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[crane2]

11/10/04

Mike,

Awhile back, I put a post on the women's self defense forum asking for advise on chest protectors for women who participate in live stick sparring.  I think I am going to go with Tony Blauer's Panic Attack gear and here's why...

I have trained and taught the martial arts for 20 plus years.  For the past 2 years, I have trained in modern defensive tactics, based largely on the Filipino combative arts and Hock's material, under Guro Steve Carroll, Richmond, KY.  I am an assistant instructor and co-owner of Filipino Combative Arts.  In our school, we do padded stick sparring.  Live (rattan) stick sparring is optional but strongly encouraged.  I agreed to give it a try.  Am I crazy--maybe.  However, I chose to stick spar because  a) I don't believe in asking a student to do something I wouldn't do myself and  b) I want to become a better stick fighter and to face my fear of getting hit, looking foolish, freezing up under stress, hitting someone, etc...
Here's how it went.  First, it wasn't pretty!  The first time I faced Steve, stick in hand and "war face on" I was scared silly.  Believe me, I had good reason to be.  He's fast, he can move and boy can he hit and hit a lot!  We had hockey gloves on and Kali helmuts and that's about it.  Targets were hands, head, arms and ribs....Well-the first time he closed the gap-I forgot 99% of everything I ever knew about anything!  But-I didn't completely freeze, I didn't run and I didn't give up and reality of what would work set in pretty quickly!  I got a shot or two in.  That's the good part.  I did get hit a bunch, it did hurt, I did "forget" to block and I paid for it.  I was bruised for a while.  However, as Steve says, "If ya like your buddy, hit your buddy.  Strike right st the target.  You aren't doing him/her any favors but giving him a false sense of security."  As I said, I got hit a lot.  However, it was an invaluable experience.  I think it helped a lot that Steve knew I was scared and limited the rounds to 1 or 2 mins. and afterwards we sat down and analysed what happened, how I could be more effective next time and he was supportive and encouraging.  Even though I got the tar beat out of me I felt good about this experience and I learned a lot.  First, I took a the risk and faced my fears and that helped me grow as a person, an instructor and a martial artist.  Second, a fist coming at me seems a whole lot less fearsome after being hit by a stick- a stick hits a lot harder and moves a lot faster.  I gained some confidence---not false confidence.  I know my limitations but at least I know I won't totally freeze.  Each time I get a little better at managing the stress and adrenaline dump...but each time it's still scarey.  I know more about what will realistically work and what won't.  The second time we sparred I did a little better and even got one pretty good shot in...Steve used it on my the first time we sparred so I guess I learned a new tactic too...I'm glad I did it.  That's about it.
I hope others will share their live stick sparring experiences also...
Karen

[Joe Hubbard]

Hey Crane 2

Nice one!  Yeah, get stuck in and feel the fear anyway.  I believe that it is important to spar, but only really 5% of you overall training.  The rest should be your skill development, isolated tool development and combat scenarios developed from A to Z in a progressive combative manner.  The problem that I see with many instructors is they’ll have you do Sumbrada, Numerada or Hubud at the lowest ebb on the force continuum and then throw you to the wolves to spar.  They then evaluate that when they spar they can’t pull anything off and conclude that these drills are useless.  I like to have my students eventually doing these and other drills with equipment and going for broke way before they are thrown to the wolves.  It definitely works!

Cheers

Joe

P.S.  The Blauer High Gear suit is the best!

[crane2]

11/12/04

Joe,
Thanks for the support and the info on the Blauer gear... and I agree with you on the 5% ratio.  The idea of padding up and doing the drills before getting "thrown to the wolves" is a really good one...  Maybe a key to bridging the gap between stick sparring and scenarios and flow drills.
Thanks Again,
Karen

[kamagong]

Hey guys!  I am Karen's instructor and partner in the school.  If she keeps giving me compliments my head will swell so big I can't get it through the door!  

Karen fought very well, she isn't afraid of getting hit, and knows she will take punishment.  She ended up with a nasty mark on her forearm from a punyo which will probably leave a scar.

We have been doing drills for a while.  The way we usually do it is teach them the basics, then move up to drills.  We are careful to explain to people why they do the drills and what they are trying to accomplish from doing them.  They may only use one technique, or transition that the drill teaches, and the drills are also to teach attributes such as timing coordination, etc. 

We then work on Palit-Palit (3 for 3, 2 for 2 etc.), and the combat drills where A feeds an angle, B defends against the angle and follows up with 3-5 shots.  We give them striking combinations that are preset, much like preset boxing combinations.  Then, we work entries,and explain that they must be aggressive both on offense and defense.

Then, we start sparring by allowing them to strike only the hands, then soon, the hands and head, then hands head and body.  We isolate this this way so that they know the area they need to defend, and can use the techniques from the drills as defense of these areas, and can work them.  We do empty hand and knife sparring the same way.

I like isolation of skill developement like this because when I was in "Karate" school years ago, we were "thrown to the wolves" as Joe aptly put it in sparring.  No one learned a thing!  We built bad habits and technique that took forever to unlearn.  That's how we build up to it, let me know how you guys do your sparring!

[mpbelzer]

Hey Karen!

Good to hear from you and about your first experience doing live stick sparring.  You brought up so many good points, and I would like to respond to them.  First, congratulations on being the co-owner of your school - Filipino Combatives.  That is quite an accomplishment in itself: creating a training space that allows you to transmit the knowledge you have gained in the arts to others as you continue to grow in the arts yourself.  Second, the fact that after being involved in the martial arts for over 15 years before you found the Filipino style (along with Hock's CQC format) that you train in now, did not  "close your mind" to a different method of training is also impressive.  Third, you decided to confront your fears and put them on the line in an experience that very few people (especially women) would ever choose to do as a personal growth experience: Live stick sparring.

Your actual experience sparring with Guro Steve gave you quite a bit of "turbo charged" feedback in a short period of time.  Probably a few minutes.  Maybe five minutes?  Even 60 seconds feels like a long time when both people are whacking at each other.  I'd like to hear more about your experience with your 'adrenal reaction" as you prepared for your match, were actually in it and then "recovered" from it right afterwards. What kinds of physical, mental and emotional reactions did you experience?  There are the usual "classic" experiences like that some people experience like : "Tachypsychia - spped of the mind" where normal speed motion is perceived to be going more slowly (allowing one to "see openings" more easily".  Not feeling pain immediatley is another classic sign of an "adrenal reaction to a combative experience.  What were yours?

Your experience of feeling like 99% of what you knew was "forgotten" by you is a common one, especially in the beginning.  The stress of the event seems to 'hide" most of the techniques you learned in a non-stressful environment.  You are left with only the most basic gross motor movements.  The fact that you stayed in the game, kept moving and kept attacking means to me that if you keep doing this kind of training, more and more of your other techniques will become available to you under stress.

The fact that Guro Steve gave you "real attacks" and made solid contact on you is a sign of respect to you as a martial artist. When men train with women, there is always an underlying concern that we "do not want to hurt them".  Because of that training usually goes a little slower, a little less strong and consequently less stressful.  When guys train with guys, experiencing some pain and even getting hurt is part of the deal.  It is to be expected and as long as we are not being seriously injured or hurt by an asshole, we are happy with a few 'war wounds'.  "Pain keeps you honest".

Let me know how the Blauer gear works out.  It seems like it would be perfect for stick sparring and using it might even give more women a feeling like "I could do that".  I agree with Joe and your instructor Steve that training needs to be progressive before going 'all out" in a sparring context.  Otherwise it is too easy to develop bad habits based on fear of being hit.

I am interested in hearing more about how your school breaks down it's training.  What kind of classes tso you offer?  Also do you offer specialized training for kids, women etc?

That's it!

Mike "he's that stick guy" Belzer

[crane2]

11/20/04

Hi Mike,
I just read your e-mail and am in the process of answering your questions.  Thank you for the support.  I appreciate it.  I would like to know what progression you would recommend. 
As for the answers to you questions....
Before the "live stick" match Steve and I workout out a bit.  It took some of the edge off but it was in the back of my mind pretty much the whole time.  Emotionally-I was mixed up between fear and excitement.  I wanted to do the live stick sparring but I was afraid I would freeze up and let fear take control of me.  Also, fear of getting hurt and of hurting another person.  I was excited because I knew I would grow as a stick fighter (though I also grew as a person)from facing my fear.  My mind didn't slow down and I didn't really see openings or really much of what was coming at me.  This has happened to me during sparring (empty hand) but not this time.  I was more focused on survival and making myself focus enough to move vs. freeze which is what I wanted to do.  Part of me really wanted to have this experience of live stick sparring-crazy though this seems.   Frustrated that I kept getting hit...That's all I remember.
Physically, I felt pretty tense.  My breathing and heart rate were up there I'm sure.  I was excited but with Steve's help and respect I was able to face my fear... I had to really concentrate on breathing and I could manage one strike but flow and combinations didn't really happen or strategy the first time.  My strategy was defensive..survival maybe not the best strategy.  The second time I did a little better with putting together more than one strike and even got in a strike or two thought I'm sure I got hit with a lot more!  I felt hand hits throught the gloves, head strikes were more of a stun because of the helmuts but I sure do have respect for those and was very thankful for the helmut.  Some hits I took I didn't feel.  I did get hit in the legs but they didn't hurt that much when I got hit-stung but later they hurt.  Also, Guro Steve got in a puno to my forearm and was bleeding but I didn't really feel pain from it at the time.  I didn't even realize I'd been hit until another student said something to me. It bruised and I still have a small scar from it but at the time...didn't feel it. 
I do want to say you are very correct in saying that Guro Steve showed respect for me by going hard at me and I REALLY appreciate it.  That's how I can learn to manage gear and pain and learn what really works!!!  I have had many male training partners and instructors who have had a hard time with this.  I can understand that men are socialized not to hit women and in most cases this is great but not when it comes to learning realistic self defense.   I thank and commend Guro Steve for being able to overcome this barrier!!! 

Karen

[Kaliman33]

Hi Guys,
just yesterday i was trained by guro larry lindenman, he is probably the best guy EVER produced by guro inosanto with the stick. He is old fashioned mentality, he hits you til you block.
for an hour and a half we basiclly sparred. no gear, no padding. full rattan, but to a controlled contact but not controlled speed, the thing about him is the stick is in one place and then you are hit in another, i was thrusted in the face twice (but controlled) hit up side the head, legs, arms, torso. I cannot but my hands in my pockets because my knuckles hurt so bad, that is the only pain spots because he hit them probably 100 times.
The point is i am 100% better at sparring than i was when he came in, he taught me how to check and not tap, how in most sumbrada exchanges we hot and counter, hit and counter, but you should just hit, hit , hit, how if you go for a block and he fakes you hit down the middle because you hand has to cross sometime, and not to use little tap shots but shots that count,
I personally feel i could hold my own with just about anyone, it was awsome, i will be training with him again in about a month cause it will probably be that long before i could stand another knuckle shot, no gear changes everything and you can do it so injuries are minimul.

Marc Halleck
www.silatcombatives.com
www.nsama.com

[kamagong]

Sounds like solid advice Marc!  Good job on the sparring.  I have never done the no gear sparring thing.  Don't trust myself of other people with control that much, and I want to keep what brain cells I have left, I have a Bachelors degree worth of stuff in there somewhere!

[Kaliman33]

I totally agree, i would not spar with someone who i knew had no control, i would never up it to dog brother style, this was as close as you could get without getting you head bashed, the only thing really missing from this as actual combat was intent to harm, other wise all the factors were present.
Maybe at the Dallas camp i will teach a section on this, if you are interested let me know and hock will let me i'm sure.

Marc

[mpbelzer]

Hi Karen, (Steve, Marc, and Everyone else!)

Thanks for your insights on your first experience with live stick sparring.  Let us know how things progress as you have different matches.  As far as a progression goes, I don't think it matters to much what progression you use.  Just follow your instructor's program and you will be able to build skills while under the stress of someone giving you real attacks (trying to hit you hard, while moving forward).

Any progression will isolate a specific skill (like angles 1 &2) and then apply that one skill to a range of different situations.  Once that is done, then the intensity and the power is turned up.
Then, another skill set is added to the mix - maybe a fig.8 pattern and you build the same way.

Let us jnow how the Bluaer gear is working out for you.  Are you adding striking, kicking, takedowns, and/or grappling to any of your sparring.  I think the Blauer gear is designed to work in all of those ranges, allowing you moderate (not full) contact.

Marc-

Your sparring/learning session with Larry Linderman sounded excellent.  Yes, see if you can present somethin at the Ring of Fire in Dallas.  I hope to be there and would like to participate.  Hopefully you could also present a few progessions of your Silat Combatives as well!

Today, I find myself in New York city for the week to celebrate T-Day with some friends.  I have been here several times before but it always seems like the first time to me.  A unique and amazing city that has so many personalities...  I do the same thing many of you do when you travel.  Whip out the Yellow Pages and see who is listed teaching martial arts in the area.  I saw an ad for "Modern Arnis/Dumog" located in the Lower Eastside and called up the number listed.  The owner of the school happened to be there (in the morning) and introduced himself as Guro Doug Pierre and I gave him my name and a little of my history.  He invited me to stop by and I am glad I did.  Guro Doug's school teaches a jujutsu/karate program to children and the Filipino weapon arts to adults.  His school has about an 800 sq. ft matted training area upstairs and dressing rooms with showers downstairs. There is even a small backyard for outdoor training with the hanging tires, a board for throwing knives and a makiwara.  It is a "neighborhood" school that has a hardcore/family atmosphere to it.  His guys are preparing for a full contact tournament coming up in New Jersey and for many of them it will be their first experience.

As usual, martial arts is a very small world.  Guro Doug has been to the Philippines several times and trained with GM Antonio Ilustrisimo each time he was there to compete in different tournaments.  We exchanged stories of the different experiences we each had in the Philippines, training with GM Ilustrisimo, his senior student Tony Diego and others.  One interesting note (of many) is that Guro Doug said that he has attended  two separate funerals of Filipino instructors who had competed in "death matches".  No need to say it but I will.  They lost.

If I attend training on Wed. night, I will report back on what the experience was like.  I am sure it will be a good one.  You can usually tell right away when someone is for real or not and Guro Doug Pierre is part of the "Real Deal" team.

That's it for now!

Mike "He's that stick guy" Belzer

[kamagong]

Hey guys!  I will not be able to make it to the Dallas Ring of Fire camp Marc, but if you will be at the one in Kansas next year, I should be at that one, I would love to check out your methods on sparring, sounds great!   You guys have a great Turkey day!

Take care Marc, Mike, Karen, and all!

[Hock]

Start with the infamous increasing 12's drill. Go 1- through-12.
Then do the other Increasing 12 steps in the increasing 12s outline: the counter-strikes and so forth. Then don't follow the pattern of 12. (Jeez! Everybody just likes to re-invent the wheel...someday...people will take a real, good hard look at the SDMS stick course and see that see that everything that everybody else does...is already in that SDMS course, plus so, so much more.)

In our SDMS Killshot training (Level 4 of the SDMS course), we reward the head shot for its reality impact and a judge/coach steps in and stops the battle. None of this mindless helmet-bashing that teaches students to virtually commit suicide. Consequently, attacking his head and then protecting your head is a major strategy. This is the essence of the stick sparring. A good fake! A ballistic charge! A vital strike. I recall a line that Remy Presas use to say,

                 "You train your whole life for a 4-second stick fight."

Interesting because, Remy had many a real fight and I know where some of the "bodies are buried."

In the Killshots, if both parties agree to use wooden sticks they go with wood. if one of the two selects a padded stick, then both use padded sticks. Personally...I don't think I need to be shot in the head with a bullet, to get the idea that the bullet hurts. I think I can figure that out. The same with sticks.

How can someone do a disarm under that rapid fire? How can they do a takedown? Let not your heart be troubled. The diminished fighter theory! Whack em' in the head and it slows him down. (That is why the disarms are in level 5 and the takedowns are levels 6, 7, 8, predicated on the progression of the diminished fighter theory)

"Higher unconsciousness through pain."...or... well...how does that line go?

Hock

[Milldog1776]

Hi all,

It's "higher conciousness threw harder contact" 

Interesting thread. Just a tad of info. About twice a month I have one of the Dog Brothers come in and train with me and my guys. A lack of enough fencing masks has kept us from going "live stick", but soon we'll be ready.

However, my good canine friend brought something to my attention. The fear of getting hurt just passes like it does with boxing or kickboxing. Don't get me wrong...If you aren't afraid of getting hit with a stick, you're an idiot. But once you learn you aren't going to die after you get hit, and that you are still able to function...the anzxiety is not as great. From my experience, I have seen this---Dog guy puts on his gear and uses an Action Flex stick against my padded up students using a real stick in short 1-2 minute rounds---What I am seeing is that the feeling of holding a real stick and swinging it with all your might at another human is a major obstacle. Guys who will "light" you up with soft sticks freeze. Even though they know he is safe behind his mask...it's still a strange place to go in your mind.

Anybody else have any experience with this concept?

[Professor]

Hi all,

It's "higher conciousness threw harder contact" 

Interesting thread. Just a tad of info. About twice a month I have one of the Dog Brothers come in and train with me and my guys. A lack of enough fencing masks has kept us from going "live stick", but soon we'll be ready.

However, my good canine friend brought something to my attention. The fear of getting hurt just passes like it does with boxing or kickboxing. Don't get me wrong...If you aren't afraid of getting hit with a stick, you're an idiot. But once you learn you aren't going to die after you get hit, and that you are still able to function...the anzxiety is not as great. From my experience, I have seen this---Dog guy puts on his gear and uses an Action Flex stick against my padded up students using a real stick in short 1-2 minute rounds---What I am seeing is that the feeling of holding a real stick and swinging it with all your might at another human is a major obstacle. Guys who will "light" you up with soft sticks freeze. Even though they know he is safe behind his mask...it's still a strange place to go in your mind.

Anybody else have any experience with this concept?

It's great experience......but, my crooked fingers and the milage are catching up.   The doctor told me last month - you have lot of mileage on your body for your age.    Stick fighting intensively for three years did some lasting damage that I was of course not aware of at the time....we weren't told - our teachers didn't know. 

Yep.   We beat the hell out of each other - we deserved it I'm sure - we learned a lot about the fire of the fight - by the piper must be paid.   Be willing to pay the price -- it's probably worth it, but I won't go down the same path again - however fun it was....

Jeff 

[Hock]

It's
..."higher conciousness threw harder contact"

Well, I actually meant-
"higher unconciousness threw harder contact." I was being sacrcastic.

While in Manila, we worked out with the University of Manila Physical Education Department, where Ernesto Presas actually taught the official P.E. class of Arnis. They stick sparred every day as we did it with them. (Ernie is a REAL professor!)

I realized then that only weak Filippino systems needed the typical "Dog Brothers" add-on stick sparring. (such as found so often in the USA) That the real ones do it all the time, anyway. The core Indo and Filipino groups yawn at the Dog Brothers. "So what's new?" They ask.

We let ourselves leave the original mainstream so far, that the Dog Brother Concept naturally evolved. If you are working in a hardcore Indo/Fili course? You don't need the Dog Brothers. You are already doing that stuff.

Loose this hardcore mainstream and suddenly all this fancy, prancy stuff looses it's hierarchy in the reality scale. Sadly, elaborate, complicated slow motion drills become more important and more studied than hardcore head-smashing. This is a critical mistake. The hard core shot SETS UP everything else.

Even when you wear a helmet, you loose some of this set-up. That is why we try the Killshot method. Reward the headshot and other key shots. It is not perfect, nor is beating the snot out of each other with fanning headhots to the helmet.

It is so sad in the USA, that Filipino practitioners, after years and years and years of study, have to have a stranger instructor (Dog or otherwise) walk into their school and suddenly surprise them with stick fencing tricks? What? WHAT? What in the hell have they being doing? WHAT???!!!

The stick vs. stick dueling hierarchy:
   -Solo Command and Mastery of all stick strikes, blocks and fakes-with footwork
   -STICK SPARRING!
   -After the sparring, the enemy is wounded and dimished...
   -Then disarms, takedowns and throws against a stunned man.

So many Filipino systems in the USA has so seriously lost their way.

Now, having said all that...the real question is...when was the last time you saw two guys in the street fighting with sticks. As a practical, tactical person, I ask that question, as I teach more regular folks, police and military than esoteric art seekers. Stick versus stick is not a priority in the criminal and military scenarios we teach. More mixed weapons and unarmed versus the stick. The head shot and other critical shots are still are! But the myth of the face-off, stick duel?

This is actually the good subject of a whole other thread and should not be buried way at the bottom of this one. Forgive me if I copy it and start another subject with this.

Hock