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[jaybo]

Recently I went over to Alliance Martial Arts web sight and found that Pete Kautz and friend have produced a DVD of Medieval Unarmed Combat.
As someone who has a facination with H2H from that era but only a vage idea on how to perform the techniques I just couldn't resist so I sent off for the DVD along with a work book.

When I got the DVD I watched it, then watched it again, then again!!
GREAT STUFF!! The DVD covers level 1 Basic strikes and throws, the twelve basic techiques of unarmed combat.

Everything covered would work just as well today as it did 500 years ago
and blends in perfectly with Hock CQC material. Some of the things coverd I have see before, double neck strike, chin jab, the take downs are alot different but very workable.

My only complaint is that the quality of the camera work is not what it could be. Mr. Kautz if your out there PLEASE consider getting your nexst DVD filmed and edited by a pro. with dedicated equipment or consider a serious upgrade in your camera equipment.       

All in all I REALLY like this DVD and the book that comes with it, Mr. Kautz states that he is going to do a series of DVDs on Medieval unarmed combat and Dagger fighting, yes Pete yes, more, more.

Who said that the west never developed martial arts like the east, the really sad thing is that this 500 year old fighting system is vastly superior to what is being taught to most of our combat troops today.   
     

[Wardog]

It is not a hard and fast rule but I generally will never order a dvd I can't see clips from. To get an idea of the instruction level, quality etc. Especially something as questionably represented as "Medieval Martial Arts". Were these techniques discovered on a long lost Beta tape in a Castle in England? Sounds far-fetched and without a visual to even gage the quality ...no way Jose!!

[Bri Thai]

Actually this art was preserved on very very thin sheets of slate.  The figures were painstakingly drawn in chalk, frame by frame, and the the sheets "flicked" through to get the sense of movement.

This is true.

[jaybo]

No actualy this stuff comes from very old manuscripts and fight books that have been in private collections and mueseums. Alot of people both hear and in Europe have been slowly reconstucting the old systems of fighting and surprize!! they probably work a hell of a lot better than a lot of the so called new stuff. (Having personaly seen P.P.C.T. fail about half of the time it's used in a state pen.)

Pete Kautz never claimed to have discovered any of this he has worked with a lot of other people to reconstuct the techniques and has given them credit where it was due.

Nothing fancy, just easy and effective techniques some that I haven't seen anywhere else. (And I know I haven't seen everything out there.)         

His teaching format is very much like Hocks and that's a good thing.
For what it's worth a lot of the old Fight Books have been translated and reproduced and are avalable from Paladin Press, Amazon, Chivalry Book Shelf and other sources.
 

[Wardog]

There are H2H techniques from Medieval times that are unlike anything today? Give me one....any one. I just find that hard to believe.

[Hawkeye]

I'm no expert but I've been looking into the medieval stuff for a few years and am a member of Chicago Swordplay Guild. In CSG, we practice medieval grappling (abrazare), dagger, 2 hand sword, 1 hand sword and so on.

I've trained with Pete Kautz at several seminars and he's a good instructor. The material of his Medieval H2H is not unlike other legitimate material. I find that somewhat affirming. Chin jab, head twist take down, strike to carotid artery, etc. All fairly basic but Pete put it all together in a nice, basic training package. You don't need it if you're training Hock's system but it's till interesting He doesn't say it's new or unavailable any where else. Just his take on it.

I think it's cool to be able to find techniques I know to work and locate them in manuscripts from medieval Germany or Italy.

In my opinion, the biggest difference is level of force. In medieval times if someone's robbing you, you kill him. Now, if you defeat the robbery the most you can (probably) do is hold him for the police.

Dan

[raswic]

Well here they are. These are two of the medival H2H manuals.
Passchen's 1659 Ring-Buch:
ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_steenput_1200.html
Petter' s Ring-Buch reprint from 1674
ejmas.com/jwma/articles/2000/jwmaart_steenput_1000.html
Clip and paste the URL's. There are things here you would not belive. The Petter manual is better pics, as it was illustrated by an actual artist, but both are excellent. I study and teach medival and rennasance MA. Besides these I use ancient Pancration based on studies of art and lit of the day, not the modern MMA stuff, and BKB, Anglo/Celtic wrestling. What is amazing is the amount of grappling/ striking that is involved in the sword work. I can get more of the old manuscripts if anyone is interested.

[Hock]

This research...it is all one more step in the enlightenment that escapes so many.

Behind all good systems, beyond the countries and dynasties, is the true essense of combat. Generic. Universal. Behind the curtain is this truth.

Everyone likes their favorite flavor, for who knows what prediliction? But the truth in combat is beyond Japanese, Filipino, European, Isreali, etc...beyond all that.

Once you grab one? I think you grab a hook that binds you into a certain motif, look, feel, gandmaster, sensei-whatever, that does not allow for complete free thought and evolution.

I like to warn my friends not to trade in one trap for another. But if someone like Pizza or Chinese food, who am I to tell them to just eat the meat?

Hock

[jmech]

I spent about a year or so training with a gentleman by the name of Bob Charron in Madison WI.  Bob taught a medieval system from an Italian named Fiore DeLiberi, and the techniques were from Fiore's "Flos Duellatorum", which Bob was writing a translation to.  Although it was primarily swordfighting, there was a significant amount of time spent on empty hand and dagger fighting as well.  During the training, I was reminded of Hock's statement-"all of the good techniques are found in every good system".  The nice thing about the western arts is the lack of the "hocus pocus" so common in the asian arts.

Bob always spoke highly of Pete's teaching.  I have always wanted to go to one of his seminars to train with him.

BTW: wardog-I don't think anyone was saying there are medieval techniques that are not taught today.  I believe the comment was that the medeival systems are more effective than some of the so called "new control systems" being taught, specifically to law enforcement, which are more concerned about avoiding lawsuits than subduing the attacker.

Joe

[raswic]

jmech is right. And Hock I love this

This research...it is all one more step in the enlightenment that escapes so many.

Behind all good systems, beyond the countries and dynasties, is the true essense of combat. Generic. Universal. Behind the curtain is this truth.

I find it amazing that people are amazed that the medival Europeans did have a systemized form of martial art. In fact the term "martial art" comes from the English Masters of Defence and can be traced back to the 1500's. It was the term they used to describe what they taught. 

[jaybo]

The techniques demonstrated by Peter Kautz in his DVD come from the 14th century sword master Johannes Lliechtenauer, I'm aware of Fiore DeLiberi's work but do not know of any books that contain his unarmed techniques. (It would be nice if someone would do a good DVD of his system as well.) hint hint.

The techniques demonstrated by Peter Kautz look like they could have come straight out of Fairbairn's "Get Tough" simple, easy to learn and brutal. I wouldn't even think about doing any of this stuff unless deadly force was called for.

I will still stand by my comment that this style of fighting is far more effective than what is being taught the rank and file U.S. Army Infantry Soldier, the few of them that are being taught and H2H at all.
(Note: No I am not going to start that whole argument over the bjj style of fighting AGAIN so don't anyone even try.)

I knew there was some interest on this topic, aparently more than I thought.

[jaybo]

Perhaps I should rephrase part of my last post, I should have said I would not use SOME of the techniques unless deadly force was called for.

Not all of the techniques shown were meant ot be leathal or cause seious injury.

[jmech]

jaybo,

Bob Charon, to my knowledge, is still working on an english translation of the Flos Dueletorum.  Check Chivalry Bookshelf's website (dont know url right now), I think thats who will eventually distribute it.  they also sell several books on other medeival martial arts.

Joe

[Rawhide]

Well see, if you all had come to the fantastic 2000 HTH combat camp in Dallas, TX you'dve got a taste of ol' Pete and his stuff.  Really cool and, as stated above, generic.  He has a great atlent fro teaching as well.

[raswic]

There is a video of Fiore's manual. It is a two tape collection done by an Italian school with English overdub. I'll find the info on it. I have seen it and honestly wasn't impressed. They did every tech as the illustrations were drawn. BAD!!!! They weren't realists when these were drawn. But I am familiar with Bob and some of his work. Should be better then what I saw. Fiore does unarmed vs. dagger but also has a section on wrestling. I don't think Fiore wresttled much from what he teaches.  Lichtenauer's stuff is real good, Petter's manual is a decendant of Lichtenauer's. His unarmed vs. dagger is some of the best. Must note here that the dagger is not what people think. They are usually Rondel daggers. No edges, only point for piercing chainmail. This is why you see tech where someone is grabbing the blade of a knife. You actually can. Makes for real cool demos in front of general public. Shame Bob is using Chivalry, while they put out great info, their books fall apart. Terrible binding. But I do look forward to his book.