Important Links

Hock's Blog

Hock's Downloads

CQC-Facebook

Hock's Facebook

Hock's Seminars

Hock's Shopsite

Hock's Web Page


New Products

Combat Kicks VID

Critical Contact VID

Death Grip of Knife VID

Dominant/Counter VID

First Contact VID

Impact Weapons Book

Knife Book

The Other Hand VID


Lauric Enterprises, Inc.
1314 W. McDermott
Ste 106-811
Allen, TX 75013
972-390-1777

 

 

 


W. Hock Hochheim's

           Combat Centric

Talk Forum for Military, Police, Martial Artists and Aware Citizenry



Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

  • October 17, 2018, 07:29:45 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2

Author Topic: ...and Throwing Knives?  (Read 12676 times)

Sun_Helmet

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21
...and Throwing Knives?
« on: January 10, 2006, 09:35:11 AM »

There is an unspoken assumption here that all mass attacks are done by urban street gangs? We'll start there then and this is the background from which I speak...

I'm speaking from the POV that I know the Atienzas, and have seen them train and work their tactics effectively in REAL time.

Since this IS the SCIENTIFIC Congress forum, and people have brought up that members look at things in that perspective, one has to take into consideration that if one side has actually WITNESSED the training, and seen it APPLIED then SCIENTIFICALLY it lends much credence over opinions based on a training clip on the internet.

Throwing Knives
I know you Sayoc guys love to throw knives, Sun Helmet, but you have to have several and they all have to be quick draw, (are some folders that need opening?) and then you to have and maintain throwing skill. Lots of have-tos.  Most of our soldiers have too much gear to carry. Most of our police and citizens will not or cannot carry two knives. All those have-tos and cannots add up to making throwing knives a minority option for just about 90% of people walking around.


Re military: Some of those are becoming "USED TOs" as info returns from the field... In Sayoc (since you brought it up) we like to focus on those folks who want to be the "HAVE TOs". Btw, we seem to have jumped focus since now it is relating to military not urban street. But I'll flow...

I think if one does not LIKE to practice throwing that is fine. Different strokes and all.
However, the way you place it in context makes it seem that practicing throwing is somehow too difficult... yes, if one does not LIKE to throw or favor throwing.

If one does not like to train with sticks, then that's a "have to" that one must maintain.
if one does not like knives in general, then that's a have to.
If one does not like to shoot or grapple or ad infinitum.
Lots of things we have to maintain.

I don't buy into the reasoning that throwing is ANY different. We can isolate any element of self defense, or street awareness and 90 percent of the people out there will lack a piece of it.
It just matters whether tatctically one considers it as an option.

If one does not TRAIN it, of course it is in the minority.
The minority should not be confused with efficacy.

You will NEVER convince me that throwing knives is nothing but an oddity strategy. And I am not alone. I guess if it is practiced in a proper percentage (very, very small) with other more likely tactics being practiced first and mostly, then it has found a proper place in an overall sound doctrine.

Yes, it has found a proper place in an overall sound doctrine.
One must be able to apply it and show it work.
Once people see it work, then it becomes an OPTION that will always be there for you if you need it.

Btw, how many knife guys here have a second knife on them?
Just wondering.
Why are you guys carrying a second knife?
If you're reasoning is that you can't deploy it anyway... why have a second one?
Is it quickdraw? Why not?

Also, if one does not practice throwing or the incorporate the tactics of throwing into their muscle memory then what makes them think it will be available or more accurate when they decide to throw that bottle, or screwdriver or any object at their assailant to ALLOW you time to deploy a blade?




Clothing
Chaos and motion in combat. Ducking, dodging and weaving...simple question.
Easier to wound/stab/slash a naked man?  Or man in a three-peice suit?


Same.
Unless the tie is a vital target... :)
The suit's jacket bottom is a perfect handle to gain a femoral target, it can actually impede the person trying to evade. There's a reason Moros tied down and wore VERY tight clothing.

Now put a parka on him?

Same.
We've done the test stabbing. It goes through.

Now put the hood up?

Now he dies with warm ears. :)

The myth that a leather collar stops every knife attack? Is there anyone saying that the leather collar is kevlar? Don't think so, but clothing can make a difference. Is he invincible? No.

It doesn't matter if the collar is kevlar, kevlar will still not stop a knife stab.
And the target isn't the collar.
Anatomical structure of the human body is considered as a whole, you can get to the carotids beyond the 'collar'.
 
The carotids go all the way up the sterno line, it goes along the ears (we can add a metal ear muff I suppose)

Is he invincible? Hock, It's not about that.
I'm stating that the contexts are incorrect if we are focusing on collars or clothing impeding anything.
It has to do with what FOLLOWS. 
What kind of knife you use and how you use it.

There's millisecond from a knife grazing a collar (if that is somehow the area people are stabbing at and it impedes anything - which I disagree with but we'll go with that) to the QUARTER inch of space or LESS of retraction you need to flow into the proper vital target.

Let's look at that collar area scientifically, shall we?
How long does it take anyone of us to go from point A (collar) to point B (skin)

Now is it MORE than the distance of a person's arm moving to clear the knife?
Is it MORE than the distance of the person's feet pivoting?
Is it MORE of the distance to any other movement a person can do?

No. Why? because you are already in the reactionary gap and most likely if you train within that space, you will get MULTIPLE shots before you retract.
Unless you train your muscle memory to RETRACT after your first thrust.

Clothes can make a difference, unless you have a samurai sword, or maybe half the size of one. Simply put? Clothing can get in the way of a knife attack. The more clothing? the more it can get in the way. is clothing  body armor? Of course not. Can it get in the way? Impede? Yes.

The more clothing a person has the more:
1. handles I have
2. ways I can twist and move around the person
3. I can smother him
4. more likely use the distance we are going to be in to my advantage. It means we are in a COLD climate, he isn't going to be dancing around once I get in. It is most likely slippery, etc.

Will it get ugly? of course it always will... but thick clothing is an advantage for me.

I have the knife.
The target 'impeded' a millisecond but the distance is the same I never retracted too far with the blade and now I have a handle.
 

Reverse that question. You are about to knife fight. Would you rather be nude, or in a 3-piece suit? Ok, then how about a jacket too? Ok, make that a leather jacket? Layers of clothing may actually help you withstand certain chaotic aspects of  knife attacks. Half slashes, half misses, flicks...a list of possibilties is lengthly about how some clothing is better than none.

It isn't an either/or situation Hock.

You negate one advantage for another.
More clothing means less mobility, more handles. Perfect for a person who knows how to use that to their advantage.
 Three piece suit? with a tie? That tie will be a garrote, it will be my other weapon and it will actually hold the neck stationary or use to drive the guy to the ground as the knife is worked at the opposite angle.

Dress shoes, slippery wax floor? Unstable terrain?

Most likely if I am wearing layers of clothing, so is he.

Except I have trained how to get around that... has he?
And I have the knife.

Let's take back to the context in which we had it. There's a knife projectiled, I close or ESCAPE as I deploy another knife. Same story... except now I either:

1. Caused him to move out of the way (which we've proven in real time RARELY works - ever see how fast baseball players TRAINED to watch a ball duck out of the way at a FAR greater distance to avoid the throws? - how do they end up when actually pull it off?)
2. Get's struck by the blunt end and is bruised ...hard. (anyone can try this at home) More time to deploy blade - escape, attack.
3. Gets a knife in their body.

I didn't see the "drop -away" as the emphasis of the video clip.
I sure did, those openings WERE CREATED by people dropping like dead flies at the touch of the knife. Like their life-switch was turned off. You just can't count on it.

Of course YOU did. But that's where the scientific part comes in.
I'm basing it within the context of the drill.
I was contributing a viable POV since it is based on seeing WHY and HOW it is trained.

I sure didn't, because you posed several inquiries based on the clip and I am answering them from my scientific POV - having actually seen other Atienza drills etc..
The drop away is for the safety of the students attacking.
When we do the melees with the Atienzas, there is no drop away and we use padded sticks.... more likley that people will not acknowledge a hit and keep on attacking.

The concepts STILL work.

Football
Football-like concepts, not exactly footbal per say, should be practiced. The longer you stay fighting with any one person in any group, the badder it gets. Football players run laterally or at an angle. They run every which way. Get outta there! Anyway you can.

Which somehow contradicts the previous statement. if you do NOT practice moving and constant movement and train your muscle memory to respond to tactile/forward aggression instead of visual (drop aways as you stated) then you're stuck.

You see, the 'drop aways' you are seeing are cues for the knife student to keep MOTION - not stay and fight. They won't always 'drop' in their drills, perhaps the attackers have knives and will deploy it, maybe two of them will climb on you... the attackers in this drill is allowing the other student to REACT to aggression, meaning he is angling/escaping when he doesn't feel the aggression and he reacts anytime he feels he is in range or needs to react.

Do you think all these street guys practice at 4 pm everyday like a football team?
Most of them are out-of shape, disorganized punks, with a general, gang rush plan.

Whether they practice like a football team or not or they plain out gang rush... you aren't getting out of there ANY faster running up the middle like a fullback unless:

1. YOU are much LARGER than they are
2. FASTER
3. STRONGER
4. You have a breacher/distraction for you
5. They have given you the middle unwittingly (plus you have one of the above)

To breach the middle.

One does not have to practice everyday .. you just have to see it work ONCE on tv, at a stadium, on the sandlot, on the street to know you cannot run up the middle without those factors above.


 
Typically, they have a rudimentary, surround plan. Are we trying to make excuses for the stay-and-knife-fight model, because we assume ALL gang attacks, nationwide, world-wide, every gang has trained linebackers like the Pittsburgh Steelers?

That's limiting the context of the scenario.
There's no "stay and fight" plan, I was talking about the ESCAPE part:

If your escape plan is to run up the MIDDLE like John Riggins expect to get one's butt turned upside down... unless you are John Riggins, Earl Campbell or Larry Csonka. (staying within an era most might be familiar with...heh)

EVERY gang, every gang that IS a gang knows how to run a gauntlet... it isn't football, but it's the same surround concept. Why move into territory they,  as you stated earlier "maintain" or 'have done"?


 
Real hard-core prison types have been known to make the perfect rat trap. But, change one team member and like football, there is a weak link. But, these are usually assassinations over jail vendettas. 

Which does NOT disagree with the clip. The student is  still finding the weak link, they're just not bulldozing their way through several people to do it... unless they can.

 
My gang school notes say:
(snipped)
Having said all that, the all-purpose, gang attack is a terrible thing and are horrible. But, You will NEVER convince me that I should not have ducking, dodging and escaping with athletic footwork as a primary strategy when attacked by any group. It is not a primary strategy to always stay and always throw knives and always cut and kill everyone on the chance they have trained line backers to catch me as I try to escape.


That's GREAT, wonderful because no one EVER suggested that... :)

In fact I didn't agree with the fullback method, because it actually keeps a person in 'stay and fight' module LONGER than angling out and escape....which is in the clip. Also, consider that the context of the drill as it was presented in this forum was that the student had limits to their escape.
 
That's a perception you based solely on a clip and I was responding based on SEEING what actual strategies the Atienzas use and train in OUTSIDE of the clip, which you inquired about.

Once we understand the context that you:
A. Have not seen the training and are inquiring about it
B. I have seen the training and am informing you about it

Scientifically, it is logical that your doubts are from MY experience well covered in their curriculum.

First off, your description on how people are throwing projectiles is not even evident in the clip!
The projectile is used so that a person can ESCAPE, buy time.. do all the evasions, angling etc.
That projectile as you have stated as well, can be ANY object.

We don't stay training projectiles while staying stationary (which I posted about sometime back).


Is the scope of the video too small then?
Should it be better be called
Urban Gangland Mass Attack? Is it too small a perspective? Offering small solutions to a way bigger, mulit-group problem? The video looks cool as hell. I would like to see it someday. I have not seen it.

I DO NOT KNOW IF ALL WE HAVE TALKED ABOUT HERE, IS ALREADY EXPLAINED ON THE FILM!

I have not seen the film. I cannot review it! I have only seen the free clip. I truly hope all this vital and important information is on there.

Hock

I don't think it's a video, but a clip of ONE isolated drill using a training modifier. It isolates footwork as a mass closes... that's what I got out of it.

best,
--Rafael--
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 11:58:13 AM by Hock »
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: clip?
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2006, 12:05:57 PM »

Whew! My eyes are glazing over.

<<<>>>

Clothes are better than no clothes.
More clothes are better than less clothes.

Can a knife cut or stab through clothing. Of course it can. All these snide remarks about ear muffs and stuff is just completely missing the point. Your odds of survival is simply better in a winter parka than if you were naked. If anyone doesn't  understand this simple fact, well, I just don't know what to say about their basic IQ?

In my knife course, we slash people in clothes like mad also. Once you get going, you get going. Slash, slash, slash. Ear muffs or not. Slash away. But at some point, somebody in a competent, complete knife course has to mention to the students that multi-layers of clothing can play a factor in a knife attack.

 
<<>>

I have always meant football-like, the emphasis on the word "like." Football-like. Football-like, sports-like, athletic-like. Emphasis on the word "like."

<<>>


I will be curious if after people see this film, if it would have better been called...

"Knife Responses to Urban Gang Mass Attacks"

Let us know,
Hock

 
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 11:59:20 AM by Hock »
Logged

mleone

  • Guest
Re: clip?
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2006, 12:30:36 PM »

The size of the knife and mechanics of the knife user determines penetration.
 :)
Switching to another target may allow entry.
Logged

Sun_Helmet

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: clip?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2006, 12:50:21 PM »

Whew! My eyes are glazing over.

If detailed discussion and point by point analysis isn't required then that's cool too. I have other things to do.
There's info that can be shared?

Clothes are better than no clothes.
More clothes are better than less clothes.

It all depends on CONTEXT.
There's PLUSSES and MINUSES to wearing layers of clothing.
It is not one-sided.

Can a knife cut or stab through clothing. Of course it can. All these snide remarks about ear muffs and stuff is just completely missing the point.

The comments weren't written to be snide, when you write "kevlar", I didn't read it as you being snide, Hock.

Staying ON point - Within the context of YOUR post, you were asking about what certain principles and details the Atienza CLIP entailed. I merely responded from the POV that I knew the context and have seen the training first hand.

Is this based on YOUR version of how things go down, or your inquiry about how ATIENZA training BASED ON that clip goes down?

Original Context:
Hock mentioned a knife projectiled having trouble going through a leather jacket.
My initial response was NOT based on this separate thought - "naked versus wearing a winter parka".

Answer:
A projectile can go through clothing,... MUCH easier than a hand gripped knife thrust would.
A projectile powered THRUST (which ALL projectiles basically are - we all know a projectile is not a slash) is MORE powerful than a knife thrust by hand.
Pure physics.
Now if a projectile would not go through leather so easily, than NEITHER will a HAND HELD knife thrust.

Why even use a knife?

If Projectiles are NOT advised using a knife, then why are projectiles WITHOUT a knife advised?

Consider that the secondary weapon still has to be deployed and it takes the same amount of time to do so... knife projectile or bottle projectile, doesn't matter - it takes the same amount of time.

One projectile just happens to have a deadly pointy end.

However, the discussion was somehow limited into a "clothing versus non clothing" discussion, further limited to just the knife breaking surface, which has nothing to do with the clip's context, nor the initial query.

Case in point:

Your odds of survival is simply better in a winter parka than if you were naked. If anyone doesn't  understand this simple fact, well, I just don't know what to say?

To answer that totally separate inquiry:
One can say that it depends on CONTEXT and what a person is up against.

WINTER parka, ... underwater ?
Winter parka with HOOD?...  that would be a perfect handle for repeated thrusts where the parka wearer has limited movability and now visibility.

If one is laying their odds on survivability on whether or not they have clothing on, then they should also factor in that some odds may not favor you as well.
It is NOT a one sided argument. Against THRUSTS, clothing as surface protection becomes even less of an advantage.

The other night I saw someone thrust a harmless looking 2 inch pocket knife against a THICK down blanket, another two layers of sheetst, a 'forgiving' surface and several layers of cloth... it went in without ANY trouble. The distance from retraction (we started with point ON the surface) and power used (mere push into the surface) was minimal.

If we limit the discussion to a SLASH, then we've shifted from the ORIGINAL inquiry:
Projectile ( a power THRUST) into jacket.

In my knife course, we slash people in clothes like mad also. Once you get going, you get going. Slash, slash, slash. Ear muffs or not. Slash away. But at some point, somebody in a competent, complete knife course has to mention to the students that clothing can play a factor in a knife attack.

Excellent, however why would a knife course be INCOMPLETE or INCOMPETENT if they factor in, and train other sides of the equation?

1. THRUSTS... which will go through layers of clothing much much easier than slashes.
2. PROJECTILES (see above but with added power)
3. Tactics using clothing AGAINST its wearer. Removing the 'safety net' of protection and indicating the vulnerabilities of it instead.

The clothing principles you mention are included in other knife courses but placed within context. To the contrary, neither incompetent nor incomplete, would you agree?

I have always meant football-like, the emphasis on the word "like." Football-like. Football-like, sports-like, athletic-like. Emphasis on the word "like."

Yes, I meant the same as well, in the context of football-LIKE... the lateral angling works best. Fullback-like down the middle, offers two flanks and easier closing for the attackers.

I will be curious if after people see this film, if it would have better been called...
"Knife Responses to Urban Gang Mass Attacks"

The question here lies whether that captures the universality of the drill's footwork concepts?

This clip is but a piece of a very large puzzle. I offer the benefit of the doubt go to the Atienzas based on my experience in seeing them in action.

Unsnidely yours,   ;D
--Rafael--
Logged

aus-man

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: clip?
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2006, 02:01:50 AM »

all this talk of throwing knives makes me wonder? i would never throw my knife, ever. why practice getting rid of the only thing that may make the difference in you getting home. i have the congress knife that was made in australia a few years back and it will slash through a protective vest. Why would you want to run the risk of giving it to someone else. You can never guarantee any knife technique in a survival situation, but i'll take my chances with the ones that dont include volunteered disarms. If you have the chance to get away, then get away. if you don't have that chance and you have to defend yourself then for christs sake do it! if you're trying to wound or kill an opponent and you can't get through an article of clothing, then aim somewhere else. Its a very simple thing, you do what you can to get home again, knife fighting naked however makes it a real uphill battle!!
Logged

Sun_Helmet

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: clip?
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2006, 09:09:23 AM »

all this talk of throwing knives makes me wonder? i would never throw my knife, ever. why practice getting rid of the only thing that may make the difference in you getting home.

That's fine if you practice that way, you can also carry another knife.

Its a very simple thing, you do what you can to get home again, knife fighting naked however makes it a real uphill battle!!

Nothing guarantees you will have that ONE knife for long either. I've seen guys who have tremendous grip strength lose their blade accidentally. If you never practice deploying another knife, are you really covering all the bases?

Aren't you less 'naked' if you have multiple blades?

--Rafael--


--Rafael--

Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2006, 07:19:10 AM »

These are just great questions for everyone to think about.

If Projectiles are NOT advised using a knife, then why are projectiles WITHOUT a knife advised?

Value and potential of the weapon counts, I think. Because, I think there is weapon continums of value. What kinds of stuff do you want to throw away? In theory, anything can be a projectile weapon, I have seen a deck of cards thrown, lamps, chairs, ashtrays, etc. What do you decide to throw? What to keep as a shield and a battering tool? What is the value of the so-called projectile in this fight.

Extreme value example
An unarmed man threatens you. You have two pistols. Do you throw one pistol at him to distract him? So, as to draw and shoot him with the second? Do you draw and fight with two pistols. Silly isn't it to think about? But think about it. Probably you have made a decision to keep the pistol. But, if you have four pistols on you? Then do you throw one pistol to distract him? The pistol has greater value in the big picture in your hand.

I think you have to conclude there is a "type of weapon" continuum/consideration when throwing weapons. (This pistol thing is nothing but used as a mere analogy-please no long dissertations about throwing pistols!)

The value of the weapon counts. To throw or not to throw. You wouldn't want the enemy and/ or his mass attack friends to pick up your thrown pistol. Nor would you like the enemy or his mass attack friends to pick up your thrown knife.

Take one "weapon's step" down now to the knife. Two knives. Three knives? Four knives.  One a Bowie? One a smaller folder? Which one do you throw? Which to keep? Would you feel better fighting with two knives in your hand or throwing one away on the highly variable chance it might stick, or it will at least distract. The more knives you have? I guess the lesser value is placed on any single one knife.

Throw an ashtray? Sure. It has little value to me as a weapon to keep. Throw a spear? You bet! Darts? You bet. Some projectile weapons are really designed primaily for thowing. Some less. Throwing knives-(as in knives designed for throwing?) Better. I and a great many others have trouble with these offical throwing knives. It takes rehearsed skills to throw them. The skills are perishable. The targets vary in distance and speed. If you make me calculate knife flips to distances? Against moving targets? I am in big, big trouble. And if I am an expert in February. I am rusty at this in May. Will it, once tossed distract someone? Will it hurt if the small, throwing knife hit wrong? Ahhh, maybe.

You stand 15 feet from me pull out a 12 inch bowie knife and heave it like an olympic athlete. I am freaken’ ducking. I am distracted. I have been stalled for...5 seconds if it misses? Then you pull out your second knife and there is a knife fight or some kind of fight? Would you rather have fought me with two knives in your hands or one? Are you carrying three big bowies? Four? Eight? What?

HOW OFTEN DOES THAT EXACT SITUATION REALLY HAPPEN? You are in the woods with four quick draw knives. You are discovered by a sole enemy and he charges you.  He won't shoot you, You can't shoot him. You throw one knife as he charges. What is this situation? And therefore, how much priority should that study be in the doctrine of a reality program? How often does that exact or similar situation really happens. But, just because it is practiced does not mean it is wrong to practice it. Over prioritizing it in a reality program is the wrong part.

Who throws knives, why and where?
Split up in the next part....


Hock
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 12:29:12 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2006, 07:35:34 AM »

Part Two of this...Here is the root of much confusion...

Now. There needs to be systems that keep knife throwing alive. There needs to be a body of knowledge available that does it. People need to keep a martial art alive that throws knives for all sorts of reason. Somewhere, somebody needs to have knife throwing programs.

It is ONLY when, an advertised reality system over-emphasizes knife throwing over more important, practical events is there a reality-based, doctrine problem.

Example.The Big Picture

Billy Bob's Real World, Practical, Tactical Knife Combat Course.
20% of it or more is knife throwing? I just don't think that is good. 4% ot it? 2%? Hey, I am with ya'. I can see where if a knife system wants to be really, REALLY be comprehensive, it might be covered.

Billy Bob's Filipino Martial Arts
Single stick, double stick, stick-and-knife, H2H, knife, staff, bullwhips, knife-throwing, darts, etc, etc. etc....GO FOR IT!!!! Sounds great! Because it is what is it. Picking on Billy Bob for doing a little knife throwing in his program is really just not fair to Billy. Billy Bob knows what he is doing and where it fits in his FMA program. Traditionally, FMA people throw knives, use whips, throw various powders into people's eyes, disarm double sticks. Flick darts....a while host of FMA things.They do what they do. They are what they are. It is FMA! But Billy should have a healthy understanding of where he fits in the bigger oustide picture. Billy has to be prepared to best explain this.

Personally? I support this idea to the max! I support Sayoc, Atienza, Presas, Inosanto, Lameco, etc, etc  to the max. FMA needs to be alive and kicking on the landscape of martial arts systems. As I feel with Karate, Thai and all the things that people like to do.

But for me, not being in an FMA-but only linked abstractly, I will not over-emphazise throwing knives. Practical/Tactical/Situational/Position. Who is likely to throw knives in the situations? Like the one one I mentioned?  Police? NO. SWAT? No. People in the civilized nations fighting criminals? No. In some cases in the Uk and Australia, or many American cities, carrying one knife is ilegal. One thinks, "well, maybe the military?"

In the militaries of the world, you will find small pockets of knife and axe throwers, but they are rare. The Russian Speznetz puts some prioroty on throwing knives, but I read this comes mostly from throwing practice with their special shovels first and foremost, and then they do some knife throwing. More shovel throwing than knife. I did extensive research for the book Military Knife Fighting, scouring hundreds of military histories and found only two knife throwing stories. A Beret was startled by a close-up VC and flung his big knife about 2 feet. Thunk! Dead. The second was a gypsy who threw a big knife from his backpack at a Nazi.

Yet most military professionals do not carry mutliple knives in these quick draw situations, with body armor and frearms. In the military book, Deadly Fighting Skills of the World", Steven Crawford writes...

"All elite troops are taught to use the knife to varying degrees though this usually entails using it to slash or stab. Throwing a knife is a different matter and reguires many hours of training and re-training. When it comes to throwing knives, it can be considered very rare among the special Forces brotherhood."

Somewhere, somebody, some system needs to keep throwing knives and experimenting with them, and it might be unfair to criticize a system, FMA or otherwise that does it...somewhat.

Hock
« Last Edit: January 17, 2006, 07:51:30 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
Logged

aus-man

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2006, 04:54:17 AM »

if you're aware of your surroundings, then fair enough throw what you can, if you carry a multitude of weapons then you may afford to throw one, but you need to hold on to the best weapon you can. mine is my knife, and theres only one way i'll let someone else have it! Never throw your last resort!
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2006, 09:50:51 AM »

if you're aware of your surroundings, then fair enough throw what you can, if you carry a multitude of weapons then you may afford to throw one, but you need to hold on to the best weapon you can. mine is my knife, and theres only one way i'll let someone else have it! Never throw your last resort!

Yup, and everything is positional and situational, solved by practical, tactical solutions. Sometimes when we get down to really discussing specifics things? It over-emphasizes them and sounds like the specific things are the main things and they really aren't.

Hock



 

lakerssportsfan

  • Level 2
  • ***
  • Posts: 90
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2006, 11:51:10 PM »

Why would anyone want to throw a knife even if you could damage the person you are throwing at when there are lots of people attacking you and you might not get a chance to draw another?

Its like the styles that teach kicking to the head who try to kick to the head even when its the worst thing to do.
Logged

tlouis

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 102
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2006, 05:25:53 AM »

For a while i got into to knife throwing,more for fun than SD. The only distance i would even think of throwing a knife for SD is under 3 feet. I found that, wiht the right knife, i can get great penetraion and reiability due to the fact that no roation is neccessary. However, the throw requires a straihgt arm and large arc, so if your that close why not just close and thrust. I did experiment wiht an underhand throw  at close distance, agian no rotation on knife, but the penetraion was not sufficient in my mind.
Logged

Kentbob

  • JOAT
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 2107
  • Sound the horn and call the cry
    • Antrim Self-Protection
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2006, 12:16:48 PM »

  I heard of a gentleman in Alaska that used throwing knives to hunt rabbits.  He was and elderly gentleman, as I recall.  So, think of all the time and energy that must have gone into developing that kind of skill.  As Hock said, I think knife throwing has its place, in a small percentage of a practical doctrine, and a larger place in a traditional style.  I personally, would throw my knife, under 5 feet, hoping to distract or slow the guy down long enough to either A) Reload, or B) Draw another weapon or two.  But, since I don't typically carry a fixed blade knife, chances are pretty good that by the time I have my primary blade out and deployed, its going to be game on!  And throwing in a mass attack situation?  I could see this as a preemptive sort of thing, again provided that I have a secondary weapon, either pistol or knife, or impact weapon.  But, if its a folder, by the time I get ready to throw, its going to be game on again.  Better to draw the weapon, try to draw a second one, and start to get it stuck in, in my opinion.
  Having said all that, I always wanted to learn how to throw a knife, just for fun.  Throwing knives has an incredible cool/sexy factor, you know?  So, that is the way I feel about it.

Kent
Logged
"Specialization is for insects."-Robert A. Heinlein

http://antrimmasp.blogspot.com/

aus-man

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2006, 11:44:56 PM »

its a good point to say not to close the door on something, as everything has a place, good or bad. There may be times when throwing a weapon can be very handy, especially if you have the skill to do it. i think we're all in agreeance that you wouldn't throw your only weapon, but if you are in possession of one or two secondary weapons then throwing one could either do damage to your opponent, or act as a distraction for entry the same as a set of keys, newspaper or anything else that may be in reach. I guess you need to think about range, and the possible results of throwing your weapon. and kentbob u are right, there is definitely a cool factor
Logged

tlouis

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 102
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2006, 05:52:10 AM »

It is a lot of fun throwing. Very cool when you start regularly regularly sticking them at at 10-15 feet. Be warned - those knifes bounce an incredible distance when they hit flat.
Logged

Sun_Helmet

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 09:07:55 AM »

You stand 15 feet from me pull out a 12 inch bowie knife and heave it like an olympic athlete. I am freaken’ ducking. I am distracted. I have been stalled for...5 seconds if it misses? Then you pull out your second knife and there is a knife fight or some kind of fight? Would you rather have fought me with two knives in your hands or one? Are you carrying three big bowies? Four? Eight? What?

If one threw their knife, they ARE fighting with two knives. One just either stuck it deep into the target's face/chest/kidney/spine, or caused a hard impact blow that could break an eye socket or cause stitches (a guy recently threw a foam action flex stick in training at someone running AT him, and caused several stitches on the brow, plus stopped the guy dead in his tracks due to impact - cause was the PLASTIC handle!)  or caused a thrust wound far deeper than a gripped thrust, or they missed (which is actually a low percentage at that range).

If there's doubt on the advantages of throwing a knife, then the best way to test it is through simulated scenarios.

KILLSHOT
Start it with one guy with three knives, and the other with one.

Watch how the scenario drastically changes, and how tactics evolve once people catch on on the do's and don'ts of throwing a projectile. Grips change, deployments change, ranges change...etc.
Now add several scenario based training modifiers to the equation and watch it evolve.
Now do it for thirty years.
Will it still look the same?

If one is concerned of an attacker picking up a knife against them then do NOT throw it.
If one has studied the tactics of projectiles and used it effectively for thirty plus years, then throw it.
Simple as that. There really is no wrong or right on this. It is situation based.

At fifteen feet, once the knife is thrown and the person reacts to it -  NO ONE will have time to duck.
One's only hope is if the guy MISSES. (hope the guy hasn't been grouping his throws in one foot groups at that range on a moving target)
And also that the thrower wasn't FAKING a throw to get the target to react, so he can frame in on the target's second stage of reaction.
Reactionary Response starts at over twenty feet with a projectile.
The Tueller drill proves that a man can't even DRAW a weapon at eighteen feet, much less react to evade a throw at fifteen. One would have to be a 3 time gold winning OLYMPIC knife dodger to evade that.

We've proven it THOUSANDS of times in seminars with... CHOPSTICKS... which are FAR FAR safer, and the weight of the chopstick is basically nil compared to a heavier weapon that actually has momentum behind it.
With a knife that has weight, all the target will know is something hit them VERY hard and it has FAR more IMPACT power than a straight thrust with a gripped knife.

At FIVE seconds, the scenario has altered. The knife guy can cover 80 feet or so of distance....ESCAPING or CLOSING.

As per percentage of curriculum, the projectile is but ONE range of a scenario. One can skip it entirely. The one thing most of us agree on is that the OPTION is there. If one trains with that range in mind, then that means they have also added in the precautions of projectiles being used AGAINST them. It will change how you close and escape as well.

One might actually want the guy to TRY to pick up that knife. There's tactics that work perfectly against that guy who has 'knife tunnel vision'. It's one of the first exercises we do with the training rig.

As per military using the knives as throwers... SF teams we have trained already do.
The results thus far have been VERY positive.

To clarify, Sayoc (since Hock has brought up) is not just FMA (not that there's anything wrong with that - SFS has a lot of FMA in it). It's the consolidated experiences of all the Sayoc instructors who have blade experiences from various arts, western and eastern. The base is FMA, but the progression of Sayoc for the past thirty years, is to EVOLVE the FMA beyond the limitations of culture. To think about edged weapons beyond cultural boundaries.

Therefore, Sayoc Tactical is A knife course taught today to various military groups primarily because it is NOT centered on a culture based curriculum of FMA, but adapted to the specifications and requirements of soldiers out on the field. How they move, their tactics, their gear, their goals. The curriculum is culled from experiences and info from various sources that Sayoc has been fortunate to cultivate. Just like Hock's group here in the states, just because he once practiced FMA does not mean he is purely Filipino... evolution happens.


Thanks for allowing the clarification.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali

« Last Edit: February 10, 2006, 09:21:30 AM by Sun_Helmet »
Logged

Sun_Helmet

  • Forum Member
  • *
  • Posts: 21
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 09:09:11 AM »

It is a lot of fun throwing. Very cool when you start regularly regularly sticking them at at 10-15 feet. Be warned - those knifes bounce an incredible distance when they hit flat.

True, which is why target throwing and tactical throwing are two different animals altogether.

--Rafael--
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: Clip (and Throwing Knives?)
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 11:57:45 AM »

This came up in another topic. Worth re-reading.

(99.9% of the time, there is no reason to throw a knife, In years of research, I have found only two successful, odd, situational, military-based knife throwings. One VERY close range - an instinctive toss into an NVA who popped up within three feet of a Green Beret. Both instances there were no rotations on the blade. That blade.  A short power heave. If anyone has read or heard of any knife throwing scenarios, please let me know - Hock)
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 12:00:20 PM by Hock »
Logged

JKDish

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 12:57:19 PM »

How about that Sgt Vsughn fella? One Nazi. Dead. Commando dagger in his neck I believe.
Logged

JKDish

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 12:59:38 PM »

I meant Vaughn. U.S. Army I believe.
Logged

Benjamin Liu

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 01:50:22 PM »

That was George "Skeeter" Vaughan.  The story is covered in "Knife and Tomahawk Throwing" by Harry McEvoy, pages 88-101.  He grew up hunting by throwing knives and tomahawks and even did it professionally for shows before WWII.  The knife was a 16" throwing knife improvised from a bayonet and the sentry was killed by a hit to the head at 87 feet.
Logged

JKDish

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 03:04:56 PM »

87 feet???????

Logged

Benjamin Liu

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 03:33:42 PM »

That's what the book says, I don't know how accurate the account it.

He was probably also the knife-throwing equivalent of an Olympic champion, certainly not a typical knife thrower.  Not all swimmers can be Michael Phelps.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 03:36:40 PM by Benjamin Liu »
Logged

JKDish

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2009, 04:32:00 PM »

Yeah-and not all hammer-throwers can be these guys from Scotland. Who I find very impressive. Thing is-I am newly a practionor of shurukenjutsu. Art of throwing just for the sake of mastering the art. No Hock, you dont "have to have a base art" but you CAN have a few you do for the other purposes of martial arts.

Anyhoo- I really like to just throw knives- so I find guys like this pretty inspiriational. I always did think it would be cool if they made a sport like that an Olympic one. Hell, they have archery and javelin. Like I said, I am hardly an expert, just started more or less a few years back. Fun stuff.
Logged

JKDish

  • Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 31
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2009, 04:35:03 PM »

Hock, let me clarify-when I directed that at you I was not mocking you. I just remember when you posted people saying (whining) you have to have a base art. Full o shite of course.

Logged

Benjamin Liu

  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 487
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2009, 04:46:15 PM »

I looked it up in the book before posting.  I'd need another source like the actual military records of the incident.  A 30 foot rather than almost 30 yard throw would be much more believable.  It could be one of those war stories that changed with each telling, but I also won't say it did not happen.  It did say that he was surprised that it worked and that he had guys ready to shoot the sentry if he failed.
Logged

Hock

  • Administrator
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 6324
    • www.HocksCQC.com
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2009, 04:53:48 PM »

I'd REALLY like to use it in my book, but will check around first, for a second source or something. If there is one.

The book was published by Tut Press. Not well known and offf the charts now, which is why the book is free on the internet.

Dwight McClemore passes through here every three days or so and probably knows a little bit more abut the book and Tut.

It sounds a bit Hollywood-ish, legend-ish, where the guy wound up working, which helps the fame thing and the job-getting campaign.

But I'll bet he must have been a helleva knife thrower otherwise.

Hock

Professor

  • In your house drinking your coffee
  • Level 4
  • *****
  • Posts: 1818
  • The Warlord
Re: clip?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2009, 06:42:21 AM »

all this talk of throwing knives makes me wonder? i would never throw my knife, ever. why practice getting rid of the only thing that may make the difference in you getting home.

That's fine if you practice that way, you can also carry another knife.

Its a very simple thing, you do what you can to get home again, knife fighting naked however makes it a real uphill battle!!


I carry a gun for a projectile weapon and a knife for close work.    I don't throw knife and I don't slice with a gun.   



Nothing guarantees you will have that ONE knife for long either. I've seen guys who have tremendous grip strength lose their blade accidentally. If you never practice deploying another knife, are you really covering all the bases?

Aren't you less 'naked' if you have multiple blades?

--Rafael--


--Rafael--


I have  a gun as a projectile weapon and a knife for close work.

Practical and appropriate.   
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 06:46:49 AM by Professor »
Logged
  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Mr. Barnett

  • Level 3
  • ****
  • Posts: 245
Re: ...and Throwing Knives?
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2009, 01:56:13 PM »

Hey there Prof,
wow, whata thread.....

knives are for cake, if you wanna throw something, throw a party.


Gerald.



Logged
-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-
Pages: [1] 2
 

Download