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Author Topic: Jam!  (Read 2021 times)

ted murphy

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Jam!
« on: December 13, 2005, 02:10:16 PM »

I was helping run an IDPA shoot at a local range when a group of friends who are all police officers for their town came out.  I've known one of the men for a while now, a very nice guy and capable shooter.  The two other fellows were new to IDPA, but qualified officers and pretty accurate shooters.

The one fellow's turn came up and he draw and shot at this close target from retention, and had a limp wrist jam.  I watched in shock as he raised his weak hand, looked over his shoulder and  yelled "Jam!".

This happened two more times.

I've noticed some of the other things these fellows do, like a rapid holstering after they finish shooting- are what I think tactics thought to keep the range officers safer at the range.  I suspect they don't want people clearing jams on the range for some reason, and instituted that mentality.  Still, I'm suprised they did not beat malfunction on drills into their cadets.

Ted

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TwoGun

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2005, 08:01:54 PM »

Hi Ted, I'm new on the forums but thought I'd reply to this one.  It is an unfornuate truth that many things trainees do in a course of fire on the range become trained response under stress.  Years ago there was a documented case of a FBI agent fresh out of the acadmey that found himself in a firefight.  He shot his pistol dry and then instead of reloading and continueing the fight, he bent over and started picking up his brass as he had always been taught to do at the range.  He did not survive the fight.

Assuming this was an actucal event it cleary demonstrates that when things go south we don't rise to the occasion but rather revert to out level of training.
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Hock

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2005, 01:16:21 PM »

He shot his pistol dry and then instead of reloading and continueing the fight, he bent over and started picking up his brass as he had always been taught to do at the range.  He did not survive the fight.

That story has reached urban myth levels of popularity BUT IT IS TRUE and dates back to the 1980's, with a city cop found dead beside his car with a handful of spent shells in his hand, where he caught the shells rather than letting them hit the ground from some range czar's silly rules.

Probably there have been true stories since, like it. The stories diminshed however, with the general acceptance of semi-autos over wheel guns.

The jam story is very sad and there are many stories like. There is a tale of a LT. in combat in Afghanistan doing the same kind of thing...

He was ahead of his troops. The enemy in advance of them all opened up and the US troops in the rear started shooting back.

The LT stood up and ordered Cease fire! Cease Fire. Shooter's down range! As though a range rule had been violated. He quickly ducked.

Hock

TwoGun

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2005, 05:47:13 PM »

Yep, while I'm all for range safety, instructors have to be very careful. Fewer and fewer young people grow up shooting and thier first experince may be at a military or law enforcement range.  In the world of serious firearms engagements, a bad habit can get you killed.  And if your only exposure to firearms is under the watchful eye of a range master who instills great marksmanship but poor tactical habits, you could wind up dead.

IDPA is great venue for testing yourself and practice, certainly better for serious defense than USPSA type shooting, but I believe even it has a few flaws.  The tactical reload is one I'm not convinced of yet.  Under stress with all the adrenaline I find it difficult to believe that very many people could perform the prescribed tactical reload in a timely and efficient fashion. I've seen it bobbled too many times.  But I'm kind of splittin hairs here.
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spanky

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2005, 06:48:31 PM »

that story originated from Newhall, Ca from I believe 1973 or'74 it is commonly called The Newhall Massacre, when 4 CHP officers were killed in a gunfight by the bad guys (2). I have to story in one of my American Handgunner magazines written by Masaad Ayoob. This incident is one that started the whole officer survival training movement.

Their were many mistakes made by the officers involved they used 6" barreled .357 Magnum revolvers and qualified on the range with .38 wadcutter ammo (very weak) but easy to see the holes in the paper. The officers carried their magnum loaded with .357 158 semiwadcutter loads on the street but had never fired ANY magnum loads in training. The officers were required to police their brass after every stage of fire. Their were no speedloaders available then, 2 of the officers actuallly policed their brass while UNDER FIRE ! one of them actually lined up his spent cases on the ground behind cover of their cruiser. The other officer was found with empty cases in his pocket.   

I have many video taped gunfights of theses kind of actions under the stress of lethal force encounters. I am a very strong believer in that you will react under stress EXACTLY as you are trained because I have seen it happen so many times. Bad habits developed on the range can get you killed quick.

I bet those officer you spoke of above do those same exact things on their range because that is how they were trained. I bet they have a cold range and are told not to clear the weapon themselves to raise your hand and let the range instructors clear it FOR SAFETY !   I know because my Dept. used to do it. I hope they both have enough sense to get some real training beyond their Dept. as their lives depend upon it.   :-* :'( :-*
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ted murphy

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2005, 12:38:23 PM »


IDPA is great venue for testing yourself and practice, certainly better for serious defense than USPSA type shooting, but I believe even it has a few flaws. 

They both are great practice for marksmanship and gunhandling, plus a few other things.  Some people out there think shooting these games amounts to "training", which I disagree with.  It's like a lot of things, you get out of it what you put in.

These fellows have aspirations of being in SWAT, and are of the opinion that being challenged with different shooting drills and scenario type courses will make them better shooters, which will give them an edge in the qualification test they need to undergo.   I doubt any of them consider it to be much more than that.

Quote
The tactical reload is one I'm not convinced of yet.  Under stress with all the adrenaline I find it difficult to believe that very many people could perform the prescribed tactical reload in a timely and efficient fashion. I've seen it bobbled too many times.  But I'm kind of splittin hairs here.

No I don't think you are splitting hairs, the tactical reload has too much weight applied to it by some people.  I run a lot of matches, including some large major matches.  I never require a tactical reload be done one the clock.  I have mandated them in standards exercises, simply to test the shooter's abilty to do a tactical reload though.  I think people should know how to do them, but I cannot abide having to do one in the middle of a scenario type situation where I know I would not  do it that way on the street.

From a gaming perspective some competitiors have found that a timely tactical reload will give them an edge in the competition, though.  But that is apples and oranges there.

I sometimes do tac loads in matches when I think they are actually appopriate, but that idoesn't happen all that often.

Either way, IDPA can be good fun, but while it can supplement training, it certainly is not the Real Deal.

Ted
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TwoGun

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2005, 10:52:25 PM »

Agreed!

I do think that a serious competitor who shoots several thousand round a year has a definate edge over those who don't spend that kind of range time.  But you certainly have to guard against those bad habits.  Still an individial who can shoot smoothly and accuractly on deamand is a distinct advantage, even if drops a magazine that still has two rounds left in it and leaves in on the ground. 

But they are all games, lots of fun, lots of shooting, and way too many gadgets.  Not to be confused with what happens in a dark alley late at night.
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threegun

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2005, 06:55:32 AM »

Twogun, You are right, IPC and IDPA do help. Don't think so just go get a person who always shoots at the local range punching holes in circle targets. Put them in front of a crowd and force them to engage multiple targets with two shots each, then run and reload, heck that is enough to make that local bullseye shooter miss much less be competitive. I know this because it happened to me and several of my friends. I went from one hole groups at the range to groups that a pie plate couldn't cover in 24 hours time. I have since gotten much better but what a shocker. Now imagine a greenhorn range man going from round targets to a deadly confrontation......holy crap what a shocker.
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Hock

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2005, 08:11:02 AM »

Years ago, and for a few years running, my old department put together some pretty good shooting courses based on IDPA standards. Weird things happened to me. I could shoot down fairly distant, pie plates on a dead run from the hip with one hand, then jump behind a barracade and waste 6 rounds on dropping another one before moving on. Then, the next time around, hit that same pie plate with one shot.

But it depressed me to stand in an abstract window frame and reload. I have seen this window frame section in various IDPA shoots around the country. What a blockhead thing to do! Stand in a window and reload. I wanted to immediately end and correct for all time this stupid practice segment. But, powerless little ol' me just stood there and reloded...

On valuable time...
I was always thinking about better ways to spend the training (and money).Then I always think, why not just get everyone together and in those same hours, maximize everything by shooting at people with gas, sims or airsoft?
See who comes out alive at the end of a session. There's your winner!

Then I have seen trophey winning shooters and police survival gun instructors die like dogs at the hands of inexperienced teens when I switched over to gas guns and airsoft and started emphasizing situational problems.

I have often organized events at gun ranges and the flyer advertising-"do not bring your real gun," just absolutely confuses the hell out of your normal gun guy.  Can I get people together to do? I know from experience, there would be way less competitors because the sims thing is harder, trickier work, and the ugly truth is you so often can do everything "range" right and still die, at the hands of 16 year-old with no range or gun experience. ( and I speak about police shooting instructors shot by clever teens who squiggle and worm their way in and around the stoic two-hand, poster-boy, stances and movements. ) Not only does this happen in sims scenarios, but in real life.

I am not suggesting wargame typical paintball, but more interesting scenarios based on real world situations.

6-hour day.
1-hour everyone gets to shoot their real guns and do that marksmenship thing.
5-hours of sims shooting. Shooting at moving, thinking people shooting back.  This is a real athletic endeavor in chaos, often won by the more clever person. Clever actually becomes the more important, survival trait. Clever means dirt-zero at a range shoot.

It comes down to that training time allotment thing. I have six precious "gun"  hours a month, or 7? How do I spend it for the best benefit? What should get my attention and what should I improve for....plate 7 on segment 2? Or surviving the car jacking sims scenario?

Can I get people together to sims? It gets ugly. They will face a bit of the unknown? It will destroy some of their confidence. But it often changes their lives! Did mine.

Hock


threegun

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2005, 05:58:27 AM »

Hock, At the risk of being called retarded, my friends and I (long ago) used to shoot bb guns at each other. We used to pump our guns only once and set up different scenarios like a police officer looking for a hidden armed suspect and such. I can tell you what I learned from that expierience.  I would consider awareness a major key in winning an armed confrontation. I found that the guy who shot first won most of the time. I also learnd from this that in a defensive shooting (usually responding to a threat) you must be prepared to take hits. You must prepare your mind for the fact that you will probably be hit. Another super important thing I learned was to always put your opponent under fire as it makes them shoot terribly. Is this correct in your expeirience with sims shooting also?

I heard a highway patrolmans shoot out story that agreed with what I learned while young and dumb. He was patting down a suspect and felt what appeared to be a firearm in this guys waist. Just then the man push back off the patrolcar and knocked the officer down. The badguy then calmly pull out the S&W 9mm and pointed it at the officer and tried to fire but the safety was engaged. The officer now in full draw from the ground described the suspect as smiling while pulling the trigger then getting so shook up after the officers gun began rising that he couldn't manipulate the S&W's safety. As he fumbled desperatly trying to disengage the safety the highway patrolman shot him 4 times in the chest and the last round went through his eye instantly ending the threat. The patrolman described how putting the suspect under duress saved his life (that and the gun being on safety). He said that he prepared to be shot and it ticked him off that this scumbag was going to shoot him. He changed the situation from fright to anger and won.

In a gunfight situation my goal is to engage the threat as quickly as possible while moving to cover(retreat while engaging the threat). My mindset understanding that I will probably be shot. If not dead or incapacitated, I hope to turn being shot into the drive needed to stop the attack.

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Hock

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2005, 09:59:20 AM »

Here's my Wal-Mart madness scenario...

You need nine cars, usually that is easily accomplished at a seminar. Three rows of three cars. Two airsoft guns. (they do not hurt cars)

Put one guy at one coner. One guy at another corner and say go! This is a secenario that could happen to anyone, anywhere.

Sometimes it is over in seconds. Sometimes minutes. I will say that often, untrained teenagers shoot the range-shooting experts, because the kids are more fleet of foot and instrinctively turn their body's sideways, forgoing the two-handed grip.

This costs about $75 to do. (the guns and glasses) Compare that to the $100,000 FATS machine. No comparison to the sims experience.

Hey, we'll be doing that in north Dallas, 14, 15 January and ay the Counter-Crimes School in Vegas 19, 20, 21, 22.

I have collected dozens of these real-world scenarios, escpeially real quick, close up gun QDs where there is grappling over gun arms and so forth.

Another super important thing I learned was to always put your opponent under fire as it makes them shoot terribly. Is this correct in your expeirience with sims shooting also?

ABSOLUTELY! And missed rounds can count for a lot! (Suppressive fire)

I believe that you are not learning to gunfight unless someone is shooting back at you. It changes almost everything.

15 minutes on the range for marksmenship
45 minutes in interactive scenarios


Right now the norm ratio is...
A whole lifetme of range training
One Thursday morning doing sims.

Hock

Hock

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Re: Jam!
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2005, 10:16:42 AM »

Just then the man push back off the patrolcar and knocked the officer down. The badguy then calmly pull out the S&W 9mm and pointed it at the officer and tried to fire but the safety was engaged. The officer now in full draw from the ground described the suspect as smiling while pulling the trigger then getting so shook up after ....

That very scenario is in my Gun Level I Stress Quick Draw Module. You are knocked down. The attacker comes after you with a bat, or a knife or pulls a gun. From the ground you draw and shoot him.

It is important that the trainer reacts realistically to the shot.

It is also in level one of my knife course (you pull your knife)
and Level 1 of the stick course (you pull your baton or expandable)

and that's just Level 1...
Hock
 

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