believe these drills were never intended to be continuous sets of patty cake but like cover and slash and palasut it is an efficient way to train repetitions and to improve the almighty factor of "flow".
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nightronin

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sonny umpad
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2005, 01:25:25 PM »


I have an old issue of Full Contact which has an article on Sonny Umpad. Was a very informative article. Would like to know more about his material but havent had any luck.

John
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Boar Man

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2005, 08:54:55 PM »

Generally if someone comes to me and they want to learn arnis than the first thing I start them on is double stick.  Normally for the first month of lesons.  Then I'll move to single stick and then to empty hands, then back to double stick and so on until they have learned that level of material.

For those that want to learn the FMA I believe strongly in the double stick since I believe it can (is) a good foundation for learning...
1) coordination skills

2) Empty hand skills (Hock's tying together of GM Ernesto's DS combative drills with the Wooden man/Statue drills, and GM Remy's EH Sinawali drills plus the block check and counter)

3) Disarming: the double stick disarms skills of hitting the person and the placement of the stick after the hit and what type of disarm can occur sets up the teaching for single stick disarming.

4) Wrapping of the stick: the wrapping of the stick sets up the abaniko corto techniques, the punyo punches, the empty hand wraps, various locking and disarming techniques.

5) And of course the double baston sets up the espada y daga later on as well.

However like Hock says the average LEO or civilian who wants to learn how to defend themselves will not see the benift of the double stick training so I won't teach it to them.  They don't have time.  To me I only teach this material if they are serious students and want to learn the FMA, and this is generally other martial artists.

As to a number that I each I havene't a clue.  Generally I like to try and group them together with a foundation of Single Stick Sinawali, Chambered Sinawali, X Pattern, Double Stick Sinawali.  Then in other levels bring in the concepts of reversing the patterns, or adding in the loop (redondo) hits, double strikes during the hits, and combining the drills together etc. etc..

Plus teaching the two verses one stick, or two verses staff or something like that to further challange the student or myself for that matter  :)

Mark     
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Chris

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2005, 01:37:04 PM »

The only material by Sonny that I know of is a book on balisong he and a couple other guys wrote. It is available from Paladin Press. Sonny doesn't do any videos, he doesn't like the quality of instruction he can pass on due to camera angles and such. Aside from attending a few seminars he did at Jesse Glover's gym in Seattle WA and Datu Kelly Worden's gym in Tacoma WA years ago, I don't hear much about Sonny. I know some of Inosanto's guys used to go train with him. I don't even know of anyone that presents his material in their own videos. He did borrow liberally from Serrada however and I see his and their close quarter stuff are similar. I have to say that when I show Sonny's material to other FMA instructors they all, without exception, add it their own curriculum. The material greatly complements the exterior lines that all FMA practitioners employ. His blade work is a mind blower and the man moves with more grace than anyone else I have seen. I do hope that if anyone does show Sonny's material on their videos they get his permission, as it is unique, not like so much of the universal techniques that all FMA have.
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eric ericksen

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2005, 09:52:55 AM »

It is great to see this string go on.

I have ALL of Hocks work, and a strong martail background...however the stick work is new. Im not totally getting the Philipino ideas yet.

1 stick--can do-----
dos manos --is killer....
BUT when I try even the simple bar room clearer with 2 sticks even the dog looks at me puzzled and ashamed...

Im trying hard to become ambidexterous...
I have noticed struggling to get the concepts down however that my standup striking game is smoother..

I beleive this is worth noting--because as Hock mentioned the ground and pound is coming to those with 2 sticks, 1 stick or even no sticks.

Does any one have any advice for me--to ease the transition?
I am totally un cooridinated...

But thanks Hock for putting out truly easy to follow stick drills and training methodologies.

Respectfully,
Eric Ericksen

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usks1

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2005, 03:36:19 AM »

Hello Erik,
Here are a couple of things I have figured out about my own personal double stick journey. I did the double stick drills hoping to become closer to ambidextrous. What ended up happening is that I got fairly good at the double stick drills, but when I put the stick in my left hand I really wasn't any better than before.

If you want to truly get your weaker hand to come up to speed, you gotta work it solo. Do the command and mastery drills on both sides. Work your 12 aoa with both hands, and build up from there.

As you know, there is no magic pill. ( at least I haven't found it yet ). We just need to put in the time, and if you are dilligent you will see improvement.

Keep the double stick drills going though, when your weak hand gets better, so will your understanding and skill level at them too.

Hope this helps a little

Dean.
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eric ericksen

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2005, 04:19:44 PM »

Hey Dean,
Thanks for the training ideas. 
 I guess sometimes the obvious answers are the ones we personally dont see.

Im softpaw rattan slinging tonight...

Thats one aspect I like about Hocks forum...the cyber-citizens here really have ideas and try to assist each other.

Some other forums are Hero or style worship and patting each other on the back--without any knowledge changing hands.

Thanks again...will let you know how it progresses.
Regards,
Eric Ericksen
 
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Boar Man

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Re: double sticks/siniwali training
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2005, 07:30:28 AM »

Eric

What really helped me in the transition from EH to DS was Hock's combative drills off of the 14 AOA feed.  Hock taught the EH application of the drill in the form of the Statue/Wooden Man drills.  Over the years he has expanded this somewhat but the core of the drill and the concepts are in the CQC course.  But from a DS perspective here goes.

1)  Same side block and hit with the other stick
2)  Cross body block and hit with the other stick
3)  Double tap and hit (Same side block, cross body block and hit (with the first stick).
4)  Same side block, parry (underneath if a high strike, over top if a low strike) and then hit.

Feeder feeds a high forehand strike or a low forehand strike and the defender defends using one of those strikes/responses.

Then from here you can use the same format to work on disarming skills, wrapping the SH, and later on add in different types of strikes and or follow ups.  In time when you feel confident enough in your skill level you can do the clearing motions that you are talking about or the sinawali patterns as you block the incoming strike and respond how you see fit.

Mark
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