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Author Topic: One Shot Stop?  (Read 7269 times)

TwoGun

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One Shot Stop?
« on: December 23, 2005, 12:40:01 PM »

Okay I know it's the holidays and so the forums are kind of slow.  But I'm an instagator sometimes.  A good friend of mine and I have an ongoing debate about concept of the one shot stop.  There have been reams of paper written about caliber/bullet combination gives the most one shot stops and a significant amount of statistical data gathered on the subject.

My friend says "so what?  If you have to shoot someone, you just keep shooting until they stop doing what ever it was that made  you start shooting in the first place".

On the surface this makes a certain amout of sense, but I believe it goes a lot deeper than that.  While nothing, and I mean nothing replaces shot placement, there is an advantage to using premium ammo.  I won't go into my thoughts on this for a bit but would like to hear from others out there.  What do you think, is utilizing the info for one shot stops worth wild when choosing a caliber/ammo combination?  If you are in or have been in law enforcement, would you want to have insight as to what combinatins are statictically the best stoppers?
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2005, 08:08:01 PM »

Finding ammo that is maximumally effective is a worthy goal. The problem is getting solid data.

A couple of popular books and videos on "one shot stops" have reputedly relied on very shaky methodology to reach their conclusions.

Are hollowpoints or expanding rounds more effective? Probably, if they expand and you don't have to shoot through anything, e.g. windshield, doorframe, forearm...

Downside to hollowpoints? Unless they're really light bullets, probably not many.

Short of a brain or upper spinal column hit, the occurrence of a "one shot stop" involve so many variables that it is difficult to isolate one element like bullet X vs. bullet Y.

What exactly did the round tear up.
Was the subject intoxicated or an Emotionally Disturbed Person?
Has the subject ever been shot or seriously hurt in a fight.
Did the subject lose consciousness?
Did the subject ever visualized getting shot but fighting on?
Was he physically unable to continue the fight or did he just give in to fear and pain?

Here are some references I have found useful:
http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

Effective shot placement and gun/ammo reliability are essential, then:

Relevant factors to be balanced in handgun ammo:

Deep penetration (Get into the good stuff)
Big holes (More leakage)
Controllability for follow-up shots (One will probably not be enough)
Concealability of gun
Can I shoot it well

I'm comfy with my G22 in .40 with 180gr. hollowpoints from any major ammo manufacturer.
I don't feel underarmed if I've loaded JFP practice ammo.

I'm not expecting an instant stop unless I pound one straight into the bridge of the nose. (I train to recover the sights on target in case that doesn't work, too. Cyborgs and whatnot. ;D)

YMMV, of course.

Chuck
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spanky

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2005, 08:10:31 PM »

I always use premium ammo in my carry guns and I have had some of my best training at John Farman's DTI and I agree with his stragtegy. He  teaches too stitch them from crotch to eyeball (maximum damage) because there is no such thing as a one shot stop (especially a handgun) except for maybe the .50 cal from Ma Deuce (M2).
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Hock

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2005, 10:36:10 PM »

He  teaches too stitch them from crotch to eyeball (maximum damage)

He Does!?!

I did not know that. That is very, VERY old school. I was taught by a couple of retired FBI agents back in the 70s to do that. We would walk to and fro a mirror dry-firing our revolvers up and down the reflected image of ourselves.


Hock


threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2005, 06:02:12 AM »

Since hits to a moving and possibly shooting back target are extremely difficult to achieve, the effectivness of each hit increases dramatically. If you preceive a confrontation here in Florida, prudence dictates that you chose a lighter projectile with a higher velocity as these tend to offer the best OSS in your chosen caliber. If you happen to be up north in colder climates, your confrontation (as twogun indicated in another post) would most likely come from someone with heavy clothing, making the choice of heavy projectile prefferable.

As for zippering, I don't agree with this. My training involves the conscience act of locating the front sight and placing it on the largest vital area of the target (center mass or chest). If you can locate the front sight and place it on the target, then get a good trigger pull, you will achieve consistent hits without the excess time it takes to allign the front sight with the rear. Provided the firearm fits your hand and points well and the distance is not abnormally long for a defensive shooting. Then just shoot until the threat is ended.

I have trained in double taps, two to the chest one to the head, ect. The bottom line is without using that front sight hitting ain't as reliable.
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2005, 08:32:43 AM »

Stay on task gentlemem.  It is worth the time and effort to choose a caliber/load combination based on statistical data of one shot stops?  Explain why you think so.
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spanky

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2005, 01:29:28 PM »

Stay on task gentlemem.  It is worth the time and effort to choose a caliber/load combination based on statistical data of one shot stops?  Explain why you think so.

TWOGUN

I say NO and this is why, say the latest magic bullet of the week is a .50 300 gr jhp that delivers 99.9% one shot stops or whatever. Not everyone is going to be able to accurately shoot such a cartridge/gun combo. You need to have a weapon that can easily be controlled with one hand for repeated shots on target fastest and most accurate. This is demonstrated and proven by Hock's FOF scenarios with the soft air guns.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2005, 03:08:55 PM »

The whole one-shot stop statistic is nonsensical and a scam of the worst order.

The people who created that do not count instances where one shot is fired and it fails to stop so another shot is fired. According to them that is a multishot shooting.

But what do people do when they fire one shot and it fails to stop? They fire another shot of course.

So Marshal and Sanow--the two gun writers who came up with the one shot stop numbers have created a system that fails to account for any situations where one shot is fired and it does not stop someone and requires additional shots be fired.
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #8 on: December 26, 2005, 03:25:56 PM »

Quote
The people who created that do not count instances where one shot is fired and it fails to stop so another shot is fired. According to them that is a multishot shooting.

And that is not a multi shot shooting?  More than one shot was fired.  I'm afraid that you have got me confused with this one.
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spanky

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #9 on: December 26, 2005, 07:33:58 PM »

http://theboxotruth.com/docs/bot10.htm

check out the performance of modern JHP ammo
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2005, 08:33:53 PM »

I had hoped to generate a bit more discussion with this one.  I have strong feelings about this particular subject for a couple of reasons and in truth I omitted a factor that I feel is extremely important.

One person so far has taken Evan and Sanov to task about their methodology.  I have read it a time or two and it goes something like this.  They define a "STOP" as the person that was shot stopped doing what ever it was that made you shoot him in the first place and the perp doesn't go more than ten feet.

Next they did not count head shots or peripheral shots, only center mass hits.  All shootings are documented police shootings. 

It may not be perfect, I'm sure you can find something wrong, but I think it is the best available data we currently have.  How on earth are you going to get better info than real life shootings that have police department investigations with the officer involved?

Next I factor in the Strousberg test.  If you are not familiar with them, they took a bunch of Alpine goats that average about 150 pounds in weight.  Their chest cavity is roughly similar to a human's.  They then brought the goats in one at a time to a stall and the goats were calmly eating when shot.  The started out with a .22 and went up from there.  The purpose was to document the incapacitation time.  For the moment I will discount the frangible ammo they used.  To make a long story short the best conventional hollow point ammo took over 8 seconds to take a goat down.  That was the Federal Hydra-Shok in .45ACP.  There were others that were close.  Some 9MM took well over 15 seconds. 

Now remember this is with the goats calmly eating, there was no adrenaline dump occurring at all when they were killed. (I understand that they had one heck of a BBQ when they were done!)

In one instance the goat simply paused and then continued eating.  If memory serves me correctly the round was a .32 APC.

Now let's apply a little common sense.  Once you get past the 90% mark of one stop shots, your choices between them are pretty inconsequential.  But for instance the 158 grain FBI load in .38 special that was around for a very long time has only a 58% one shot stop record.  If you use a revolver for self defense, would you choose that round or the 125 grain .357 that is a 96% one shot stopper?

There are no hard and fast rules, but it simply makes sense to use a round that is statistically a better stopper.  As I said in the beginning, NOTHING replaces shot placement.  And yes, if you ever have to shoot someone, you keep shooting them until they stop what ever made you shoot them in the first place.  But imagine a situation where you have to try to double tap a moving target and only one round finds its mark and the prep is now behind cover and shooting back.  Or you that snapped of a single shot before you were forced to find cover from a position where you couldn't shoot again without exposing yourself to fire.

There are lots of possible situations that could find yourself in where the stopping power of single shot could become very important to you.  I would also say that if it takes 8 seconds for the bad guy to go down, he can easily return fire, several times before going down.  Would you like to give him just 8 seconds or 15?  He may go a lot longer if he is on drugs our just a tough SOB with an adrenaline rush.  Why not stack the deck in your favor?

If you look at Evan's work you'll notice that the mighty .44 Mag is not that great a stopper when compared to several other rounds.  The reason is twofold.  First as has been pointed out, many folks simply cannot shoot a big handgun well so shot placement suffers.  Second, most of the .44 Mag ammo is hunting ammo.  It is designed to penetrate deeply at longer distances and the bullets must hold together and break heavy bone.  The .44 Mag is not a great choice.  There is some defensive ammo available for it but not much.

The ammo that dropped the goats fastest was the pre fragmented ammo.  This stuff dropped the goats in HALF the time of any other ammo.  I'm not a great believe in it, especially for law enforcement but it certainly does bear looking into.

My bottom line is this:

((Shoot the largest caliber you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately and quickly.
((Ammo should function flawlessly in your firearm.  No matter how good a stopper it is, if it fails to
   function when you need it, it is worthless.
((Use premium ammo.  If your life depends on it, what are a few bucks?  Why not use something that falls
   to the top of the performance charts, even if you don't have a lot of faith in the stats?
((Practice, practice, and then practice some more.
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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2005, 09:26:32 PM »

Twogun,
Quote
Stay on task gentlemem.  It is worth the time and effort to choose a caliber/load combination based on statistical data of one shot stops?  Explain why you think so.

No! The badguy shouldn't be given the round most capable of incapacitating him or her the fastest. You should choose the round that took the longest to incapacitate the goats..........come on dude..........Of course it is.

BTW I did say why I feel that OSS are important. Hits are hard to achieve in an armed confrontation so if each hit is the best possible you stand the best chance of winning.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #12 on: December 26, 2005, 10:11:40 PM »

One person so far has taken Evan and Sanov to task about their methodology.  I have read it a time or two and it goes something like this.  They define a "STOP" as the person that was shot stopped doing what ever it was that made you shoot him in the first place and the perp doesn't go more than ten feet.

Except if they do not stop after being hit with one stop and more shots need to be fired the shooting is NOT counted as a failure of one-shot to stop.  So they have statistics with absurdly inflated numbers.

How come if someone runs away after being shot once it counts as a one shot failure but if someone needs to be shot again it isn't?

If we translated this into unarmed combat we would be counting the times a single blow knocked someone out without factoring in the times where one strike was not enough to knock someone out and additional strikes had to be thrown.

Quote
It may not be perfect, I'm sure you can find something wrong, but I think it is the best available data we currently have.

Its far from perfect. Its useless.  Its the refuge of gunstore commandos and has been debunked by professionals in the police and wound ballistics field:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs24.htm#Too%20Good%20To%20Be%20True

http://www.firearmstactical.com/streetstoppers.htm

http://firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm

http://firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/undeniable-evidence.htm

http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-statistical-analysis.htm

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000031#000023

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=000435#000000

Quote
Next they did not count head shots or peripheral shots, only center mass hits.  All shootings are documented police shootings.

They claim that they are documented police shootings. In reality they are not documented and most likely made up.

Quote
Next I factor in the Strousberg test.  If you are not familiar with them, they took a bunch of Alpine goats that average about 150 pounds in weight.

The Strasbourg tests were debunked a long time ago--
http://www.thegunzone.com/goats/mlf.html

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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #13 on: December 26, 2005, 10:29:22 PM »

Guess again:
Quote
Its far from perfect. Its useless.  Its the refuge of gunstore commandos and has been debunked by professionals in the police and wound ballistics field:

Most people who have attempted to debunk the study have done so because thier pet load didn't do as well as they thought is should.  The same goes for the Strousberg test.

Look, there IS NO bullet proof data, (pardon the pun) but shootings in Evan's book is documented from various law enforcement agencies around the counrty.  He sites sources for just about every shooting.  Call him a liar if you like but I won't.

Whats more when tested in ballistic gelitan, high perfromance bullets tend to generate similar results in terms of penetration, wound channel, and tempory stretch cavity.

But all that aside, what do you suggest we all shoot and what do you base your opinion on?  What contention do you have with my statted bottom line?

((Shoot the largest caliber you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately and quickly.
((Ammo should function flawlessly in your firearm.  No matter how good a stopper it is, if it fails to
   function when you need it, it is worthless.
((Use premium ammo.  If your life depends on it, what are a few bucks?  Why not use something that
  falls into the top of the performance charts, even if you don't have a lot of faith in the stats?
((Practice, practice, and then practice some more.

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lakerssportsfan

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2005, 11:59:16 PM »

Look, there IS NO bullet proof data, (pardon the pun) but shootings in Evan's book is documented from various law enforcement agencies around the counrty.

They are not documented.

He claimed that they came from different police departments and when people inquired those departments had no shootings that matched his description.

As for documentation-he refuses to let anyone view his actual data and files that his books and articles are based on. This is unheard of in scientific studies.

Quote
But all that aside, what do you suggest we all shoot and what do you base your opinion on?  What contention do you have with my statted bottom line?

I already cited my contention and produced a load of links that support it.

How can you possibly claim that a round has a 97% chance of producing a one shot stop when you dont count all of the times where one shot was not enough to stop someone and more rounds had to be fired?

It seems to me that you believe his nonsense because you want to believe it. Because it sounds cool and neat.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 12:32:19 AM by lakerssportsfan »
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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2005, 05:51:23 AM »

How can you compare a torso hit low and to the right, with a torso hit center mass? That is not so fair however in this type of statistical gathering(where people die) you must take what is availible and have equal guidlines or rules as you can't go around shooting people for a OSS study.. The fact remains that judging all shootings under the same criteria, produces as close to a fair result as possible. If all one shot and run failiers are not counted then it is statistically equal as every caliber and load is given the same luxury. Their are so many factors that could skew the figures of a particular round however over the long haul one could form statistical opinions based on the over all performance of say slow moving heavy bullets compared to high velocity light weight ones. Then you could check the ballistic geletan performance of your chosen round as provided by the gun magazines to see what is best for creating the worst conditions for the human body.

I believe that even though the OSS's figures have many problems, you could salvage enough usable information to conclude that higher velocity equals better stopping power in every caliber. My next sentence should end this debate. NO SINGLE ROUND ACHIEVED 100 PERCENT OSS SO TWO SHOTS ARE NECESSARY FOR EVERY CARTRIDGE END OF STORY. So if you are the fat, heavy, and slow crowd in the lowest OSS's realm it will take at least two. If you are in the slim, light, and super fast crowd (like me) it will still take at least  two to guarentee a OSS.

I will say this, light and fast has worked better for me in the hunting field as well. The cci stinger outperforms every other hollowpoint 22lr I have ever tried, hands down. Higher velocity does equal faster incapacitation, this cannot be argued.
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2005, 09:22:16 AM »

I didn't start this thread to argue over the validity of a paticular study.  If you don't the the study, fine.  I didn't bring it up.  Pick one you do like.  If someone has a study of terminal bullet performance that can withstand any scrutiny, I've not heard or seen it.  But take what ever study you like, or any use any rational for bullet performance.

My point is, some bullets, some caliber/load combinations ARE better than others at stopping bad guys.  My question was simply to find out if you factor that in when choosing a caliber/load combination.  If you happen to be in law enforcement and have influence on such choices, do you ignore what info is out there or do you use it, flawed as it may be, to make the choice?

If you attempt to find what you consider the best caliber/load combination for its intended role, what factors influence your choice. 

I think law enforcement has a different criteria than civilians do.  As a civilian we can and should cut of the engagement and flee if we are given the chance to do so.  Law enforcement doens't have that option as they are duty bound to engage the bad guys.  They may have to shoot through barracides or car doors or windshields while few enough civilian shootings ever have this consideration.  It is well documented that most civilian shootings occur within 21 feet, in low light conditions with straight on frontal shots.  This is not the case with law enforcement so it would seem that they would require different performance from thier ammo.

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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2005, 12:25:39 PM »

For OSS on human targets everything I have ever seen seems to indicate that light and fast beats heavy and slow. Just as it is known that hollowpoints are better than fmj's.

TwoGun, Civilians need to do the same chosing when living in different climates and such.

Great post, You sound very logical.
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2005, 01:01:40 PM »

Bullet design has improved much over the last ten to twelve years.  In the early days of the hollowpoint, a lot of velocity was required to get expansion.  But newer materials, designs and manufacturing processes have changed that.  Most premium bullets will expand reliably under a varity of velocities (distanceses).  This has been a great boon to the heavy slow crowd in terms of terminal perfromance.  But the same technologies have been applied to lighter, faster bullets.  In autoloaders, there are three dominate cartridges, the 9MM, the .40S&W, and the .45ACP.  Certainly there are other good cartidges out there and some of them are in use by law enforcement but they do not have nearly the presence of the three I mentioned. 

The 10MM and the .357 SIG are both good rounds but not seeing a great deal of popularity for a number of reasons.  The .400 Cor-Bon is a very interesting cartridge but what you can in velocity over the .10MM or the .40S&W you lose in magazine capacity.  Most things tend to be trade off.  Sitll the main three rounds I mentioned all have premium bullets designed for them and they work as well as handgun power levels can do.  The issue of expansion combined with adaquate penetration to cause significant hydrolic failure is what it boils down to but only if you discount taking out the nervous system.

I think that both the fast, light round and the heavier slow round will work equally well given reasonable conditions.  The advantage of the faster round is more reliable expansion, (even with modern bullets, they are not perfect) and the tempory stretch cavity is substantial.  Larger calibers with heavier bullets have larger frontal areas to start with and normally retain enough momentum due to mass in order to penetrate deep.  The wound cavity tends to be larger than with the lighter bullets but not as much tempory stretch cavity.  Take your choice
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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2005, 02:28:37 PM »

TwoGun, I used to carry the Glock model 20 for years. Then corbon came out with the 165 grain JHP .45acp load @1250fps and I switched. I also carry the 40s&w model 23 with 135grain JHP @ 1400fps. Both loads are excellent stoppers.
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2005, 02:54:38 PM »

Yes they should be.  Cor-Bon loads the Serria bullet for all hollowpoints.  They recently acquired Glaser and now they do the fragmented bullet thing as well.  They have a new bullet that has a "V" shaped hollowpoint but there is a nylon ball that sits in it and is basically glued in place.  The ball forms the tip of the bullet and the profile is very much like, well, ball ammunition.  It is a good choice for reliabailyt in many guns.  The nylon ball is driven back into the cavity on impact and helps to facilitate expansion.

Cor-Bon's factory is only about 150 miles from where I live yet I see very little of thier ammo on the shelves locally.  They have historically targeted law enforcement and the self defense market and while that appears to be thier main thrust, they have a number of handgun and rifle rounds touted as hunting rounds.

They do a good job of getting high velocity without surpassing pressure limits by holding peak pressure a bit longer than other rounds tend to do.  I'm not chemist enough to understand exactly how they do it, but they normally have a velocity edge on just about any ammo they produce.
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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2005, 03:13:24 PM »

Corbon always seems to have a projectile slightly lighter than any of the competition. I believe that this combined with close to maximum pressure are responsible for the higher velocity. In the 40sw they offer the 135 grainer. In 45acp the 165 grainer both rare with other manufactures. You are dead on ,very few retailers offer it. We sell the snot out of it here.
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2005, 03:34:57 PM »

There is a very cogent discussion of "Handgun Wounding Factors" at  http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf.

IMHO, whether you adopt this view or not, this report is a "must read" for the sake of firearms literacy.

Chuck
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2005, 05:10:09 PM »

The fact remains that judging all shootings under the same criteria, produces as close to a fair result as possible. If all one shot and run failiers are not counted then it is statistically equal as every caliber and load is given the same luxury.

No its not. You can judge all shootings under the same criteria and have nothing useful because the criteria is nonsense.

What is the value of saying a round has a 95% one shot stop rate when you exclude all of the times that one shot was not enough to stop someone and they had to be shot again?

What is the value of shooting reports that make up the percentages when the people who calculate the number will not allow anyone access to their raw data and individual files that make up the study?

Quote
My next sentence should end this debate. NO SINGLE ROUND ACHIEVED 100 PERCENT OSS SO TWO SHOTS ARE NECESSARY FOR EVERY CARTRIDGE END OF STORY.

No its not the end of the story. They are claiming that certain rounds produce 96% one shot stops when they dont produce close to that many EVEN BY THEIR OWN FIGURES.

I will prove it with Marshal and Sanows own numbers from street stoppers.

The one shot stop statistics for the .357 Magnum Federal 125 grain JHP:

1-Shot stops:---------Shootings----Stops--------Percentage
Fed 125-gr JHP---------523----------501----------96% (1-hit)

2-shot stops:---------Shootings----Stops--------Percentage 
Fed 125-gr JHP----------829----------804----------97 (2-hits

Total shootings:------------------------------------------------------1352

shootings ended with one shot that did not require 2 shots-------501

Percentage of total shootings that ended with one shot-----------37%

If you add all of the shootings with that round together you get a total of 1352 shootings--523+829=1352.   Of those shootings they claim that 501 were one-shot stops.  But if you include all of the one-hit and two-hit shootings together and divide the 501 one shot stops by the 1352 shootings, the percentage that work out to be one shot stops is 37%--
not the 96% that they claim!

The real one shot stop percentage is lower because who knows how many shootigns with more than two shots they did not include.

You cannot just do a study and include the numbers that you want to include.  But thats what they did.

Quote
Higher velocity does equal faster incapacitation, this cannot be argued.

It can be argued because some of the figures that Marshal and sanow used do not match the numbers that the agencies have.  If light and fast was so good how come the Illinois State Police replaced their 115 grain +P+, the round that ranked highest in M&S's study, with a 127 grain +P+?

Here is another question for you--how come the gun magazines no longer carry articles with one shot stop info?  The answer is because it got discredited on many fronts.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2005, 05:17:17 PM by lakerssportsfan »
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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2005, 05:50:14 PM »

Laker,
Quote
It can be argued because some of the figures that Marshal and sanow used do not match the numbers that the agencies have.  If light and fast was so good how come the Illinois State Police replaced their 115 grain +P+, the round that ranked highest in M&S's study, with a 127 grain +P+?

Easy, the Illinois State Police had problems with penetration during the winter months and the thick clothing. They wanted to get a bit more weight while maintaining the higher velocity. This is why they didn't opt for the 147grain 9mm. If your theory is correct then they would have jumped to the heaviest availible round and not a projectile only 12 grains heavier.

Let me ask you, have you ever hunted with a 22lr? I have hunted rabbit and squirrel alot. The day I switched to super high velocity stinger cartridges, I could pysically see the difference.  The reason a push was made from the .45acp fmj to the 357magnum was that the 357magnum ended fights faster. This indicated that velocity played a major role in stopping power as my hunting expeirience proved to me.


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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2005, 07:28:31 PM »

Please.  If you want to get into a debate on what studies are legit and valid, start another thread.  Let's keep with the original question.

I read the documentment linked to by Chuck.  I have read it before but long ago.  The document was dated July of 89' so I'd consider it outdate in some ways.  However in other areas it has been validated many times over.

The conclusion is most interesting however.  It basically states that to have any chance at effectiveness, a bullet must penetrate deeply and must have enough frontal diameter to do enough damage to cause hydrolic failure. 

While speed can add to penetration, if the bullet weight is too light, when the bullet expands, it may not have enough mass to retain the necessary momentum for penetration.  On the other hand, heavier bullets have the mass but are difficult to get the higher velocities.  It can be done, but in a handgun you tend to end up with a monsterous round and its usually designed for hunting.

Controlled expansion is a tricky thing.  But a larger frontal area is better for tissue damage.  Trying to get the larger bullet to penetrate requires more weight and/or more velocity.  There appears to be no free ride, but again, some bullets/loads do this better than others.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2005, 08:37:51 PM »

Please.  If you want to get into a debate on what studies are legit and valid, start another thread.  Let's keep with the original question.

Thats not how messageboards work. You posted something in this thread that I take issue with.

You even said in your first post:

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Okay I know it's the holidays and so the forums are kind of slow.  But I'm an instagator sometimes.

You cant instigate and then call it off.

I just want to know how anyone can believe in a study that considers a round that supposedly produced one shot stops in in 501 out of 1352 shootings to have a one shot stop rate of 96%. 

501 out of 1352 shootings is 37% not 96%. And thats not counting other shootings they decided not to include in their study. 

I dont have a problem with light and fast bullets.

I dont have a problem with hearing from different departments that some rounds did better than others.

I have a huge problem when you turn it into nonsensical statistics that inflate the effectiveness of certain rounds by several hundred percent.

I have a huge problem with figures that claim to count the one shot stop rate of a round without counting the times when one shot failed to stop and other shots had to be fired.
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Professor

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2005, 11:49:27 PM »

Look, there IS NO bullet proof data, (pardon the pun) but shootings in Evan's book is documented from various law enforcement agencies around the counrty.

They are not documented.

He claimed that they came from different police departments and when people inquired those departments had no shootings that matched his description.

As for documentation-he refuses to let anyone view his actual data and files that his books and articles are based on. This is unheard of in scientific studies.

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But all that aside, what do you suggest we all shoot and what do you base your opinion on?  What contention do you have with my statted bottom line?

I already cited my contention and produced a load of links that support it.

How can you possibly claim that a round has a 97% chance of producing a one shot stop when you dont count all of the times where one shot was not enough to stop someone and more rounds had to be fired?

It seems to me that you believe his nonsense because you want to believe it. Because it sounds cool and neat.



Gun arguments...caliber, etc. get out of hand fast.


It's an equation:

x1 + x2  + x3 +  + error = the perfect bullet.


caliber + environment + hand strength + skill + pistol + barrel length + distance of fight + clothing + brass balls + error = perfect bullet caliber



Just another way of looking at it....


Fight on....popcorn and cold drink back in hand.....

Prof

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threegun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2005, 06:14:58 AM »

lakerssportsfan, The reason I feel the conclusion reached by Marshall's OSS is on target is because it mimmics the same thing that happened to me in the field. I switched to a lighter much faster cartridge and death of the bunnies went from quick to right now. The devastation on the animal differed dramatically. Something does happen or can be said for the temporary stretch cavity caused by the higher velocity. I saw that the heavy slower rounds wound punch a hole on both sides usually bigger on the backside. The stinger however would remove intestine, cause a spray of blood and such in front of the game as well as behind, and just look wickedly effective.

Is there a weight cutoff before light and fast loose their advantage? I think so. Is it the 9mm 115grain JHP? I don't think so. I will say that if given only one round to stop the badguy before he uses his knife on you I would choose the 165grain corbon 45acp. The best of both worlds.
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TwoGun

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Re: One Shot Stop?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2005, 11:21:28 PM »

I've been out of pocket for a while and it's late and I have to get up early.

But:
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They are not documented.

He claimed that they came from different police departments and when people inquired those departments had no shootings that matched his description

Who the heck are the "PEOPLE" and why should I give them validation?

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As for documentation-he refuses to let anyone view his actual data and files that his books and articles are based on. This is unheard of in scientific studies.

Ever hear of the AMA?  The refuse to let people see their data all the time.  And there is a reason.

If you have heartache with the methodology, fine, I don't care.  I don't really care what data you choose to use to come to a conclusion.  You have yet to state your own conclusions on the matter but merely posted links to other peoples.  And most of the ones I looked at were intent only on trying debunk and critize other peoples work.

Strousberg was bunk?  Says who and on what grounds?  They claim that they really didn't shoot the goats, (or was the BBQ?)  Maybe the figured they lied about the times.  There would be great incentive to do that.  The test never were meant to show what incapcitation time to a human would be, only to compare one bullet's performace to another under as controlled circumstances as possible.

The I never claimed that any study was valid or invalid.  The only study I mentioned by name first was the Strousberg test.  Someone else brought up the Evan and Marshal study.  The only things I mentioned were observations of others studies and the following:

((Shoot the largest caliber you are comfortable with and can shoot accurately and quickly.
((Ammo should function flawlessly in your firearm.  No matter how good a stopper it is, if it fails to
   function when you need it, it is worthless.
((Use premium ammo.  If your life depends on it, what are a few bucks?  Why not use something that falls
   to the top of the performance charts, even if you don't have a lot of faith in the stats?
((Practice, practice, and then practice some more.

If you have issiue with something there, then by all means bring it up.

« Last Edit: December 28, 2005, 11:28:40 PM by TwoGun »
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