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Author Topic: What Carbine do you recommend???  (Read 24399 times)

traderneil

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What Carbine do you recommend???
« on: January 20, 2006, 02:27:03 PM »

Hi agan from Las Vegas I am interested in buying a Carbine for shooting and training. I have a mini 14 Ranch Rifle that is new and never been fired,but I want a rifile that I will Like and use both for training and Self Defense not for hunting.

My local gun dealer suggests H&K models in 308 but I find that the AR15 look more appealing. But which is more fun to shoot???  Any suggestions are welcome
Thanks    traderneil Las Vegas
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2006, 02:42:59 PM »

Hi agan from Las Vegas I am interested in buying a Carbine for shooting and training. I have a mini 14 Ranch Rifle that is new and never been fired,but I want a rifile that I will Like and use both for training and Self Defense not for hunting.

My local gun dealer suggests H&K models in 308 but I find that the AR15 look more appealing. But which is more fun to shoot???  Any suggestions are welcome
Thanks    traderneil Las Vegas

My vote is the AR-15.    There are lot's of options for training with the rifle.
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2006, 03:28:09 PM »

After years of looking for the perfect self defense/ riot/ fun rifle, I found it in the AR-15. I had mini-14,fn-fal,ak-47,sks, but none can do what the ar-15 can do in both speed and accuracy. I found the fn-fal the funnest to shoot due to its hugh boom and sharp recoil. I found the fal to recoil heavy. The mini losses its accuracy after a few shots. the ak and sks kick just slightly to much for fast followup shot and the accuracy is not very good. The ergonoics of the ar are incredible. Accuracy is excellent. Recoil is non existant. Reliability with the better rifles (bushmaster,colt,dpms) is excellent. Accessories are everywhere as are replacement parts. Mags are cheap too. A great little combat package.
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CClifton

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2006, 12:06:39 AM »

In the post that marks my return to the forums here.........

I say AR-15.  The 5.56 cartridges is a proven manstopper, doesnt have large amounts of recoil, and is readily available.  The AR itself is highly customizable, has a large number of replacement parts available, and is the most often seen platform used at firearm training courses
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2006, 12:53:15 PM »

  Don't they make the M-14 in a carbine model?

Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2006, 07:21:54 PM »

M-14???? To heavy, way to much recoil for fast followups or multiple engagments. Good side super reliable,accurate, and stopping power. Still give me my ar-15.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2006, 10:27:22 PM »

M-14???? To heavy, way to much recoil for fast followups or multiple engagments. Good side super reliable,accurate, and stopping power. Still give me my ar-15.
  You think so?  I have never really tried any sort of close quarters marskmanship with it, however, I'm pretty sure those things you listed are probably minor.  Just pretty sure, mind you.

Kent
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2006, 12:59:01 AM »

The Rugers are pretty decent carbines with factory mags.
Not the best sights or trigger but certainly quite functional for combative accuracy out to a couple hundred yards.
Why not throw the bucks you'd put into a new rifle into some ammo and training with what you've got?

I've seen people running SKSs and WW I Mausers outshoot guys with guns that look like the centerfolds of the gear queer journals.

It's the nut behind the bolt that gets results.

Chuck
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2006, 11:09:54 AM »

Chuck, I too have seen those types.

Quote
I've seen people running SKSs and WW I Mausers outshoot guys with guns that look like the centerfolds of the gear queer journals.

I have yet to see a guy with an SKS be competitive in any rifle match. Can a skilled operator with an SKS defeat an opponent with less skill but better weapons.......sure. However take two men with equal skills and usually the one with the better weapon wins. In some extreme circumstances the guy with less expierience but better weapons can win also.

Kentbob,

 
Quote
You think so?  I have never really tried any sort of close quarters marskmanship with it, however, I'm pretty sure those things you listed are probably minor.  Just pretty sure, mind you.

Meet me at the range on threegun day and I will prove it to you. Listen you can do an adequate job of most combat situations including CQB with the M-14 however the AR-15 does it faster and with less weight and more ammo per soldier/operator. It sounds minor and in most circumstances it probably is minor. Imagine though facing a riot situation (the most likely scenario that armed civilians will face), you have several armed rioters to eliminate. The extra couple of second you take re finding the next badguy to engage (because recoil pulled you off target) might be enough for the rioters to get you or escape to figure out how to get you the next time after all you killed thier buddy so now it personal. My AR-15 allows me to engage the next badguy faster than any other battle rifle out there.....and I have tried most. The AR is not the end all save all rifle it does give you the best chance to survive an armed confrontation though.
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2006, 08:43:04 PM »

Drifting back on topic for just an instant: if you're determined to buy a new carbine then the AR would also be my leading choice.

Now,
Can a skilled operator with an SKS defeat an opponent with less skill but better weapons.......sure. However take two men with equal skills and usually the one with the better weapon wins.

I don't disagree. Some weapons are easier to run well than others. I carry a Glock because I personally find it easier to shoot well than popular double-action guns from Sig and H&K. YMMV

But...
The equal skills thing....

I fear that there are far more gun and gear collecters than there are serious students of weaponcraft.
Our consumer-oriented quick-fix culture influences this.

Buying stuff is easy (and strongly encouraged by the merchants).
Building skill is not easy, and for the most part the hundreds or thousands of hours of focused practice required don't profit anyone but the student.
Where's the bucks in that?
Now, that new titanium six-rail forend with the integral GPS enabled latte' maker....

I've had the opportunity to work with thousands of students. Within reason, the weapon is seldom the critical limiting factor in building skill.

 
If you already have a functional firearm, i.e. the Ruger, why not do some training, see what other shooters are running and how they perform, and then decide what you need to upgrade?
I counsel students that is better to be a skilled fighter with adequate tools than a lousy shooter with state of the art tools.

You can always take better weapons from your slain opponents.;D

Chuck
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2006, 12:56:39 PM »

  Meet me at the range on threegun day and I will prove it to you. Listen you can do an adequate job of most combat situations including CQB with the M-14 however the AR-15 does it faster and with less weight and more ammo per soldier/operator. It sounds minor and in most circumstances it probably is minor. Imagine though facing a riot situation (the most likely scenario that armed civilians will face), you have several armed rioters to eliminate. The extra couple of second you take re finding the next badguy to engage (because recoil pulled you off target) might be enough for the rioters to get you or escape to figure out how to get you the next time after all you killed thier buddy so now it personal. My AR-15 allows me to engage the next badguy faster than any other battle rifle out there.....and I have tried most. The AR is not the end all save all rifle it does give you the best chance to survive an armed confrontation though.
  I don't know anything about threegun shooting.  However, I do know a little bit about CQB or MOUT, whichever you prefer.  And I know that it is not difficult to execut the required movements, at least.  However, since I have never actually shot an M-14 in a room with multiple bad guys, I cannot comment on the simplicity or difficulty of staying on target, or transitioning to the next one.  I will, however, throw out that moving from one weapon to another is not that difficult, as the basics are still the same, and basics are what get you through a fight.  The AR-15 is faster, and has less recoil, which is certainly one of the reasons for using it in the military.  I submit to you that the faster action and less recoil will not make that much of a difference in a riot or similar such situation.  I can't remember which one, but either MSG. Randy Shughart, or MSG. Gary Gordon carried an M-14, and put it to good use in Mogadishu.  That he didn't make it out alive has very little to do with the weapon, IMO, and everything to do with being heavily outnumbered.  He did take a great many people with him, and he was someone who knew that he would most likely be in a MOUT situation probably 9 times out of 10.  Now that we have beat the M-14 to death, I am curious if they make a carbine version of the AR-10?  I am determined to by a 7.62 rifle because I want that knockdown power at my disposal. 
  I have shot an M-14 in a training environment, in MOUT, and I do not recall having much of a problem, other than the length of the stock.  I would think with the carbine version, this would be elminated.  I understand the scenario involving the several rioters, but I am willing to bet that they are going to be closely packed together, and will start slowing down once you engage one of them.  I don't know much about riot training, but I feel fairly confident that in a crowd, shooting the lead man is going to give the rest of them pause, from the blood and gore, from the simple violence, and from the noise and explosion that have just happened.  I wish I knew a little more, but I don't.  However, I do know that if you start shooting human beings, they are not going to ignore there wounds, and just keep coming, like zombies. 
  You can always take better weapons from your slain opponents
  Right on!  And it should be made perfectly legal, as well!!
Kent
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2006, 03:11:41 PM »

Kent,

Agree with everything you said.  Another consideration (backed up by empirical evidence out of Somalia) that if said rioters happen to be on drugs the AR-15 round may not put them down...the 7.62 will.

Compare it to fighting (principles don't differ much I've found)  If I get loads of very fast multiple hits on a group of people but all it does is stings I've done nothing to slow them down or stop coming to get me.  Hit the first one with a really good shot however, that breaks his jaw, sprays his teeth in the air and drops his head on the bricks like a watermelon hitting concrete and the rest will almost always stop.

N

PS:  Chuck...amen
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2006, 04:55:13 PM »

Kent,

Agree with everything you said.  Another consideration (backed up by empirical evidence out of Somalia) that if said rioters happen to be on drugs the AR-15 round may not put them down...the 7.62 will.

Compare it to fighting (principles don't differ much I've found)  If I get loads of very fast multiple hits on a group of people but all it does is stings I've done nothing to slow them down or stop coming to get me.  Hit the first one with a really good shot however, that breaks his jaw, sprays his teeth in the air and drops his head on the bricks like a watermelon hitting concrete and the rest will almost always stop.

N

PS:  Chuck...amen


I'm one threegun side on this one  - the AR is the best platform at this point.   However, I might be convinced with with this:



I need to take one through the paces...This has promise!!!

Wow!!!

Springfield Armory SOCOM rifles are compact, powerful, close-quarter battle rifles.  But being chambered for 7.62mm NATO.  They still pack plenty of punch to reach out and make that crucial shot at a distance.  They feature 16-inch barrels (the shortest allowed for a civilian-owned rifle) made possible by a re-tuned gas system.  A proprietary, high-efficiency muzzle brake virtually eliminates muzzle rise, enabling you to stay on target for faster, more accurate follow-up shots.  The new Cluster Rail System of the SOCOM II further enhances its versatility by accommodating virtually any optic, light or other accessory designed to fit a standard picatinny rail.

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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2006, 06:08:27 PM »



I'm one threegun side on this one  - the AR is the best platform at this point.   However, I might be convinced with with this:



I need to take one through the paces...This has promise!!!

Wow!!!



  Yeah, that is my dream rifle right there.  It's like 1,700, or so, but I would like to buy one.  I guess that we will agree to disagree, but I would point you towards all of the evidence from Iraq, Afghanistan, and Mogadishu that says the 5.56 just doesn't put the bad guys down like it should. 
  Ninor, I agree with what you said.  I didn't think of it in terms of a fist fight, but you're correct, in my opinion.  If I can do the one hit knockout, and move on to the next man, I'm all for it.  Fellers, I reckon at this point it is coming down to personal preference.  Ninor and myself like stopping power, Prof and threegun like speed.  Hopefully, none of us ever has to find out that the other side was right after all.

Kent
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2006, 09:38:18 PM »

I don't think it has to be an either/or situation...why can't you have both?

N

Prof...nice find...when are you buying one?
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2006, 09:28:15 AM »

I don't think it has to be an either/or situation...why can't you have both?

N

Prof...nice find...when are you buying one?


Piggy bank is empty right now....but it's on my list....I got to finger one at a gun show last week

 -- SWEET!

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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2006, 11:59:18 AM »

Kentbob,
Quote
 I can't remember which one, but either MSG. Randy Shughart, or MSG. Gary Gordon carried an M-14, and put it to good use in Mogadishu.  That he didn't make it out alive has very little to do with the weapon, IMO, and everything to do with being heavily outnumbered.  He did take a great many people with him, and he was someone who knew that he would most likely be in a MOUT situation probably 9 times out of 10.

If they had the ar-15 system they could have killed many, many more. The reason both of those guys died was thier ammo ran out. This would take longer to do with the AR-15 system.

Stopping failures with the 223 are mostly from extended distances (300 plus meters). I have no worries about stopping power. I feel that good upper torso hits will stop even the most deranged foe although not as fast as the 308. If you remember I did give stopping power as the only advantage that the M-14 gives you.

Let me break this down for you. Kentbob armed with an AR-15 can complete any combat course faster than KB armed with the M-14. If a weight limit was put in play, Kentbob armed with the AR-15 can engage twice as many targets as the KB armed with the M-14.

Faster means more badguys killed in the same time. Faster means KB's chances of survival are better. Kentbob is at his deadliest with the AR-15.

Its simple mathmatics. The M-14 rises (from recoil) much higher than the AR-15. This translates into more time to lower and reengage. The AR never leaves the target and you remain on plain with the next target.

Quote
I submit to you that the faster action and less recoil will not make that much of a difference in a riot or similar such situation.

So you see no advantage in the faster elimination of the enemy?
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2006, 03:48:12 PM »

3gun,

I agree with a lot of what you've said but not the "most of the failures were 300 yds" bit (sorry, I'm paraphrasing).

In Somalia they were shooting guys walking outside the window of a house that they were holed up in.  The 5.56 round hit guys standing about seven feet away, who then jumped up, did their lalalalalallalalalalalla bit and ran off down the street.  (They assumed they bled out and died afterwards)

The D-boy carrying the 7.62 round would shoot them at the same time and they dropped immediately on the spot.

Empirical evidence from guys who were in the firefight in Somalia.  Not theory, not conjecture.  I heard similar stories from Legion mates of mine who were there.  (Incidentally little known fact...the Legion drew first blood in Somalia during that whole gig when they shot up a truck load of 'technicals' who tried to run a road block.  A Kiwi mate of mine at said block said he hit them multiple times and they kept running. A sniper with 7.62 ammo was hitting them once and dropping them)

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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2006, 10:41:17 PM »

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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

traderneil

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2006, 11:21:56 PM »

Hi again from Las Vegas.... Thank you all for your great information. I am still at a loss as to which model to buy....  My gun dealer with 20+ YEARS OF EXPERTISE
does not carry or sell Ruger Mini 14's because he has seen the receiver on these rifiles blow up. According to him they actually heat up and explode causing great bodily harm to the operator. He says the reason they are popular is because they are California legal, not having a pistol grip and only a 5 round magazine. I don't claim to know enough but he does seem to know his stuff,and is very well informed. (He sells a lot of guns) He suggests that I buy the Socom 2 if im buying a 308.That is the gun to buy, but a 308 might be more firepower than I need for personal defense at this time. But I do love the ergonamics of this carbine. But $1700 bucks is a lot of Bread ya know what I mean??? What I need is something that is ecomonically viaable,fun to shoot,accurate and easy to carry!!...  traderneil
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2006, 11:23:49 PM »

Hi again from Las Vegas.... Thank you all for your great information. I am still at a loss as to which model to buy....  My gun dealer with 20+ YEARS OF EXPERTISE
does not carry or sell Ruger Mini 14's because he has seen the receiver on these rifiles blow up. According to him they actually heat up and explode causing great bodily harm to the operator. He says the reason they are popular is because they are California legal, not having a pistol grip and only a 5 round magazine. I don't claim to know enough but he does seem to know his stuff,and is very well informed. (He sells a lot of guns) He suggests that I buy the Socom 2 if im buying a 308.That is the gun to buy, but a 308 might be more firepower than I need for personal defense at this time. But I do love the ergonamics of this carbine. But $1700 bucks is a lot of Bread ya know what I mean??? What I need is something that is ecomonically viaable,fun to shoot,accurate and easy to carry!!...  traderneil

Go to another gun dealer......quickly!!!!
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Slackbladder

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2006, 08:38:20 AM »

DS Arms sells a carbine variant of the FAL.  Looks mighty purdy.  I'd be buying one of those.

As a Brit, my opinion on firearms is worth less than a New Orleans whore without waterwings, but surely management of recoil is a shooter issue, not a hardware issue.  The IPSC guys have been working with ammunition that gives a hell of a wallop (like the .38 sp) and still keep their spilits low.  I've fired both the FAL and the M4 and found very little appreciable difference in recoil.  In any event, I don't want to be rushing through a firefight.  Most firefights are won by the man who does not rush, takes deliberate aim and squeezes the trigger.  The ability to squeeze off more rounds per minute doesn't translate to better performance in my view.  The trade off in calibre, and subsequently stopping power is too much to swallow to warrent buying an AR-15.
I'd stay away from all that crap people buy to hang off the rail systems, as well.  I've seen photographs of the rifle used by a former Delta guy (who was in the mogadishu raid) who rose pretty high in their training staff.  His rifle was stripped bare of everything that didn't have to be there.  Open iron sights and a surefire were the order of the day (and no vertical foregrip because of the effect it had on marksmanship past 200 yards).  This in keeping with good tactical principles.  A flat top rail with minimal guff means an open field of vision, which translates to better situational awareness.  Quite how folks see past the forest of optical, laser, fireworks, aircushion and defibrillator is beyond me.  The gun is heavy enough without all that crap dangling off the barrel.  Get rid of it.
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2006, 11:15:47 AM »

If the skinnies ran off how do we know what shot placement was like. I sniper will likely make good hits. The grunt who knows. All "other" shootings that I have reviewed show no lack of knockdown power from 300 yards and in. If you are worried about stopping power just use softpoints or balistic tip hollowpoints end of problem.
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2006, 01:44:26 PM »

My gun dealer with 20+ YEARS OF EXPERTISE
does not carry or sell Ruger Mini 14's because he has seen the receiver on these rifiles blow up. According to him they actually heat up and explode causing great bodily harm to the operator.

Dude, I'm worried that you have such a dangerous piece of junk in your possession. Contact me immediately and I will dispose of it safely. (Meaning, into my gun safe) ;D

We see a lot of minis come through our courses and in four days and 600+ rounds, the main issues we see are malfunctions caused by full-capacity aftermarket magazines.

They are one of the few Kaliforniastan approved carbines.

As a side note related to guns blowing up, please check this article on the subtle but real differences between .223 and military 5.56 mm ammo.
http://www.thegunzone.com/556v223.html

This issue could be the source of your expert gun dealer's stories. I will assume he is an ethical person and not just trying to sell you an expensive new gun.

If you plan to dispose of the Ruger, please PM me before you "give it away" to someone who tells you it's worthless. I can probably point you at someone who will give you a fair price.

Chuck
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2006, 11:46:33 PM »

  Well, buddy, I think we will have to agree to disagree.  I will again point to you the many, many complaints from the troops, who were in an urban environement, about the 5.56 lack of stopping power.  Fallujah, Afghanistan, Mogadishu, my own experiences in Ad Dulyiah, that MP unit that was posted on here that so effectively disposed of an Iraqi ambush.  The Marines, the Army, the Seals, Special Forces, probably even the Air Force has said that the 5.56 does not have enough stopping power.  Same with the 9mm. 
  I don't know what sort of combat courses you are talking about.  I don't know anything about combat courses, other than some of the stuff we have thrown together at various ranges.  What I do know, is that I would much rather march back into Ad Dulyiah with my trusty M14, carbine version, than my problematic M-4 carbine.  The
M-14 has always been less problematic, its easier to break down and clean.  It doesn't malfunction as much.  It can stand up to the abuse that us grunts like to put them through a lot better, although I would say not with a wooden stock.
  If you please, what is your background/experience?  That could make it easier for me to break this down a bit, but again, I think it comes down to personal preference.  Times in a combat course come to nothing, really.  Very few combat courses involve enemies that are actively trying to kill you.  I don't know if you have been in that sort of situation before, but it is a little disconcerting.  And odd, I might add.  The realization that there is someone you don't know who wants you dead, even though he doesn't know you, is different.  At least, I think so.  Shooting at people and the reactions that those people have are wildly different from any combat course, even with simulated ammo.  You may realize this, but unless you have been in the situation, I am of the opinion that true comprehension has eluded you.  Again, I'm not no great combat master, or battle hardened veteran.  I've been shot at a few times, and shot at a few folks.  I believe in being prepared for the absolute worst thing, and part of that is a rifle who doesn't put the bad guys down like you want it too.  Like I said, you are referring to a combat course, I am referring to a two-way live fire.  One shot, one kill.  M14 delivers, M-16 does deliver, but not with the same success rate.  And that is my bottom line.

Kent
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2006, 05:52:09 AM »

  Well, buddy, I think we will have to agree to disagree.  I will again point to you the many, many complaints from the troops, who were in an urban environement, about the 5.56 lack of stopping power.  Fallujah, Afghanistan, Mogadishu, my own experiences in Ad Dulyiah, that MP unit that was posted on here that so effectively disposed of an Iraqi ambush.  The Marines, the Army, the Seals, Special Forces, probably even the Air Force has said that the 5.56 does not have enough stopping power.  Same with the 9mm. 
  I don't know what sort of combat courses you are talking about.  I don't know anything about combat courses, other than some of the stuff we have thrown together at various ranges.  What I do know, is that I would much rather march back into Ad Dulyiah with my trusty M14, carbine version, than my problematic M-4 carbine.  The
M-14 has always been less problematic, its easier to break down and clean.  It doesn't malfunction as much.  It can stand up to the abuse that us grunts like to put them through a lot better, although I would say not with a wooden stock.
  If you please, what is your background/experience?  That could make it easier for me to break this down a bit, but again, I think it comes down to personal preference.  Times in a combat course come to nothing, really.  Very few combat courses involve enemies that are actively trying to kill you.  I don't know if you have been in that sort of situation before, but it is a little disconcerting.  And odd, I might add.  The realization that there is someone you don't know who wants you dead, even though he doesn't know you, is different.  At least, I think so.  Shooting at people and the reactions that those people have are wildly different from any combat course, even with simulated ammo.  You may realize this, but unless you have been in the situation, I am of the opinion that true comprehension has eluded you.  Again, I'm not no great combat master, or battle hardened veteran.  I've been shot at a few times, and shot at a few folks.  I believe in being prepared for the absolute worst thing, and part of that is a rifle who doesn't put the bad guys down like you want it too.  Like I said, you are referring to a combat course, I am referring to a two-way live fire.  One shot, one kill.  M14 delivers, M-16 does deliver, but not with the same success rate.  And that is my bottom line.

Kent

Well stated Kent!   
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2006, 06:08:00 AM »

Kentbob, Sorry to here your choice but you can only lead a horse to water. My expierience includes decades of hunting, dozens of combat matches, and many shootout reviews over the years. The 5.56mm causes shallow but viciously severe wounds. When I say shallow, I don't mean to shallow to hit vitals. At the ranges I expect to defend myself at, it is more than adequate. From point blank range like you described in samalia it is devastating. With hollow or soft points even worst. You have chosen the larger caliber and thats okay however you are sacrificing speed and more ammo for a problem that you will never expierience in even the worst civilian use of the battle rifle.

From my expierience I can tell you that I personally can engage more targets faster. I can carry more ammunition also. My weapon system is lighter allowing for faster swings in CQB. I have used both and seen both calibers used but have yet to see a man armed with a 308 finish anywhere close to the top of any action type match.

If I knew that I would only face a couple of adversaries and the reduced volume of ammo I had was sufficient then I would go with the bigger rifle. In my personal scenario evaluation the riot situation is my biggest concern as we have had a few in the Tampa/St Pete area in the past. I simply cannot find a weapon system that can do what the AR-15 can do and in the short time it can do it.

I will make you a guarentee Kent. I will shoot any rifle course in 1/3 less time or faster with my AR than you with a 308, scoped or not. Not because of superior skill mind you but because of recoil,capacity, and weight. If you don't find that a huge advantage in winning a gunfight we do disagree.
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2006, 07:11:34 AM »

Kentbob, Sorry to here your choice but you can only lead a horse to water. My expierience includes decades of hunting, dozens of combat matches, and many shootout reviews over the years. The 5.56mm causes shallow but viciously severe wounds. When I say shallow, I don't mean to shallow to hit vitals. At the ranges I expect to defend myself at, it is more than adequate. From point blank range like you described in samalia it is devastating. With hollow or soft points even worst. You have chosen the larger caliber and thats okay however you are sacrificing speed and more ammo for a problem that you will never expierience in even the worst civilian use of the battle rifle.

From my expierience I can tell you that I personally can engage more targets faster. I can carry more ammunition also. My weapon system is lighter allowing for faster swings in CQB. I have used both and seen both calibers used but have yet to see a man armed with a 308 finish anywhere close to the top of any action type match.

If I knew that I would only face a couple of adversaries and the reduced volume of ammo I had was sufficient then I would go with the bigger rifle. In my personal scenario evaluation the riot situation is my biggest concern as we have had a few in the Tampa/St Pete area in the past. I simply cannot find a weapon system that can do what the AR-15 can do and in the short time it can do it.

I will make you a guarentee Kent. I will shoot any rifle course in 1/3 less time or faster with my AR than you with a 308, scoped or not. Not because of superior skill mind you but because of recoil,capacity, and weight. If you don't find that a huge advantage in winning a gunfight we do disagree.

Threegun,

Don't be blinded with A gun.    It's a tool.    Consider that application.   There's some great experience noted in the thread.

The AR does have knock down problems.   I'm waiting for a great platform for the .308 to replace to .223.    The SOCOM model offers a lot of promise -- that I hope takes the best of the AR platform with a better caliber.

I like that AR, but it's a tool....I'm looking for better.

Prof
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2006, 11:42:10 AM »

Professor, In the text that we are talking about using the weapon ie civilian defense, I have taken everything into consideration. There are pluses and minuses for both systems in this debate. What I am saying is that overall at this particular time, the AR-15 in 223 is superior to anything else in 308. I stated many times that the m-14 is a fine system however the only advantage it offers is in stopping power. Since none of us are likely to go to war with our civilian battle rifle the needs are slighty different for us. We don't need to engage the enemy out to 500 meters and get an instant stop. Still the 223 will penetrate a kevlar helmet at 800 meters so even at 500 it is still going to cause fatal injury. Now what does the AR-15 shine at? Speed, speed and more speed. Every bullet weights half as much as the 7.62 allowing me to carry more death with me. In an evironment void of team members (being solo) having more ammo is a huge deal. Since there are no team members to help you eliminate the ten badguys rushing you, speed is a huge deal. That is how I have come to the conclusion that for CQB and urban self defense the AR-15 in 223 is superior.

If I wanted a sniper rifle the M-14. If I wanted a rifle for hunting the M-14. If I want to shoot action rifle and come in close to the bottom the M-14. Yes if I want to engage cott addicted walking zombies (aka skinnies) the M-14. But for the things likely to cause my rifle to speak, riots, home invasion, survival, CQB courses used in action rifle, ect the AR-15 is better.

BTW, I am thinking about the armalite ar-15 in .243 win. caliber. Trying to find someone who has one for recoil testing. If it doesn't kick much more than the 223, I might have the solution to the only potential weakness the AR has. If not the 223 in soft points, hollowpoints, or balistic tips will stop much better than ball. Not that I don't have confidence in the 223's abilities however anything that can make me even better is always desired.

P.S. I am also always looking to get better. It's just that my ar's, Glocks, and remington 1100's are pretty hard to beat.
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cgonzales

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2006, 03:08:41 PM »

hey professor next time your in austin I'll take you to the range and you can give the socom and a few other versions of  the M-14/M-1A a try to see which one you like best.
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