Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Joe Hubbard]

The London’s special firearms unit SO19 (the same unit that Hock And I taught in June) are experiencing an un-official strike where by 123 officers have laid down their arms, so to speak, in protest of two officers being suspended for a supposed illegal shooting where the victim died.  The guy they killed was brandishing a table leg in a threatening manner when police had already received intelligence that this guy was carrying a sawn off shotgun.  Well the officers shot and killed him when they thought he was raising the gun to shoot them.  This case already went to court in 2001 and it was concluded that there wasn’t enough evidence to fry the officers, but now it’s being re-opened and the members of SO19 are furious.  Oddly none of the firearms unit officers are compelled by law to carry weapons (figure that one out), so none of the striking officers face committing an offence by refusing to carry their weapons.  This raises great concern in London where gun crime is increasing everyday.  The SO19 carries out thousands of manoeuvres every year with only resorting to using their firearms within a couple of those events.  It is such a shame that these guys put their lives on the line everyday and get this unfair treatment as a result!

Cheers

Joe

[Planetkillr]

Being that I have been a police officer, in Georgia USA, for about 14 years this does'nt come as much of a surprise. Unfortunate, but expected. Whenever a police officer is accussed or suspected of doing anything, that goes from being rude to committing the most vile of crimes, the officer will be considered guilty until proven guilty. Or as in many cases, guilty after proven innocent. There is'nt enough time (It would take dozens of hours) to discuss all of the situations where similar type incidents have occured just in my area alone...not to mention incidents that have occurred throughout the US and the world.

You may ask, "Then, why do you do it then?"...My answer is simple and complicated all at the same time. My immediate answer is, "We are morons who love smashing our heads against walls.". But, that is'nt the real answer. What I'm about to say next will have many cops rolling their eyes, but deep down in places that they can't go any more...they know I'm right. The real answer is... Cop really wanna help. Why? Because they care. If I had a dollar for everytime I said, "I don't care" in reguards to my job, I'd be typing this from my beachfront home in Hawaii while being served grapes by my servants / bikini models. But, deep down almost all cops wanna help, stop the bad guy, arrest the criminal before he hurts or kills someone. Thats what we all wanna do. But, the job changes us; and changes what we believe can or can't be done with our lives and jobs. Unfortunately for these cops in london are finding out that the world is a cruel and uncaring place. That right and wrong mean nothing to many.

I think my fellow police officers in London are both on the right and wrong path. Which one will be determined later; and for them, unfortunately, not by me. They are attempting to make a change by their refusing to carry their guns. This change will hopefully come quickly and in the form of a new enlightened vision that will cause the justice system tol see the error of their ways and somehow correct their thinking and actions. But, being the guy who usually leads such rebellions...I hope they are'nt expecting much. One thing I've unfortunately had the misery of learning is...Cops are always wrong. Especially cops who have been accused of anything. I expect that very soon (If it has'nt already began) the 123 gun striking officers will be seen as the bad guys again and start taking heat for this action. There will be alot of talk about how they are putting peoples lives at risk by their selfish actions. The behind door talk will be "Can't they just take their screwing with a smile?". The longer it goes on, the more heat they'll receive within the ranks of their own dept..So, whats the answer? The answer is in little steps. That is going to be the best way for these officers to see victory; so to speak. I think they'll see a few concessions from those who are once again attacking them for doing their jobs. But, I hope they are'nt expecting much...and I'm sure many of them are not expecting much. Many of that 123 will find themselves villanized further for this action and some may lose their jobs...not now, but in the future. Police officers are usully not fired for what they are told they being fired for. Usually it is a prior incident that upset the "Powers that be" and they are now firing that officer for a much lesser incident. This is usually done because the incident that really upset the "Powers that be" is'nt a incident that they could fire the officer for in the 1st place. Vengeful are the enemys of the police officer.

In closing, I'll say this. Take care you brave 123. In the coming days I fear you will need it. I hope that your cause will not go un-noticed. You deserve better, but will more than likely be given less. Take care...Bye for now.

[Joe Hubbard]

Well it didn’t take long for the powers to be to pull their finger out and review the suspension order of the two accused officers.  The 123 strikers have taken back their weapons and London has all 400 SO19 officers in tact and ready to go.  Sometimes it pays to stand up for what you think is right.  Well-done boys!

Best

Joe

[Planetkillr]

WOW  That's both Great and surprising news!! Score another one for the good guys!!

[Jim]

Hey Joe, the two officers are still suspended, big surprise, by the "powers that be" who are not required to suspend them anyway. This following the case being sent before the Crown twice and apparently returned with insufficant evidence for a case, this appeal coroners decision means that the misadventure finding is now an illegal killing verdict, and here we go again to the Crown, third time around. The reall losers here, apart from the dead guy, who probabily needed more help from an over working national health system, are the officers involved, this is five years and counting from the incident.
Talk about growing gray hair, count me out thanks very much.

[Joe Hubbard]

Hi Jim

I thought they were reviewing the circumstances and that’s why the striking officers have agreed to carry again.  Not much has been in the news lately.. Would you enlighten?

Ciao

Joe

[Hock]

Hey, this Hock.
I have finally joined my own talk forum!

The question has come in the office wondering if I am certified to teach range shooting or just "Airsoft shooting? The key word is "certified."  What does that mean? By whom?

I have:
...been in and around three gunfights where the suspects were killed....and in and around ohh- about six or seven stretched-out shooting incidents like foot and car chases...we were liberally spraying rounds around back in the 1970s in Texas...
...I have never killed anyone...but I have tried.
...23 years of military and police shooting and street survival schools.
...and then of course-of those 23 years, I have about 16 years as a detective investigating two hundred or so shootings.
 
   Somethings just transcend passing somebody else's so-called "certification course." I wonder who's course I would need to pass to be ..."OK?" and..."certified."
 
After 35 years of shooting, I personally find standing or running around on a range and shooting targets the absolute apitomy of boredom. After all these years, to me it is like going to the dentist. To me, range shooting is just a shell game of changing paper targets.  In fact, I can tear my hair out watching some of the ridiculous range drills people create. This is why I usually farm out range shooting to other guys at our big combat camps. I am utterly bored with the process.

I Know! I know... people love to do it. I Know! I am happy for them. I have just hit my own tolerance limit. It is a chore to me.
 
As George Patton said,
"It takes a certain mindset and ability to gun fight. Training this mental edge is severely lacking at the time and expense of standing around a public range and wasting time and ammunition in the name of shooting courses."
 
Bond with your gun on the range...then lets get busy shooting people! I am instead obsessed with "shooting moving and thinking people" who are shooting back, with simulated ammo, (airsoft, sims, paintball or otherwise) in realistic situations.
 
When you are shot at, it destroys so much of the range structure and protocal you are brainwashed with. So, my gun training motto? "For every 15 minutes on the range, you should spend 45 minutes shooting people in scenarios with sims. If you are just shooting? Without someone shooting back at you? You are just not learning to gunfight."
 
So much so...that I start the course with drawing the weapon under the stress of being shot at. I want people from Day-One to see this reality. Experiencing this creates a base line of reality and will effect their training for the rest of their lives. We  (me and Steve Krystek) have developed a series of simulated combat scenarios that cover many topics. They are listed on:
http://www.hockscqc.com/gun/index.htm
 
   Police and citizens around the world IMMEDIATELY start teaching the simulated shooting drills I teach them-right after they see them. My entire 10 Level approach is "out-of-the box" and radical. I believe, (and have for about 5 years now) that simulated ammo will absolutely revolutionize shooting training.

   I expect resistance and even ridicule because this better, faster, smarter version of training does not rely on the shooting range industry as it currently exists today. This is scary to them because we only need them, well...about one-forth of the time!
 
The truth is in the return fire. Will it kill you?

Hock

[Planetkillr]

This is to you Hock Hochheim...

You bring up a problem that exists almost everywhere; especially among the Law Enforcement set. You are correst about your shooting drills. The few I've been exposed to, I adopted in our teaching. We do not specialize in this type training but I think it helps citizens as well as officers to do something besides shoot at a stationary (Motionless) target and fire two rounds in the left target and two rounds into the right target when the whistle sounds 

As far as "Certification" goes...I can certify you in the art of "Hoo-flung-Dung" !! All you have to do is attend many of the ZOOs around the world; especially the monkey cages. Then, practice your "Dung" throwing on your own time. I'll have you a master of "Hoo-Flung-Dung" in no time!!! And with that "Cerification" you can....Ummmmmm  Well.....You could.......ahhhhhhhhhhh. Well I'm sure it would be good to have my "Certification" because then you would be undefeatable and all knowing; with the help of your certification.

As far as the question "Will the return fire kill you" goes. I have trouble in answering that. When you are being shot at. Are you "Certified" in "Hoo-Flung-Dung"? Ok....I'm finally finished with being silly  I think. You do bring up many vital points to training. I actually do better in shoting drills where I'm moving & shooting than I do when I'm just standing there shooting at a stationary target. I'm not sure if boredom overtakes me or what. Plus, I've found that alot of officers freeze up when they have to think, move & shoot. Its doing 3 things at one time and many have problems with that. Heck, I have problems with that;  I've so much to still learn. But, I do see that most officers begin to do dramaticlly better after giving your drills a go a time or two. I know you have many retractors. But, there are still many who are thankful for the time & effort you have put into your program.


                                                                  Tim Platt
                                                                  Metter Police Dept
                                                                  Metter, Ga. 30439