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[Bri Thai]

Hi guys,

I've been checking the site out and noticed the relatively large size of the syllabus in this system.  Many Combative guys quote the "Hick's Law" principle, which basically states that too large a syllabus gives you too many options, therefore you won't remember anything quick enoughto use it when you need it.

They recommend a very small syllabus that has a wide application, eliminating the problem.  At this stage of my development I agree with them.  But I'm open to persuasion.   

[mleone]

Whats nice about Hocks system is you can easily apply his information to various areas. He has teaching formulas that are applicable to several different areas. I myself enjoy his system.

I always say make it your own!
No style is the end of all end. We are ultimately responsible for our own lives not a particular style.
 But Hock provides a delicious recipe of success for all to enjoy. He bridges concepts together Civilian, Police, Military and makes it applicable to those areas!

Get some of the dvds as I have and you will see and enjoy!
One thing is certain Hock is a great teacher and educator. A powerfull speaker! Clear concise and simple.

[scubapro]

Hello Bri Thai,

I have found that Hick's Law is highly overrated.  Different situations call for different responses.  As the saying goes, "if all you have is a hammer, then everything looks like a nail."  That approach will get you in trouble real quick.  Having been involved in various martial arts over much of my life, what counts is solid consistent training in as realistic an environment as possible.  Hock's approach is one of the most practical and effective you could take.  Study and practice the different techniques that make up his system of close combat, but look for the conceptual basis for them.  Once you understand the concept and structure of whatever you are doing, then when things go bad, you are not focused on a particular technique, but on either responding to the attacker's action's, or even better, preempting their attack with your appropriate action.  I believe that self-defense involves at least two components: you go home with little or no damage, and, you stay out of jail.  Hope this helps.

[Hock]

Hello Guys!
   This is Hock and I finally joined my own talk forum. How about that!
   On the subject of Hick's Law. This is a 55-year-old hunk of junk research. Plenty of new research has been deveoped blowing it away. Of course, many training courses use it for their foundation. They haven't followed the 55 years of changing development. Read my essay on the death of Hick's law on:

     http://www.hockscqc.com/articles/index.htm
     Scroll down a ways till you see:  Hicks Legacy : Reaction Time In Combat
 
   This essay has been published in law enforcement journels and received raves because it brings hope and respect to the evolution of proper training.

   On another note about syllabus length. My job is to create a college degree, if you will, in each of the hand, sick, knife and gun subject matters. Note..I did not say kindergarten or elementary. I said college.
   Then as college graduate, you strike out into the world and teach what needs to be taught to whoever needs what. Sometimes you teach kidergarten people, sometimes junior high. Sometimes College! If you don't teach? then you select the best things that work for you. Survival is very situational.
    You have to work just a bit harder with me! Sorry! There are plenty of cro-magnon courses out there to go through in a week or even less. With them-you'll be able to poke a guy in the eye! But...God help you if he blocks it.

Hock

[mleone]

I think Hicks law can be abolished with scenaro replication and the proper training formulas.

[scubapro]

Hello Hock,
This is Larry Cline.  Good response to the question.  This is in line with adrenaline dump that is supposed to deabilitate a person so that they can't effectively respond to violence.  The answer is is HARD, REALISTIC TRAINING, which is what your programs provide.  And I agree, your programs take a student from elementary school to college with no fluff or bs.     

[lakerssportsfan]

From the article:

One begins to wonder how a football game can be played, how a jazz pianist functions, or how a bicyclist can pedal himself in a New York City rush hour. How does a boxer, who sees a spilt-second opening, select a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, clinch or even step back? If he dares to throw combination punches how can he select them so quickly?

None of these are in a life and death situation or in fear of their life.  Boxing is an example of Hick's law in action as it has a relatively small number of strikes - choices combined with a great deal of training.

[Trembula]

lakerssportsfan -

I am going to disagree with you regarding boxing being an example of Hick's law. Sure it ostensibly only has four or perhaps five blows, but those blows represent HUGE conceptual categories. The beginner learns the basic blow, but the advanced practitioner of the sweet science of pugilistics will be using a number of personalized variations (and variations on those) techniques depending on his opponent and the position he is in.

One thing I really like about Hock's curriculum is the "same but different" thread of commonality thoughout the CQCG levels. We see this in primarily in the technique skill drills, but also in links between unarmed and armed techniques themselves. So when one is studying DMS, one is getting better at long gun retention; when one is training handgun quickdraws, they are getting better at knife deployment; when one is training  joint cranks, they are getting better at knife disarms; etc. Every level there is something new added, but a lot of the material is just "the same but different" so even if you believe in Hick's Law, it doesn't violate it.

Having more tools in your toolbox doesn't slow down the skilled practitioner. The mechanic at the corner garage could fix your car faster with his array of tools (numbering in the hundreds if not thousands) than you can with just a scewdriver and an adjustable wrench. Though countless repetitions and skillful observation he subconciously selects the right tool(s) for the problem.

Dan

[Kentbob]

It seems to me that Hicks's law is outdated...just from playing with my sparring sessions.  When reacting to a punch, I never find myself reacting the same way twice in a row.  I know a few dozen different counters to the basic straight punch, it seems, as do we all, I am sure.  However, it is not these counters that I usually find myself and my opponent in, it seems to be a combination of various ones.  I don't know that any of this carries any weight, because, I don't really have any "real experience" as noted in another thread.  However, I would think that if this is my experience, then most likely I am not the only one.  I tend to do my punch scenarios kind of like combat scenarios, just I don't do them at 110% full adrenalin enhanced combat speed, if that makes any sense.  Mostly they are just wild punches that some ornery jerk would throw at you, after things have reached the boiling point.   Let me know what you think.

[mleone]

Concerning levels of the brain. All fighting info is stored in the cognitive brain.
Hock does a good job of the gross motor skills wich can be recalled quicker than fine motor skills.
The reactive part of your brain does well with gross motor skills

[szorn]

I have to agree with Hock here. Ultimately it all depends on what you are offering, what you want to accomplish and how much time you have to do it in. Example: if I am teaching a basic hardcore self-defense class in a 4 hour crash course to people I will likley never see again, then yes, Hick's Law might applicable. However, if I am teaching someone over a period of time who wants or needs more options, then it may not be applicable. The key to any training is to make sure the tactics are useable under stress by those that we teach to. As mentioned, Hock's curriculum fits the bill rather well.

Steve

[Professor]

Hi guys,

I've been checking the site out and noticed the relatively large size of the syllabus in this system.  Many Combative guys quote the "Hick's Law" principle, which basically states that too large a syllabus gives you too many options, therefore you won't remember anything quick enoughto use it when you need it.

They recommend a very small syllabus that has a wide application, eliminating the problem.  At this stage of my development I agree with them.  But I'm open to persuasion.   

As a university faculty member -- and a teacher of undergraduate, masters and doctoral courses in curriculum development --  "'Hick's Law' principle" is not a recognized curriculum or teaching theory and is BS.   

"Hick's Law" (damn I hate writing that) deems people to be stupid and incapable of making decisions when they have too much information.  This idea goes against every other proven research theorum that has been published in the scientific teaching research.   I can send you a couple of my own articles if this will help.

We have grown up learning to walk, write and read.  Yet, our body automatically sift through a tremendous amount of information to make micro-decision that keep us alive and functioning everyday.   

People remember and utilize the amount of information that THEY deem appropriate to them.   There are many people on this list that have a tremendous amount of information in their brain on self-defense, yet they are very skilled an make micro-decision everyday. 

People like a "Law" that allows them to be lazy.   Oh well.    It doesn't mean that they are right.     

Hock and I have visited many times over the years about the curriculum.   If it wouldn't scare my university students and colleagues, I would use it as an example of how to create a comprehensive training program (I have informally in the past).     The curriculum in created in modules that can be digested, integrated and articulated to allow participants to grow at their own pace and to their capacity.   

The basic premise if you look at the curriculum closely is:   "Learn what you want, when you want it - continue to grow".  Stop when you deem that you have learned the information that you want."   Not a bad theoritical underpinning for a comprehensive training program.   

Yes, I'm bias.   But, I wouldn't be involved after all of these years if it was a dead and limited curriculum.


Stepping away from the podium now.....


Jeff

[Bri Thai]

Thanks everyone.  This has provided me with lots of food for thought.

And this is a great place for me.  I often ask questions and make points that challenge the very foundations upon which things are built, and I usually get abuse and hate mail for it.  Seems that many people cannot stand the thought that their arts may not be perfect and go on the offensive.

Here it seems I can ask and comment without having to put up with that bull shit, so thanks.

[Joe Hubbard]

Hey Jeff

Thanks so much for your post on the Hick’s Law controversy.  Armed with intelligence you have clearly explained and “put to bed” this fallacy that has been supplying people with all sorts of erroneous beliefs on what they can and cannot do under stress.  A few years ago at a London seminar Hock explained this very thing and it was one of the deciding factors that landed him a gig teaching London’s finest- The Metropolitan Police!  People are tired of hearing that there is nothing you can do to protect yourself under stress.  It is all our responsibilities as teachers to “push the envelope” for new ideas.  The problem with some of these dinosaurs is that they really oppose and hate change!  I feel so lucky to part of a co-operative group such as the SFC.  The exchange of ideas and the willingness to share goes beyond anything that I have been involved in before meeting Hock.  This is just a personal thank you for all the input and time that you have put into this forum.

Thanks Bro

Joe

P.S.  Hey Bri- I told you this forum was different.  Your questions are always welcome here buddy.  The good, the bad and the ugly!

[Professor]

Hey Jeff

The problem with some of these dinosaurs is that they really oppose and hate change! 

thus extinction......

             live by adapting.....

and Darwin's little helper will have less to do...