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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • May 21, 2012, 08:18:09 PM
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Author Topic: Unarmed Combat tactics  (Read 1025 times)

Bri Thai

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Unarmed Combat tactics
« on: December 08, 2005, 08:54:46 AM »

As I understand things so far, Hock's system names the main targets for unarmed work as the eyes (inncluding the nose area), the throat/neck, the cojjonnes and the top of the feet.

If this is so, what about the tried and tested jawline?
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Hock

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2005, 11:03:06 AM »

Great question and this gets me to talk about a lot of stuff! (also I save all the texts of this stuff and use it for essays and articles later! It is quite helpful.)

First off, aiming for the nose area and the throat area…well the jaw is in between. The muzzle area. With jaw-line targeting-specifically we are probably talking primarily about:

-   the chin jab
-   punching the jaw in straights and hooks

(The Level 2 Palm Strike Module has the chin jab in it. The Level 5 Punch Module has the jaw-line straight and hook punch in it)

The mentioned main target list
1)   Eyes, nose area (shooter’s triangle
2)   Throat area-whole circumference of the neck (jaw too?)
3)   Groin area
4)   Top of the feet/ ankle area

…very, very universal and simple while in standing confrontations. I was taught this in the US army and coincidentally in Parker Kenpo Karate! These target spots are accessible in stand-offs and maybe more importantly when someone is grabbed. The old expression was …”if you are grabbed, at least two, maybe three of these targets are available.” I liked the streamlined list because it included the standoff ’showdown” as well as the vital grabbed positions, front, sides and back. Eyes, throat, groin, top of the feet. Citizens are very concerned about the grab.

(We quickly advise that the top of the foot area is not available in ground fighting, but these are great ground targets too.)

Does this mean that you shouldn’t hit anywhere else? Of course not.
Should you kick the knee? Of course.
Hit the kidney if he is turned? Sure.

Should we a make a basic list of 8, 10, 20… 30 targets on up to the hundreds in Chinese pressure point strikes? I just feel uncomfortable naming all that stuff. I mean, there was a break-off point where I thought-if I start naming “this or that…then I HAVE to name…and so the list goes..

I personally, really like hammer-fisting the back of the upper neck in clinches and ground fighting. REALLY like it. I didn’t list that target spot though. That doesn’t mean in a situation, in a position it might be the very best thing.

The list above is a universal basis. In other words, if a 100-pound woman hit those listed targets against a 200-pound man, they have a good chance of getting a response. If a 100-pound woman chin-jabbed or hook-punched a 200-pound man? He may laugh at her. I think that is the premise of the survival list. Now, work the number in a sliding scale of strength and size…200 vs. 200. 200 vs. 150…and so on…

I mean, if a muscled-up, rage-cage, modern UFC fighter is slobbering and rushing at me in a low half tackle charge…I’m passing on the chin jab (bad angle) and passing on the jaw-line hook (head down and shoulders up) and working off that list off above…If he foolishly gives me that angle…maybe.

While the first three UC levels are set up to be a citizen self-defense crash course, the entire object of the 10 level Unarmed Combatives course is too teach all the good strikes and kicks, standing and on the ground, then positional and situational escapes, takedowns and throws. (The Level 2 Palm Strike Module has the chin jab in it. The Level 5 Punch Module has the jaw-line hook punch in it)

This is a college course. A “black belt” course. After one graduates, they start their own “careers.” Pick their favorite targets, make their lists and programs. It is never my job to tell anyone what your favorite survival techniques are. One size does not fit all. It is the student’s job to experiment and make their favorite list, based on their size, shape strength and skill. And based smartly on who they think their enemies will be. My top ten list will not and should not be yours. Maybe they will be…mostly, but maybe not.

So...chin jab away!

I’ll break this up and rehash some jaw-line punching stuff later…

(I love this kind of techno talk!)
Hock



« Last Edit: December 08, 2005, 11:08:32 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Bri Thai

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2005, 02:46:27 PM »

Thanks for that.  I've only seen TM 1 from the UC course at the moment.  I have them "hidden away for Chrsitmas" and cannot admit to my wife that I have taken a sneaky peak.  She would take out all my primary targets and more....... ;D

But thanks for the clarification.  It straightens things out for me.

My initial impression of the DVDs?  Well, they're very professional and easily worth the money, so my thanks.  Hopefully see you in March,April - whenever you get over here.

Heres another question, while I'm at it.  The groin kick.  Is it just a flick?  Personally I've been ramming them home in training as per a Thai Boxer's style power shot.  And, what are your thoughts to those who feel that it is an over rated target?
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2005, 03:28:15 PM »

Very simple: Eyes, Throat, Groin, Top of the Feet- the only places on the human body that a man cannot strenghten through psyical exercise.  A very srtong psychological advantange- reduce your opponent to a pair of eyes, an Adam's apple, a pair of balls and two exposed fragile feet.  This is cheating 101, take the ball and run with it!

Ciao

Joe
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tlouis

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2005, 06:55:00 AM »

Great post Hock. Its interesting that most everyone whom I respect breaks down the targeting in a similiar way. I agree one of the listed targets will be open. Hooks and straight punches to the jaw line? You had better be in the same weight division or sucker punch the guy and be very accurate. Even Roberto Duran, who was knocking out everyone ib sight, couldn't even knock anyone down when he went up 1 weight class! I just read a promo by a well known SD guy featuring a story about one of his students, a young lady, who incapacitated a bad guy with a radial nerve strike! And I have seen guys runs seminars based on such.
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Hock

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2005, 09:17:44 AM »

Targets...When on the ground.

We hit the ground? My mission is to hunt your eyes, your throat and your groin. You may be flipping about in daring moves of brilliant South American (snd japanese and Catch, and...) wonder, seeking the next chain of series of..., but I am not. I am grabbing and hitting at those targets. (Welcome to 1985 ground fighting!)

Next, I thinking about fingers and hair. The lost art of hair pulling is lost because allmost all grapplers have short or bald heads, but the real world we fight in is hairy. I got out of a real jam in the Army by breaking a guy's pinky as he was choking me.

It is refreshing to see the modern UFC, rage-cagers bashing the hell out of their ground opponents, literally destroying the Brazilan format. It is redeeming. We older guys knew the ground fight simply had to return to this pounding emphasis. (wonder when the United States Army will catch on?)

Add dirty tricks and weapons to the hard core, rage-cage training format and then you have the evolution near complete.

Eyes area (shooter's triangle-eyes and nose)
Throat (whole neck area)
Groin,

then...

fingers
hair

Targeting all joint cranks. locks, submissions are secondary levels of training

Hock

Milldog1776

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2005, 09:19:56 AM »

Heres another question, while I'm at it.  The groin kick.  Is it just a flick?  Personally I've been ramming them home in training as per a Thai Boxer's style power shot.  And, what are your thoughts to those who feel that it is an over rated target?

Hi Bri Thai. I am not speaking for Hock or anyone else...but I personally teach it both ways. There may be a time and place where a front leg groin kick that flicks into the sack is smarter than rearing back and letting go with the rear. In my JKD class, this front "snap" is of course one of our major kicks. This snap is more of a "set-up" than a knock-out. We use it as a fight starter, not a fight ender. Use it to provoke a reaction, then blast in with elbows, knees, tire iron, whatever.
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Bri Thai

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2005, 09:25:24 AM »


Heres another question, while I'm at it.  The groin kick.  Is it just a flick?  Personally I've been ramming them home in training as per a Thai Boxer's style power shot.  And, what are your thoughts to those who feel that it is an over rated target?

Thanks milldog.  Anyone else to chip in?  Over the years I've seen people appear to over rate AND under rate this target.  I have had success with it myself though but, on occasion, it has had no effect.
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Professor

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2005, 10:50:51 AM »


Heres another question, while I'm at it.  The groin kick.  Is it just a flick?  Personally I've been ramming them home in training as per a Thai Boxer's style power shot.  And, what are your thoughts to those who feel that it is an over rated target?

Thanks milldog.  Anyone else to chip in?  Over the years I've seen people appear to over rate AND under rate this target.  I have had success with it myself though but, on occasion, it has had no effect.


Nothing is Flicked....Subject of another tread that I was going to start....I'll try shortly.

If you're going to hit....don't waste your time about it.....HIT and KICK...power rules.
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JimH

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2005, 11:36:26 AM »

I would also go with power over flick.

Many times various teachers said,ball of the foot to target,toes forward ,instep to target,scoop kick (since many kicked behind the target),kick and draw the toes forward and pull the groin/testicles out,toes of boots or shooes into target.

If we make the first strike low navel down we will draw the upper body forward and this will place the Groin in perfect position for a power strike,kick,punch or Slap/Grab
(if we kick to the inside of the thigh and instead of pulling back we continue to drive,(allowing our leg to slide up the inside thigh) with power to the groin that should bring about the desired result)
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Wardog

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2005, 12:21:19 PM »

I would like to wade in on the eyes issue. it is one I have had problems with. The eyes are definitely vulnerable and will easily incapacitate someone but they are not a viable target in a parking space dispute, etc. You will have a hard time convincing a judge you were within your rights blinding a guy for life over a parking spot. Not to mention that the eyes, even when trained for, become a second thought strike zone. People are willing to knock someone out, break their nose, arm or leg to save themselves but psychologically many freeze at the prospect of blinding someone for life. Women in rape situations have even hesitated to go for the eyes because of the permanent , irreparable damage it will do. While I will gladly blind or kill a man in a home invasion or wielding a weapon I would be hardpressed to do it in any other situation. I always have issues with guys who's answer to everything is "I would just take his eyes" etc.
Useful in certain situations, yes, viable in most, no.
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tlouis

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2005, 01:04:19 PM »

Why is anyone getting into a physical altercation over a parking spot? Amother"my dick is bigger than yours" ridiiculous self defense scenario. On the groin strikes- they work. I have been on both ends.But power is essential to really stop someone, IMO.
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Wardog

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2005, 01:12:16 PM »

Exactly, I would not start a fight with a guy over a parking spot but that was my point, you better have more than "take his eyes' when some guy insists on having that "my dick is bigger than yours" retarded altercation. Whether it's over a parking spot, looking at his chick, whatever. You may want to walk away but he may not let you. So while having the "eyes" as a primary self defense target may be fine in other scenarios, permanently blinding a guy in this case won't sail legally. Also, as I said, even in the worst cases some people find permanently removing someones vision inconceivable or at least will hesitate so long that it may be too late by the time they come to terms with it.
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Wardog

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2005, 01:20:39 PM »

Speaking of stupid altercations. One day a young guy wanted to kick the crap out of my 70 year old father because he asked him to not leave his shopping cart in the middle of the parking lot.  How's that for "My dick, stupid altercations".  Only because the guys girlfriend started to freak out on him for being a dick did it not progress. 
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Hock

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Re: Unarmed Combat tactics
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2005, 01:30:24 PM »

It really is a common perception that all eye attacks blind, and that blinding is too severe. Most people think of a WWII commando permantly blinding a street begger. What does Dimitri's t-shirt have on it? A creepy and bad drawing of a bloody, removed eyeball on a finger? ! Jeez! Therefore, thanks to these images,  the baby is thrown out with the bath water.

BUT! There are:
   flicks,
   jabs,
   eye gauges.

In all of my time in the business, all the cases I've worked, all the cases I have seen, an eye flick causes only very temp damage. One time there was a guy who had his eye cut from a sharp fingernail. This case was postponed until his eye was evaluated and the Doc's cleared him. No damage. healed. The case was dropped by the DAs office.

Flicks come in hooking from all four corners of the clock, top, sides and bottom, touching the ocular cavity (sorry, you know I like to avoid such "heady" terms) and the eye. The lid usually closes in a micro-second. But the twitch reflex can jolt the head and well...it's just some good stuff inside a common fight. I have done this in cop scrapes so many times I could not tell you. A flick across the eye area. Zero problem.

The jab is the next dangerous. It comes straight in and well...it can do more damage. But, it is not as bad as a gouge.

The drilling gouge is reserved for rapists and serious, serious situations. You cannot have eye gouges in party fights, persistant street beggers, etc. Technically, the military versions involve holding the head as best one can so the head will not buck back and you can plunge your thumbs into the eyes! SERIOUS!  I have written a lot on this. If a woman does it on a parking lot against a man her size or bigger? The law really grants a lot of leeway. Women even shoot guys more and get away it where men would be hassled and questioned.

Grappling wise - just pressure in and around the eyes are a real distractor. And what a body manuever-er! This is magic on the ground. And of course, this is what ground fighters belittle and bicker about so defensively. But if you want to try to distract someone's ground game? Jack in and around their eyes. I use these pressures inside combat scenarios with other strategies. And I have seen many vet, ground, black belts stalled out by complete rank amatuers using an eye hunt. Knocked off their game. Is the fight over? No. Obviously, they need more.  For example...

http://www.cqcmagazine.com/2005-fall/ground-pound-escape/index.htm
or
http://www.cqcmagazine.com/jul-05/leg-pinch/index.htm

...inside a whole string of things.

I cannot beat guys like Jim McCann or my insane buddy Tom Barnhart on the ground or just two examples, without such cheats. But even in practice I can get a positional and distraction edge on them by hardly touch near their eyes. People might say, but that is in practice! But being the victim of such, even in light practice is quite telling.

McCann trains like a freaken madman many days a week with his group of madmen and constantly reports how anything near his eyes screws up his plans..

But, I would tell anyone to flick at the eyes of an attacker when the going gets scary. I was taught that in Parker Kenpo over thirty years ago as a set-up. Multiple flicks. Tony Blaur popularized it with marketing tricks and his downlines do too, trying to give it new and neat names to distance themselves from the lineages they came from...

Use of Force progression. Moral, ethical, legal.

Hock


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