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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 21, 2012, 08:15:43 PM
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Author Topic: Hock's firearm stuff  (Read 944 times)

TAC

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Hock's firearm stuff
« on: November 01, 2004, 07:05:00 AM »

Hi

I never did cover the gun stuff with Hock so please forgive the stupid question...

I was wondering, what's that thing I see in pics of Hock where he's holding the pistol in one hand and has his forearm across his chest?

Thanks

Sharif
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aahlersmeyer

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Re: Hock's firearm stuff
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2004, 07:30:33 AM »

It is just a fist, nothing more.  He is keeping his "non-gun hand" up in the "window of combat" ready to strike, if need be.  You would not necessarily need a fist, an open and ready hand would be just as prctical...if not more.
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Trembula

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Re: Hock's firearm stuff
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2004, 09:22:32 AM »

There are four reasons for keeping the hand/forearm on the chest when shooting from a one handed grip...

1. "Minimization of wounds" - although one would hope that the enemy misses, far better for the enemy's bullet to expend a significant amount of its energy on your forearm/upperarm than your heart or spinal column. This sounds pretty desperate, but I have read accounts of people actually doing this - see Cassius Clay's autobiography (note, NOT the boxer...).

2. Keeping the empty hand in the window of combat like aahlersmeyer said. The hand is closer to the "office" (area directly in front of your centerline in the center of your chest) that you perform all of your reloads, malfunction drills, etc. in.

3. Tensioning the torso/arms. By locking the empty hand arm in tight to your torso (almost like a "chamber" from karate) and creating muscular tension in your shooting arm and tensing the muscles in your trunk, you can significantly improve your recoil control and steadiness for faster and more accurate shooting. Massad Ayoob has a good description of this with photos in one of his "Stressfire" books. (Excellent resource for beginning shooters)

4. Finally, keeping the empty hand/arm on your chest, particularly during the draw stroke and when reholstering helps keep your from accidentally shooting yourself. It is very easy to flag your empty hand with your muzzle while drawing or reholstering - this is a huge safety concern for beginning shooters but even experienced shooters struggle with this occaisionally. The solution is lots of practice "by the numbers" on your drawstroke until you get the "motor memory" to reduce the liklihood of flagging yourself. The idea on the range is to put holes in the target (and in combat, holes in the bad guy) - not yourself.

Dan
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TAC

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Re: Hock's firearm stuff
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2004, 07:36:28 AM »

Thanks guys - that helped a lot!

But one more thing... Does Hock not teach the weaver stance? From my brief experience with pistols, single handed shooting is far less acurate.

Thanks again

Sharif
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: Hock's firearm stuff
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2004, 08:44:59 AM »

Hock doesn't really teach any specific firearms "stance".  If you need to learn basic gun handling and marksmanship he'll point you to Jeff or Steve Krystek or a reputable gun school . His goal is more to teach you to fight with whatever platform you're used to.
I've heard Hock say something to the effect of "I hope and pray you'll be able to get a two-handed grip and align your sights perfectly but I fear that it's not likely in a close range gunfight".

You may be too close to use an extended two-handed platform or you may need your support hand to ward off an attack as you access your gun.
The CQC group trains in (and against) left and right one handed, two handed bladed (Weaver variants) and squared off (isoceles) positions.

In the chaos of close, dynamic shooting situations you will likely flow from one "stance" to another as you try to keep the gun aligned during movement.

A two handed grip certainly makes recoil control easier but in some situations you may not have the option.
As to pure accuracy keep in mind that, in close range combative shooting, a handspan sized group delivered rapidly is of more value than a ragged hole delivered at leisure.

Chuck
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TAC

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Re: Hock's firearm stuff
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2004, 05:52:49 AM »

Thanks Chuck
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Hock

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Re: Hock's firearm stuff
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2004, 01:37:36 PM »

The arm/hand across the chest....thing? Many sources. Many reasons.

    In the last five years I have seen hundreds, maybe over a thousand shooters interact with all kinds of simulated ammo...paintball...sims...pellets...yes, even rubber bands! I have staged all kinds of scenarios. And in these scenarios, I have seen range vets suddenly shoot one-handed and novices shoot two-handed! All from situational stress. Seems like decades of training go out the window with a liittle interactive fire.
 
    In the big picture I just can't officially declare one was wrong and one was right. People just do what they do sometimes despite the training. I think it is important to see what each person does under their own sense of stress and use that as a platform to build on. Such is impossible on a grand scale of running groups, academies and militaries through schedules. That has never been good for the individual.

    I myself have mucho training hours one-hand shooting from the late 60s and early 70s. Taught to me by old FBI agents and even old Army guys. I throw that pistol out, center-line and under my nose with a tight or extended arm and shoot. It is still the most comfortable way for me. I qualified expert many times like this, even with a snub-nose .38 on the 50-round courses! And, old methodology or not...I will kill you this way. You may kill me right back your way! As Mike Gillette like to say, "Its all different shades of terrible."

If you make me shoot at something 15 feet or so away, I am compelled to grab that gun with two hands, find that sight and do the usual thing. Hey, the oldtimers taught that too!

But two-handed grips:
       -steady the weapon on target
       -reduce recoil
       -serve as weapon retention

All very noble and smart. It is just hard to get some people to do this, even some of the heavily trained, when bullets fly! I do wish you could always use two hands and find thise sights! Get that Zen breath and squeeze....but...

   I always joke around and call one-hand shooting "God-shooting," as in it seems so natural and instinctive. This seems to take over years of two-hand range shooting in some people under combat stress. It cannot be ignored!

   So, in the sciences of one-hand shooting, the "other" arm was primarily up to deflect rounds from your chest. The flight paths of bullets can be fickle. If you take one to the hand? It may travel down your arm instead entering your chest or throat. Your free-hand elbow is down a bit and may cover that damn opening in the armpit of your bullet-proof vest, or your heart if you are vest-less.

   One-hand? two-hand? Structured range stances? When we do mutilple opponent, close-quarter, sims drils (Three-way-Splitters I call them) the shooter is running around like a football player shooting and fending off mulitple attackers charging with sticks, knives and guns from many angles, before and after they are shot (see Training Mission Six DVD set). This shooter is absolutely STANCELESS and doing the best he can to stay alive.

   Oops gotta run! But you get most of the idea...

Hock
 

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