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  • May 21, 2012, 08:26:54 PM
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Author Topic: Deadliness of striking the throat?  (Read 839 times)

TAC

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Deadliness of striking the throat?
« on: January 01, 2006, 02:58:49 PM »

I've heard a lot about how striking to the throat/neck should be reserved only for life/death situations due to its deadliness. But how would somebody die from one?. (I'm talking front of the neck here by the way, this doesn't include striking the base of the skull etc)

I certainly know they are effective. A few nights ago I had to restrain somebody. I happened to be behind them and I didn't think there was cause for a head/hair pull to the ground or a rear choke so I just wanted to loop one arm around the neck and walk them back.

I was too hard.

There was no looping... it came out more like a strike. As my arm came round, the inside of my forearm whacked into his throat and he dropped like a sack of bad stuff. He was choking all over the place and had some kind of panic attack. I have to say, I think most of the damage was psychological (surprise of strike/ the fact that he was already exited which contributed to his dramatic "Oh God i'm choking!!" response)
And so, is it really DEADLY? Or does it just really suck to recieve such a strike?

Oh... and another time I got clocked by a heavy rubber training knife on the left/front side of my neck about where the carotted is and it almost dropped me. My entire left side went limp and vision in my left eye went blury. I'm guessing this is due to the sensitive nerves in the throat and their closeness to the brain.

Anybody who can share experiences? I'm just researching because I'd like to know how much I should be training throat-aimed strikes. Don't wanna be training my way to a long jail sentance coz I was too hard.

Sharif













 
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Bri Thai

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2006, 03:57:48 PM »

There are too many variables in my view.  There is no "just right."  Even if you could accurately guage the amount of force you produce (made even more difficult on a moving target), different amounts of force will produce different responses in different people.

It sounds to me like you got the gag reflex in the guy you struck.  Someone else may have brushed it off, but another could have dropped down dead.

Don't strike the throat unless you feel the necessity to risk his life.
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JimH

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2006, 06:08:11 PM »

There are too many variables to say what may or may not cause Death or serious injury.

How strong is the opponents neck and throat?
(if they have some weakness a touch may be all it takes to kill them)

Do they have a condition which may be aggravated and cause a more difficult problem when attacked?

How hard is the strike?

Is the strike straight across the front or angular and hitting the muscles of the side?

Does the strike crush the trachea?

Does the strike go upward and stretch/tear the trachea?

Does the person feel like they cannot swalow and begin to choke?

Does the strike cause the throat to spasm and close?

There are no straight answers,anytime we attack the throat or neck we take a chance that the person may die.
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Adventure

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2006, 07:38:02 PM »

But how would somebody die from one?. (I'm talking front of the neck here by the way, this doesn't include striking the base of the skull etc)

You can crush the trachea, which can block the airway & even cuase bleeding into the lungs if the cartilage splinters and lacerates some blood vessels. Or if you don't hit it that hard to crush it you can cause the muscles to spasm, which will also close off the airway. Or edema can form around the airway closing it off by the swelling to the area.

just some things from medic school.

Joe Hubbard

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2006, 05:29:32 AM »

Really anything you use could potentially be "lethal".  One recent case in the UK where a drunk guy is trying to gain entry into his old house; the new owner (a former boxer) thinks he is a burglar and punches him once, knocking the guy to the ground which ended up killing him. 


Ciao

Joe
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Bri Thai

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2006, 06:34:15 AM »

Yes Joe, but there is a little more to it than that.

Millions of people survive a hard punch in the jaw though, of course, some do die (usually by hitting their head on a hard surface when they fall).  But how many people would survive a similarly powerful blow to the throat?
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Irishtacticts

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2006, 11:10:26 AM »

such a good Post Jim H.

The fact is if it come s to restraining him a hand to the throat is always good. but if you want a ok shock to his brain hit him closer to the hing point of the jaw. but then again there could be consequences to that to.

over all ide perfer a shot to the stomac. Solar Plexus.
its an easy target because it is big and hard to move in a split second and it hurts like no other as well as nock the wind out of him.
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JimH

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2006, 07:45:42 PM »

If we look at the first post and we see that the strike was meant to be a hold or choke we then see the problems with the attack,two moving objects of individual intent,we see there were options,less likely to be lethal.

If we come from behind or from an angle form the side,rear,we have advantage of surprise,so if we intend to remove someone,we Can make a similar move as to the choke  but slide up to push the jaw back and up,(using the palm) and holding the rear of the head,to make sure we do not force the head back to hard and tear the trachea,(as long as we control the head)
or
we can push up from under the nose while controlling the rear of the head,
or
we could go into the eyes(with light contact at first) and control the head,we also have the Hair,once we get the head pointing up or the eyes covered or occupied then we have time to get control or ground the person,depending on the persons aggression level and our needs.

Again just an option,as the situation and the training of the person, and the opponents actions,determines the techniques ,moves and force used.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2006, 08:10:05 PM by JimH »
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TAC

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2006, 03:41:11 AM »

Really anything you use could potentially be "lethal".  One recent case in the UK where a drunk guy is trying to gain entry into his old house; the new owner (a former boxer) thinks he is a burglar and punches him once, knocking the guy to the ground which ended up killing him. 


Ciao

Joe

Hi Joe.

It's true I guess that you take a risk every time you hit somebody with anything. Even if your impact isn't fatal, the head-to-concrete thing after they fall might do the damage.

I remember you once mentioned on this message board about web-hand striking a bad guy when he was about give you the bad news with a wine bottle. If you don't mind me asking, what made you choose the web-hand to the throat? Did you need to garauntee a one-shot-stop? Or maybe you pulled it a little just to stun him?
Sorry for the interogation, just curious about the subject.

By the way Joe, I'll look forward to seeing you at your seminar on the 29th. 

Sharif
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Hock

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2006, 07:56:25 AM »

Oh... and another time I got clocked by a heavy rubber training knife on the left/front side of my neck about where the carotted is and it almost dropped me. My entire left side went limp and vision in my left eye went blury. I'm guessing this is due to the sensitive nerves in the throat and their closeness to the brain.


Famous police strike. with a punching fist, a forearm or a hammerfist.  The nerves tell the body that the critical blood flow to the brain has been interrupted. The brain and body have a "lay-down-quick command" (passing out) to get prone to get blood back to the brain.

Fabulous striking point. RARE extenuating damage. There are rare cases on file where a bit of fat in the vein jars loose from impact, hits the brain and causes strike and/or death.

The windpipe strike is a serious strike and a serious problem, and as a foolish young cop I punched a number of throats and it is a wonder nothing really bad happened to those people.

The open, web hand strike is applied many ways. I was first taught in karate to slam the clavacle around the neck with it, then push against the throat. If you get a "football" straight arm behind him it tips the head and you can clothesline people.

The windpipe is a delicate thing, especially as folks get older.
Hock

JimH

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2006, 08:30:23 AM »

The web of hand strike to the throat ,via a bounce up from the chest,is a potentially lethal blow,(depending on the neck health of the opponennt) but it the least likely to cause death as the impact is across a wider area,(which lessens the impact and power at a single point of contact).

The webbing is flesh rather than bone,so this provides a softer strike surface and a bounce(unless it is turned form web to a grab as contact is made).
of the hand off the chest the direct pressure to impact point,the throat, is lessened and  is like running into a large string or rope.

If we deliver the web straight in, rather than bounce off the chest, we run a higher risk of severe injury to the opponent/or death,but again the contact area is soft ,it is skin that has a give and contact will bring the fingers in on impact (this is why it flows well into a trachea grab).

The impact area of the open webbing of the hand ,for most people,will bring some of the impact energy into the larger muscles on the sides of the neck,this disipates the direct impact to the trachea and makes it a more survivalable strike.
(survivable from the stand point of the strike/the weapon of contact,the other side ,again,is the health and strength of the opponents neck/throat,angle of impact,on and on)

The reason for the bounce:
The bounce off the chest is created by an upward slapping motion to the chest that continues on an upward path and creates a slight opening in which to slide the webbing into contact with the throat for those opponents smart enough to tuck their chins in.

My unscientific view of the web strike
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Professor

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2006, 09:25:05 AM »

In a training class (Gold Gym days), I've watched a throat strike become dangerous once...

Barnhart hit Eric Grajo in the throat and dropped him with it.   It took him 15 - 20 minutes to recover enough talk -- more to get off the floor.   It took him a week to fully recover from the blow.

Bad mojo.


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Ed Stowers

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2006, 03:59:03 PM »

The kinetic strikes to the vagus nerve in the pneumogastic sheath on the side of the neck is very effective (hammerfist, knife hand or forearm) in producing varying degress of a knockout as Hock said above and, unless delivered with tremendous power, poses little chance of any permanent injury.  Even a light strike like this causes dizziness, and it is often taught to police officers.  There is still the danger of really knocking the guy out and having him hit his head when he falls, however (which could be fatal, depending on the circumstances).  The vagus nerve and carotids all run along this sheath, so you have both nerve and blood effects.  Generally safe with bare hands, but could easily be lethal if you use a weapon.

I have found finger spears to the "hollow" of the throat  (just above where the clavicles come together)to be fairly effective and cause little permanent damage.  They do set up a coughing/gagging reflex thing, however, so be ready for it.  If the other guy has health issues (asthma, epilepsy, etc.), this could go bad fast.  This is a shot I would not call lethal force, and I wouldn't use it in a lethal force situation.

Strikes to the back of the neck are potentially more dangerous, but require power and angle.  Strong blows there can be potentially life threatening and can cause serious injury to the cervicals and also cause whiplash.

Sleeper holds (chokes) are effective, but can also be fatal, as many police officers have found out to their own dismay, especially after adminsitering a can of pepper spray.

The only really potentially lethal throat blow (by design) I know of with bare hands is the trachea shot, which is generally the Adam's Apple.  If you hit the hollow of the throat, you're probably okay, but raise it an inch or two into the Adam's Apple, and you could kill someone (no shot works all the time; we're talking generalities here).

I remember sparring one time with a member of this forum who made a rushing attack on me.  I was doing all I could to get out of that rush (it was a karate class) and I backpedaled, turned my face away and stuck my hands out defensively to push him off me.  The attack never arrived.  When I back-pedaled far enough, I looked around to see why.  He was on his knees on the mats, holding his throat with both hands.  Apparently, in my haste to escape, I had accidentally jammed my fingers into his trachea.  it wasn't a powerful blow, I hadn't een felt the contact, but it hit just right.  He told me later that he felt his windpipe collapse, and that he had to suck in really hard, at which time  it "popped" open again.  He was very hoarse and his throat was sore for several days.  I could very easily have killed him, and we were just "playing." This was all an accident.  I never even tried to hit his throat.  But you can see how easy it can happen, even when you aren't intending to. 

I'd avoid the front of the throat if possible and stick to the sides of the neck for strikes, unless a lethal blow is justified by the circumstances.  Others here may have more in-depth experience at this, but that was mine and I think it's a generally good rule.  I hope that helps.

Ed
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Joe Hubbard

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2006, 11:24:49 PM »

Hi Sharif

The guy I hit with the web-hand strike was dangerous- a Somalian crack head.  Oddly his neck was skinny and concave shaped.  The blow was effective and definitely caused this guy to back off and leave.  Was it a lethal blow?  Certainly not in this case.  Remember, all things- tactics, tools and strategies are a collection of maybes and maybe nots.  By the way, I did use this technique on New Years Eve just south of the throat (a technique Hock showed me) and it worked well- took the guy's breath away and he backed down.

Ciao

Joe
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arnold

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Re: Deadliness of striking the throat?
« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2006, 06:49:30 PM »

I really didn't hit him, he more like ran into it. And yes he did go down and was not pleased at all. It was not intentional, nor was the strike hard by anyone's standard. See ya
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