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Author Topic: What Carbine do you recommend???  (Read 20455 times)

traderneil

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2006, 04:43:29 PM »

OK everybody, the consensus seems to be for the AR15 rifile!

Now the next question for those of you who have been shooting for a while is
Which model, and which brand. I will be using it for training classes, shooting at targets,and for personal and home defense.

I won't be using it in a third world country to fight with but I would put it into service in the event of riots or looting such as those that occurrred during Hurricane Katrina†

The gun should be easy to handle,accurate, and easy to maintain...† † Any Votes???† † † † †Thanks Again for all your information† †traderneil Las Vegas 2/2/06 :-\
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2006, 05:31:44 PM »

  Threegun, agree to disagree.  Good luck with you and yours, and may neither of us ever have to test any of this in real life.
  Well stated Kent!    Thanks, Prof.


Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2006, 05:46:29 AM »

Traderneil, I would go with a Bushmaster. Either the 16 inch collapsable or the lighter 11inch (w/5inch flash suppressor for legal requirements)also collapsable. Either will stop rioters, punch paper, train students (like Kentbob) and do it faster than any other system out there. Great choice.

Kentbob, Okay we agree to disagree. I will tell you that a few guys at the threegun match occassionally shoot the AR-15 in 308. They usually beat the M-14 guys in timed courses. Might give it a whirl.I here they are nice to shoot.
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Slackbladder

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2006, 04:28:37 PM »

Quote
I will tell you that a few guys at the threegun match occassionally shoot the AR-15 in 308.
That would be the AR-10.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2006, 06:22:34 PM »

Please tell me that an Englishman who doesn't own a gun, and isn't allowed to own a gun, just corrected a man who owns three guns (at least) on matters pertaining to firearms. ;D ;D ;D ;D

N

I swear I'm going to die if it turns out to be true....
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2006, 09:10:34 PM »

Many wouldn't know what I was talking about had I said AR-10. However AR-15 in 308 describes it for even the novice.

BTW, What is an AR-10????????? an AR-15 in 308 maybe??????? Thanks for correcting me LOL.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2006, 11:16:28 PM »

Either will stop rioters, punch paper, train students (like Kentbob) and do it faster than any other system out there. Great choice.


  Had to get that in there, huh?  That's fine, I see how it is.


Kent
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2006, 11:26:41 PM »

It's actually pretty funny...

I've got a post from a guy who's been to Iraq, who's shot at and been shot at by the enemy, who brings back a report from himself and a slew of his brother's in arms that the 5.56 does NOT perform well against real live human beings.

I have another post from a guy who's shot paper targets and bambi (neither of whom are shooting back BTW) who says the round works well and it's the best weapon system going....

Hmmm, who should I listen to when deciding which weapon and calibre to get when I'm concerned with stopping real live human beings trying to shoot me????

Such a difficult decision....

N
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2006, 07:13:15 AM »

It's actually pretty funny...

I've got a post from a guy who's been to Iraq, who's shot at and been shot at by the enemy, who brings back a report from himself and a slew of his brother's in arms that the 5.56 does NOT perform well against real live human beings.

I have another post from a guy who's shot paper targets and bambi (neither of whom are shooting back BTW) who says the round works well and it's the best weapon system going....

Hmmm, who should I listen to when deciding which weapon and calibre to get when I'm concerned with stopping real live human beings trying to shoot me????

Such a difficult decision....

N


Let's instead talk of rifles and weapons in 308.    Which to choose???
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2006, 11:14:35 AM »



Let's instead talk of rifles and weapons in 308.† † Which to choose???

   Well, I'm not real familiar with all the different rifles out there.  I do know that our scouts in Afghanistan had AR-10s issued to them, so that they could have semi auto capability, to augment the bolt action of the sniper's weapons.  Other than that, I don't know a whole lot.  I just know what I want, and what I don't want.  I think I would actually like a lever action carbine, in .308, but I don't know how common those are.

Kent
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Crazyguywithasword

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2006, 08:39:23 PM »

I've been following this a little and I'm not a gun expert by any means but I read a blog by a journalist or someone that was discussing a firefight he was involved in. A wounded US officer shot a terrorist maybe 3 or 4 times at very close range with his M4, and even though he got solid hits (including splattering one of the mans testicles....his word, not mine :-\ ) the guy had enough fight left to wrestle with the officer until he was subdued and flex-cuffed....
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2006, 09:36:07 PM »

I'm sure the 308 would have done a better job splattering a testicle. On all these failure to stop reports does anyone talk of shot placement besides the "good hit" to the testicle LOL. That is not a good hit, torso is a good hit. Were did the other2 or 3 shots hit.

Ninor, I have yet to see any human as tough as a deer. That is in both resiliance and body toughness. While the deer was not shooting back (how this factors into stopping power I don't know) he died 40 yards from my shot. He was running fast when I shot yet died within 40 yards from a single hit of a .223. Now your friends might be correct however the round really messed up the lungs of this animal. In the Miami shootout a single round of 223 almost severed the arm of an fbi agent at the shoulder but your friends might be correct. So it is violent enough to nearly rip the arm off at the shoulder and liquify the lungs of a deer, however on men if fails to do any of this. All the data that I have seen or studied on this cartridge indicate that it is an okay stopper. It fails in penetration of material but on humans it works pretty good.
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #42 on: February 06, 2006, 09:37:02 PM »

Kent, I know dude but I had to do it. Get me back, I deserve it.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #43 on: February 06, 2006, 10:06:43 PM »

Kent, I know dude but I had to do it. Get me back, I deserve it.
  Since you asked for it, in such a friendly manner, here it is.

  I will always consider myself a student, but it is you who are need of a lesson here, Grasshopper.

Cheers! ;D

Kent

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Slackbladder

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #44 on: February 06, 2006, 10:49:41 PM »

Quote
All the data that I have seen or studied on this cartridge indicate that it is an okay stopper.

And what the fuck does that have to do with ANYTHING.  What data would you need to see before you reconsider the 5.56 as a suitable cartidge for warfare?  What would qualify?  You've been told by reliable sources that men who kill other men as a full-time job find the 5.56 to be lacking when compared to the 7.62 NATO cartridge.

It is popular knowledge that the modern 5.56 NATO round is designed to tumble on impact and subsequently WOUND the target.  It is also popular knowledge (on this forum at least) that wounded men are still perfectly capable of acting in a hostile manner.  A cursory glance of citations for bravery, particularly the higher decorations for valour like the Victoria Cross and the Congressional Medal of Honour, will show that wounded men have been perfectly capable of warlike actions well after recieving injuries.
Consider the CONTEXT in which the round was conceived.  NATO and the Warsaw Pact were gearing for the largest conventional war you could possibly imagine.  The Battle of Stalingrad was to be the NORM for the third world war!  Thousands upon thousands of men would converge in Berlin, Paris, London and any other major city that might lie in the path of the Soviet war machine.  Conscription would be back in a big way and armies would again swell to millions.  Very few of these soldiers want to be on the front line, very few wish to engage in pitched battle.  Everyone wants to be away from the lines and avoid mincing machine that urban warfare swiftly resembles.  In mind of this, being wounded is a damn good excuse to sit down and scream for help. to have medics arrive and carry you away.  As soon as a bullet finds flesh, its a sign that your dues are paid in full and now its someone elses turn.  With armies full of people who don't want to be there, being wounded is an "acceptable stop".

Next we have the problems posed by large numbers of men engaging enemy in an urban environment.  The "front line" is now more of a 'zone' where enemy can be above, below, behind and in front of you all the time.  To add to this, the enclosed nature of urban infrastructure and the limitations it places on up-to-the-minute-intelligence (inability to accurately track possession of territory, withdrawl by enemy and lost ground), then we add this to the clusterfuck that radio communications in urban structures and we have BIG blue-on-blue issues.  I recall an excercise held by the US military recorded for documentary purposes where a third of the total battle group were wiped out through friendly fire in one office building because of such difficulties imposed by the environment.
So, with thousands of guys in a city, all trying to kill somebody, the issue of friendly fire becomes less of a regrettable nuisance and more of a challenge of maintaining strength for battle and preserving morale.  A cartridge that punches through walls like they were made of cotton candy probably isn't the best choice if you have no idea whether or not friendly forces are on the other side of that wall.  A round that is stopped by bricks and concrete is certainly more favourable in this regard.

So now we see that "acceptable stopper" is not always the same as "acceptable killer".

The USERS of this rifle system who KILL PEOPLE with that same rifle system have been declaring that it falls short of requirements.  All the courses you have attended, all of the studies you have read and deer you have shot provide ZERO reply to that simple fact.
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2006, 06:02:13 AM »

Slackbladder, For starters, you need to watch your mouth. Secondly you act as though nobody has ever won medals after taking a hit from calibers larger than the 308.

Quote
A cursory glance of citations for bravery, particularly the higher decorations for valour like the Victoria Cross and the Congressional Medal of Honour, will show that wounded men have been perfectly capable of warlike actions well after recieving injuries.

So nobody won these prior to the 223 right slackbladder.

Thirdly, In most interviews that I have done with veterans (mostly friends) nobody really knows if they even hit the badguy. They shot badguy fell got up and ran away. None informed me that they saw the impact of the rounds. These guys were from Iraq BTW. One did say he fired and the guy fell behind a low wall. My friend told me that there was no way in heck that he was going to check to see if the guy was dead. What I have noticed is that some people have a dislike for the small round and tend to hype what they precieve as a failure that after further unbias review could have been a miss or a graze. I find it very hard to believe that a round capable of almost severing an arm or causing the damage I saw in the body cavity of a deer, would fail with good upperbody hits.

And if you go back and read my thread, I clearly say that my choice of 223 cartridge is based on my biggest threat and that is from a riot not war. This allows me to also use hollowpointed ammunition should I need even more stopping power.

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Crazyguywithasword

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2006, 07:05:27 AM »

Heres the link to that blog....

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/gates-of-fire.htm

Quote
....- after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the manís abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser.
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Crazyguywithasword

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2006, 07:16:24 AM »

Another incident from same post

Quote
Chris Espindola also shot the man. Amazingly, despite being hit by four M4ís from multiple directions, the man still lived a few minutes
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2006, 07:33:33 AM »

Quote


Next we have the problems posed by large numbers of men engaging enemy in an urban environment.  The "front line" is now more of a 'zone' where enemy can be above, below, behind and in front of you all the time.  To add to this, the enclosed nature of urban infrastructure and the limitations it places on up-to-the-minute-intelligence (inability to accurately track possession of territory, withdrawl by enemy and lost ground), then we add this to the clusterfuck that radio communications in urban structures and we have BIG blue-on-blue issues.  I recall an excercise held by the US military recorded for documentary purposes where a third of the total battle group were wiped out through friendly fire in one office building because of such difficulties imposed by the environment.
So, with thousands of guys in a city, all trying to kill somebody, the issue of friendly fire becomes less of a regrettable nuisance and more of a challenge of maintaining strength for battle and preserving morale.  A cartridge that punches through walls like they were made of cotton candy probably isn't the best choice if you have no idea whether or not friendly forces are on the other side of that wall.  A round that is stopped by bricks and concrete is certainly more favourable in this regard.

So now we see that "acceptable stopper" is not always the same as "acceptable killer".

The USERS of this rifle system who KILL PEOPLE with that same rifle system have been declaring that it falls short of requirements.  All the courses you have attended, all of the studies you have read and deer you have shot provide ZERO reply to that simple fact.


Slackbladder, 

Excellent Post!   You brought up some good points.   

The point of the .308 (7.62) vs .223(5.56) isn't the point of bullet placement in a vicious wartime environment.   While both will stop a person, the 7.62 will put a person down and out much better than than a 5.56 -- if hit in the same part of the body.   

However, If a 3rd world army is given the choice between their 7.62 platform and the AR-15 -- they'll choose the AR-15 (5.56).   

I don't particularly like that AR-10, but it provides a weapons platform appropriate for a man-stopper round.   The M-1, FAL, etc. don't yet have they weapons systems ability to provide the necessary flexiblity to outfit a modern technological army.   

What weapons platform should be adopted?   I'm a believer in a larger round....I don't like the platform options that use it.

The SOCOM II platform has tremendous promise....others?  I'm ready for our allied armies and all "good guys" to have the best of the best to kill goblins.  What is it?





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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #49 on: February 07, 2006, 09:15:28 AM »

Below is a 100percent verifiable shootout result involving the 223.

Richard Manauzzi Injured (unspecified injuries).
Gordon McNeill Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and neck
Edmundo Mireles Seriously injured by a .223 gunshot wound to the left forearm.
Gilbert Orrantia Injured by shrapnel and debris produced by a .223 bullet near miss.
John Hanlon Seriously injured by .223 gunshot wounds to the right hand and groin.
Benjamin Grogan, 53 Killed by a .223 gunshot wound to the chest.
Gerald Dove, 30 Killed by two .223 gunshot wounds to the head.
Ron Risner Uninjured.

These are the FBI agent involved in the 1986 Miami shootout with 2 armed bank robbers. If you noticed that the only 2 agents hit in the kill zone died (unfortunately). Those hit in limbs survived. I submit that had they been hit in the limbs with the 308 the same thing would have happened. I futher submit that those hit in the kill zone would have died deader if a 308 was used.

McNeill was struck in the neck by a high-velocity .223 bullet fired by felon Michael Platt. While the bullet did not directly contact the spine, and the wound incurred was not ultimately fatal, the temporary cavitation was sufficient to render SA McNeill paralyzed for several hours.

I originally said that the 223 almost severed the arm at the shoulder, it was the forearm.....my apologies.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2006, 09:56:57 AM by threegun »
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2006, 10:07:30 AM »

In one case, a perpetrator absorbed 44 of these things (147grain 9mm subsonic loads)before being put down by a three shot burst of .223!!. 
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2006, 11:16:23 AM »

  Threegun, I fail to see how that post backs up your original statement that 5.56 puts men down effectively.  According to the shot placement of your post, their really isn't much that would have killed those men in the areas that they were hit.  I don't even know if a .50 cal would kill someone if they got shot in the hand. 
  Again, with proper shot placement, the .308/7.62 outperforms the .223/5.56 9 times out of ten.  You have stated one individual who was killed with a 5.56 round to center mass.  The other was killed by a headshot.  A kill is a kill, and I agree that it is unfortunate that those killed were FBI agents. However, head shots are hard to come by in a real life combat situation, except possibly close or extreme close quarters, with more range time than the average trooper gets.  That is the reason that we are trained to shoot center mass, because it is an easier target to aim for, at least that's my understanding.  Again, the .308 will cause more damage than the .223, simply by expending most of its energy in the target, whereas the reports of 5.56 passing through the target with little or no damage are also just as numerous as its lack of stopping power. 
  In the event that a 7.62 round does pass through the target, it will make a bigger hole, and therefore more damage, and therefore a better likelihood of, if not killing the target instantly, at least taking him out of comission. 
  All of this has not even taken into account the possibility of the bad guys OR rioters being on drugs or alcohol.  In Mogadishu, as Ninor mentioned, the locals use Kat, which while I am not completely up on all of its effects, I know that it does get the user high, similar to caffeine, I believe.  In the middle east, some folks smoke hashish.  There are a lot of opium poppies floating around, and while I don't know for sure that any of the bad guys have been on heroin or morphine, the possibility is to likely to ignore.  And if that were'nt enough, I have recieved reports of the bad guys shooting themselves full of adrenaline in order to counter the pain of a gunshot wound.  I surmise that this is because they realize that they can take a couple of our 5.56 rounds and still be able to run away to fight another day.  To hammer my point home, if we shot them with 7.62 the chances of them walking away, adrenaline, heroin, morphine or otherwise, would be greatly reduced.  At least, in my professional opinion. 
  I urge you to consider this, especially as I believe you said that you live in or around Miami, and drugs that give the ability to ignore pain like that are always plentiful in larger cities.  So, I would have to say that the chances of your rioters being on drugs are pretty good.
  I also wish to point out that I am agreement with you on two things.  One, slackbladder does not need to be using that sort of language on this forum.  Two, a deer is tough.  Tougher than a person, I don't know.  However, I will again point out that while a deer is dangerous, it is not nearly as dangerous as a wounded person who still has a semi or fully automatic weapon and the ability to use it.  Deer, as far as I know, operate more on instinct.  People are self-aware, and able to plan a course of action.  And me, if I get wounded, I know that I am going to choose a plan that is most likely to bring harm to my attacker. 
  So, there you go.  That is what I have to say regarding your latest posts.  Game on!

Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2006, 05:01:23 PM »

Kentbob, I'm not sitting here trying to tell you that the 5.56 is as good or better than the 308. All that I'm saying is that the 5.56 is effective enough. I posted the miami shootout because the only man to take a center mass hit died. Dead is dead. Reports from the field are almost always preception. Or someone says it took 3 shots to put him down. What they don't say is that the first two shots hit hands or just grazed the badguy. Like my friend and iraq veteran said, he shot a guy and the guy fell dead. I said were did you hit him. He said I don't know I wasn't going to check. Is that shooting a plus for the 223? I don't know. What I do know,can prove,and have seen, the 223 is a good stopper inside 300yards. What it did to that deer couldn't be absorbed by the human body and live, I promise you that.
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Slackbladder

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2006, 02:52:50 AM »

1) Apologies for the language.† I'll not offer excuses.

2)
Quote
Secondly you act as though nobody has ever won medals after taking a hit from calibers larger than the 308...So nobody won these prior to the 223 right slackbladder.

Perhaps I wasn't emphatic enough, in which case I apologise (again).† Here it is, distilled afresh for thee:
Wounded men are still capable of fighting.† Therefore, a cartridge designed to wound probably isn't your best bet for dropping an aggressive, determined foe.

Quote
I find it very hard to believe that a round capable of almost severing an arm or causing the damage I saw in the body cavity of a deer, would fail with good upperbody hits.
Quote
What it did to that deer couldn't be absorbed by the human body and live, I promise you that.

If I play pool with my eyes closed, strike the cue ball, have it roll around the table, knock a ball into a pocket, am I good at pool?† The effects of identical ammunition on a living organism vary with enormous degree.† Every shot is a lottery as to the effect it may/may not have on the target.† To increase my chances of winning the lottery, I can buy more tickets.† With ammunition, you increase the calibre.

Quote
This allows me to also use hollowpointed ammunition should I need even more stopping power.

Sorry, dude, but hollowpoint ammunition is wasted money unless you plan on shooting naked people.† Clothing tends to wad in the cavity, reducing performance to something approaching standard ball.

Quote
my choice of 223 cartridge is based on my biggest threat and that is from a riot not war.

I'm genuinely curious to see how you can seperate your version of what a riot is, from what a riot can be e.g. BHD-Mogadishu (angry, drugged, armed people can be startlingly common mix, even in a domestic riot).† Maybe rioters are just really lazy where you live. :D

Quote
Below is a 100percent verifiable shootout result involving the 223...[breakdown of Miami gunfight]... I submit that had they been hit in the limbs with the 308 the same thing would have happened.

1) "100% verifiable" is meaningless in this regard.† You have selected ONE incident that matches your paradigm and applied it across the whole spectrum of ballistics. If I were to produce a SINGLE case of a .22 rimfire rifle causing multiple fatalities at the scene of a crime, would that make a meaningful argument for its acceptance as a combat load?† No.† I know personally of an event in which two childrens  were saved as a virtue of NOT wearing a seatbelt in the car.† Do I still buckle up?† Yeah!† I can point to several incidents of people falling thousands of feet with no parachute and are found with only minor injuries.† Do I think parachutes are an expensive waste of money, fit only for wimps?† No!† We are interested in the RESULTS of a longitudinal study, not isolated incidents.† 5.56 fails the longitudinal test.

2) Your idea of what might have happened had 7.62 been used is sorely misguided.† The effects of ammunition on a human body are wildly unpredicable.† Ballistic scientists have long been divided as to whether to test ammunition on soap, gel or cadavers.† Cadavers lost out because no replicable results could be garnered.† Scientific method took the field further into irrelevance.

Quote
In one case, a perpetrator absorbed 44 of these things (147grain 9mm subsonic loads)before being put down by a three shot burst of .223!!

Comparing pistols to rifles is like comparing confetti and kevlar.† They're wildly different things.

Professor:† Pleasure to hear from you, sir.† Ninor speaks highly of you.

Quote
However, If a 3rd world army is given the choice between their 7.62 platform and the AR-15 -- they'll choose the AR-15 (5.56).

Purely out of curiosity, can you source that remark?

I'm not surprised.† Most soldiers in 3rd world countries pluck for the method of marksmanship named "Spray and pray".† You can do more of this when you've got an extra 250 rounds wrapped around you.† Another factor may be the scarcity value of the AR-15.† As the AK47 and the FAL are the two most prevelant weapons systems in the African continent, the rarer firearm (like the AR-15) may carry status value.

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[The common 7.62 rifles] don't yet have they weapons systems ability to provide the necessary flexiblity to outfit a modern technological army.

Are you referring to the rail system?† Should be an easy fix.† I've seen some excellent FALs from DS Arms that could be tricked out if your tastes run that way. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.† :D)
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2006, 02:55:37 PM »

Slackbladder, When I responded by saying that medals have been rewarded before the 223, it was to prove that men can still fight with calibers 308 and larger.

Again I don't want to slide into comparing the 308 to the 223. The 308 is a vasty superior cartridge in terms of stopping power. However to discount the 223 as unable to stop is simply not supported by the PROVABLE FACTS. If you can provide some concrete evidence to prove that it lacks stopping power, I will concede. I don't consider soldier testimony as factual since those that I have talked to couldn't determine if they had hit or missed as the badguy ran off.

In every shooting that I have seen, the 223 worked. In all the heresay I have heard it didn't. I will stay with what my eyes have seen in that deer and the other shootout information that can be varified.

 
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With ammunition, you increase the calibre.

The question here is , does the stopping power difference make up for twice as much ammo. Does it make up for the speed of target engagment? I don't think it does.
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traderneil

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2006, 03:25:36 PM »

Hi again from Las Vegas, and thanks for all your imput .All of you seem to have a lot of working knowledge and hands on experience in using Carbines.

I have come across two suggestions that I would welcome your opions on

1) Armalite M15 A4 carbine† ($1100-1400)

2)Bushmaster XM15 E2s A2† †($950)

Do any of you have experience with either of these rifiles. Do you think either of these would be good choices. If you had to shoot them inside your house for self defense would you?† Would these be good to use on the range,and for carbine training classes.† All thoughts welcome......Tks Neil in Las Vegas
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2006, 04:39:42 PM »

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Do any of you have experience with either of these rifiles. Do you think either of these would be good choices. If you had to shoot them inside your house for self defense would you?  Would these be good to use on the range,and for carbine training classes.  All thoughts welcome......Tks Neil in Las Vegas

Bushmaster's are great.  own 2 of them, 3 if you count the pistol. Inside the house only with selected ammo (40gr blitz or magsafes) and AND only if I used angles to guarentee my families safety from shoot throughs. Perfect training weapons and range rifles, fun to shoot, reliable, ect.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #57 on: February 08, 2006, 05:01:43 PM »

  I certainly agree that the ar-15 is an excellent weapon to train on, especially for newbies.  Because if the low amount of recoil, students can learn the fundamentals of marksmanship and close quarters marksmanship much, much easier than if they were to use, say, an M-1 or M-14. 
  However, us professionals, for our professional jobs like the M-14 for the real and the nasty.


Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #58 on: February 08, 2006, 06:28:48 PM »

Kent, What are you a proffessional at?
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #59 on: February 08, 2006, 07:52:46 PM »

  Soldiering.


Kent
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