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Author Topic: What Carbine do you recommend???  (Read 23776 times)

Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #60 on: February 08, 2006, 08:34:11 PM »

Threegun,

KentBob has just returned from active service in Iraq on the pointy end.  He's currently at Fort Benning (no OPSEC violated here, it's in his other posts).

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Professor:  Pleasure to hear from you, sir.  Ninor speaks highly of you.

Slack...Aw don't tell him...he'll get a big swolled head :)

N
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2006, 10:04:48 PM »

One problem with the 5.56 is that since the early 1980s it has been using heavier ammo known as M855. It has a tungston penetrator designed for better penetration. M855 ammo travels at a lower velocity and does not fragment the way the older M193 ammo did. 

The older M193 ammo is still available and is what caused the damage to the FBI agents in the Miami shootout.

The newer M855 ammo is what was used in somalia that was reported to have gone through people with little effect.

Here is everything in the world you need to know about the 5.56mm -
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm#ss109m855
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #62 on: February 09, 2006, 05:45:08 AM »

Now I understand why the reports are conflicting. The use of heavier bullets combined with the shorter barrels of the M-4 reduce the chances of getting the terminal tumble and fragmentation that the 5.56 needs to be effective.

Quote
From Dr. Roberts:

"Combat operations the past few months have again highlighted terminal performance deficiencies with 5.56x45mm 62 gr. M855 FMJ.  These problems have primarily been manifested as inadequate incapacitation of enemy forces despite their being hit multiple times by M855 bullets.  These failures appear to be associated with the bullets exiting the body of the enemy soldier without yawing or fragmenting.  This failure to yaw and fragment can be caused by reduced impact velocities as when fired from short barrel weapons or when the range increases.  It can also occur when the bullets pass through only minimal tissue, such as a limb or the chest of a thin, malnourished individual, as the bullet may exit the body before it has a chance to yaw and fragment.  In addition, bullets of the SS109/M855 type are manufactured by many countries in numerous production plants.  Although all SS109/M855 types must be 62 gr. FMJ bullets constructed with a steel penetrator in the nose, the composition, thickness, and relative weights of the jackets, penetrators, and cores are quite variable, as are the types and position of the cannelures.  Because of the significant differences in construction between bullets within the SS109/M855 category, terminal performance is quite variable—with differences noted in yaw, fragmentation, and penetration depths.  Luke Haag’s papers in the AFTE Journal (33(1):11-28, Winter 2001) describe this problem."

So this is why my 55grain projectiles performed so well yet reports about the 5.56 recently came in as poor. I new that the 5.56 was capable. Just use 55 grainers. That is all I own from fmj to ballistic tips for the sniper rifle.

Kentbob, Is that what you guys are useing....the 308? If not when you go back get you some 55 grainers....problem solved.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #63 on: February 09, 2006, 08:19:49 AM »

  No, unfortunately we only have one M-14 per company.   :(  Unlike when I went to Afghanistan, and we had two per squad.   :D  And, since we may have the need to engage targets other than people, I would prefer to stick with the M-14, again.  Sometimes cars have to be shot.  Which, we do have machine guns, and a .50 caliber sniper rifle, but we did not always have these things with us.  My belief is that the M-14 gives us the firepower we need in order to successfully engage all manner of targets at all manner of ranges.

Kent
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #64 on: February 09, 2006, 12:48:37 PM »

Now I understand why the reports are conflicting. The use of heavier bullets combined with the shorter barrels of the M-4 reduce the chances of getting the terminal tumble and fragmentation that the 5.56 needs to be effective.

So this is why my 55grain projectiles performed so well yet reports about the 5.56 recently came in as poor. I new that the 5.56 was capable. Just use 55 grainers. That is all I own from fmj to ballistic tips for the sniper rifle.

A big bingo on that!
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2006, 05:44:21 AM »

Kent, You know what you need for war. I won't need to stop heavily armed people in a car who want me dead,except in the wildest of scenarios. For my situation the need more likely will be greater for needing twice the ammo and faster engagement times. Remember you are at war, I'm not. The rioters I might have to face are to lazy to get out of the ghetto so I don't feel that their determination will be hard to stop. The main thing that I feel justifies the 5.56 is how fast I can eliminate multiple targets. It would take 2 m-14 operators to put as many kill shots on as many targets with or without optcis. I understand your need to stop vehicles plus the heavier ammo being issued you reducing the 5.56's effectiveness. You definitely need the 308.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2006, 03:51:48 PM »

  I understand your opinion, but I believe that I would be the one to come out on top in a real live riot with an M-14.  But, as I said before, good luck in your training, and may the Lord ensure that neither one of us ever has to test our theories.

Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #67 on: February 10, 2006, 06:05:36 PM »

Kent,

 
Quote
I understand your opinion, but I believe that I would be the one to come out on top in a real live riot with an M-14.

Ha Ha, Maybe if all the rioters are driving.

 I guarentee you that there is no way possible that you can out speed me with that rifle (recoil won't allow it). Even if you are a better operator, I am also great behind the wheel and have yet to have a 308 out speed me in many competitions. When we step into the fire during the riot I will be capable of killing twice as many rioters without a resupply. Stopping power using my 55grain softpoints will not be a concern although nowhere near the 308 . Penetration is the major drawback for my choice, however all riot footage that I have ever viewed, proved that penetration will not be a primary issue.

I think that both of us would be successful during a riot. You will kill them really dead and I will kill them really fast.

We both agree that hopefully it will never happen. For the sake of the poor bastard rioters that force us to call down the thunder that is.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #68 on: February 10, 2006, 07:56:14 PM »


 For the sake of the poor bastard rioters that force us to call down the thunder that is.
  That's right!  "You called down the thunder, well now you got it!"


Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #69 on: February 11, 2006, 05:44:45 AM »

My favorite western ever....TOMBSTONE! "whatever do you mean"
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #70 on: February 11, 2006, 01:20:04 PM »


The problem is the heavier SS109/M855 5.56 rounds dont have the penetration of the 7.62 against objects like cars. But they also dont fragment as well as the 55 grain M193 rounds. So you have the WORST of both worlds.

Threegun-you are better off with the 55 grain M193 or Q3131 type ammo that the softpoints. The ammos I mentioned have a tendency to fragment violently which the 55 grain softpoint might not.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #71 on: February 11, 2006, 02:31:20 PM »

My favorite western ever....TOMBSTONE! "whatever do you mean"
  Yep!  :D

Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #72 on: February 12, 2006, 05:12:44 AM »

Lakesportsfan, I want the violent fragmentation. The softpoints disintergrate (did in the deer I shot). No exit hole, no bulle,t no pieces (that I could fing).......just disappeared.
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traderneil

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #73 on: February 13, 2006, 02:56:09 PM »

Hi again from Las Vegas.    I  just want to send out a thank you note to both Chuck (I Recd your recs on the Bushmasters and I am adding them to my list). Also  a note to lakerssportsf: on the excellent artice on the 223 ammo what a  great link..

A last question on the Ar15 I have a catalog from Olympic Arms Inc. www.olyarms.com  which shows some beautiful looking AR's. Do any of  you have any thoughts or experiences with these guns.  Are they any good,or just so-so?

All your opinion's count!!!   Tks traderneil   Las Vegas Nv.
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2006, 05:33:19 AM »

I had one a long time ago and had problems with it. This was back before I new what I was doing and if a weapon failed I got rid of it. It could have been a mag problem or something minor I just don't know. My bushies and colts have zero problems (except for that pistol problem I told you about).
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2006, 01:14:03 PM »

Kent,

 
Quote
I understand your opinion, but I believe that I would be the one to come out on top in a real live riot with an M-14.

Ha Ha, Maybe if all the rioters are driving.

 I guarentee you that there is no way possible that you can out speed me with that rifle (recoil won't allow it). Even if you are a better operator, I am also great behind the wheel and have yet to have a 308 out speed me in many competitions. When we step into the fire during the riot I will be capable of killing twice as many rioters without a resupply. Stopping power using my 55grain softpoints will not be a concern although nowhere near the 308 . Penetration is the major drawback for my choice, however all riot footage that I have ever viewed, proved that penetration will not be a primary issue.

I think that both of us would be successful during a riot. You will kill them really dead and I will kill them really fast.

We both agree that hopefully it will never happen. For the sake of the poor bastard rioters that force us to call down the thunder that is.

   I would like to say, for the sake of fairness, that I have never seen this ammunition in action, nor have I ever heard any combat reports.  So, I am willing to admit that you might be able to take them down faster than I can.  However, I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that a shot placement anywhere in center mass is going to make someone quit with theM-14.  I have a hard time believing that a 55 grain bullet will be able to do the work of a 180 grain, even if it is faster. 
  Also, I don't know what kind of riot training you do, but I assume that you do not just stand and face the horde a la Dawn of the Dead or something like that.  If it was me, I would be moving to either prepared, or selected positions until I have reache the limit of advance, at which point the ability to shoot faster might come in handy. 
  However, even thought I have never been in a riot situation, it is my belief that a few seconds time is not going to make a big difference in this situation.  I can't exactly explain why I believe that, but I do.  At the same time, I will take your training experiences into consideration.  I hope to get some training in this area someday, so that I can figure things out for myself.


Kent
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traderneil

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2006, 04:55:38 PM »

Hi From Vegas again:  My wife gave me a really cool dvd for valentines day.  Heat
the ultimate in carbineship. It was a great film that came out several years ago and when I played it last night I enjoyed more than ever. Since the subject of stopping cars full of bad guys was brought up in this post, there was a scene when a money pick up by Deniro was to take place in the empty parking lot of a drive in movie.When the action started Val Kilmer used what looked like an H&K 308, and started firing at the fleeing pickup truck of bad guys, but it was actually stopped by Tom Sizemore at the gate with what looked like a 12 guage with 00 buck.

 When the firing started outside the bank between LAPD And Deniros crew the weapons of choice all looked like AR15's and even though this was a movie all the guns had an excellent cycling rate,blowing the crap out of downtown LA .(Most movie productions employ real weapons that may be modified,but still can fire live loads). After reviewing this film I can see why the AR15 is so popular, its fast, light firepower that spews bullets all over the place. Everyone here should rent or buy a copy of this film for their library, and play it often it offers great reference......

I would just like to close by saying that the one thing I would not do with my carbine is to hunting with Dick Chaney ;D   -------------Traderneil Sin City
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2006, 08:50:13 PM »

Mate,

While the gun handling in that film was fairly accurate due to the input of Andy McNab it was a movie...I'd hardly be using it as a reference point as to what a shoot out is like. :)  Better to get you a copy of the North Hollywood Bank of America shootout and see why cops had to go raid gun stores to get heavy enough equipment to put those fookers down.  Took an hour and thirty something minutes if I remember.

N
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2006, 09:37:22 PM »

Kent, I don't mean that the 223 will down anyone faster than the 308. What I am saying is that I can accurately fire much faster allowing me to find and destroy targets faster. My plan for any shooting situation is to find suitable cover asap and kill as many badguys as possible. If the situation allows for mobility I will move to better cover and to a position unknown to the badguys who might have seen me shooting. You are probably right in that the need to quickly engage multiple badguys will most likely not be needed however if it is needed you got it. Plus the extra ammo makes you more deadly. The lighter weight system makes you more mobile.

Traderneil, Just a movie. 200 round mags (really 30 rounders) 223's eating up cars, just a movie. Ninor said it well. Thousands of full auto spray and pray rounds fired by the badguys......12 people wounded.....none killed.
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traderneil

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #79 on: February 17, 2006, 03:19:12 PM »

Ninor & ThreeGun both you guys are right!! I have seen the Bank Of America video and I have watched it in its entirety. First  all the bad guys were so well equipped with all types of firepower (and even grenades and claymores if I recolect). How would patrol car stand up to that firepower,the bad guys were more like a para military group. Also I thought it was strange that the helicopters above the chase could not communicate with the officers on the ground because the radio equipment was on a different frequency.

Now I really appreciate the experience level of all you shooters. You all make me think of different scenarios, but I consider the possibility of myself being in a major gunbattle on the narrow side, still I want to know how to survive in a gunfight. I recently completed a defensive shotgun course and I was amazed to find out how little I really knew about the defensive aspects of the shotgun,even though I had been shooting trap and skeet for many years. Now I know how to use a shotgun defensively and correctly...

In the past few weeks we have had some gunbattles here in Vegas between the police and homeowners. In one case the homeowner shot at the cops with an SKS rifle and fired 40-50 rounds killing one police officer, the police only had their sidearms and shotguns and were outgunned until an off duty cop arrived with his assault rifile and  saved the day for the rest of the cops.  A few days later another standoff occured but this time the cops had more firepower the bad guy was killed after the cops fired 300 rounds.
 
So I guess the best answer is to have two guns an AR15 for speed & 308 for heavy duty stopping power..  The next question is how often do you folks practice firing your guns???

Traderneil Las Vegas
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Professor

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2006, 06:25:08 PM »

hey professor next time your in austin I'll take you to the range and you can give the socom and a few other versions of  the M-14/M-1A a try to see which one you like best.

'


It's a date sexy. :-*
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #81 on: February 20, 2006, 09:39:04 PM »

  I would also like to point out that the M14 carbine is suited to all types of shooting, not just at people.  Also, threegun, you still haven't responded to the possibility that your attackers will most likely be pumped up on something, making a 55 gr bullet insufficient.  Nor have you talked about what sort of tactics you would be using in a riot situation.
  traderneil, I haven't seen the movie of which you speak, but the results are much less spectacular in real life.  Grenades do not blow up houses, 5.56 does not chew up vehicles, yada yada yada.


Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #82 on: February 21, 2006, 06:06:42 AM »

Kent, You missed it above.

Quote
My plan for any shooting situation is to find suitable cover asap and kill as many badguys as possible. If the situation allows for mobility I will move to better cover and to a position unknown to the badguys who might have seen me shooting.


Plans for an unknown are no good. Just take the situation and apply whatever tactics you know to it. As for the Hyped up badguys, lets just say that they cannot survive a chest wound from either the 55 grain or the 308. The trauma caused by the 55grainer is incredible and no drug can keep your brain supplied with oxygen when your heart, lungs, or major blood vessels are massively compromised.

The car scenario is the only one that will be tricky but it also can be done. The driver has to see somehow.
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Kentbob

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #83 on: February 21, 2006, 09:40:03 PM »

Kent, You missed it above.

Quote
My plan for any shooting situation is to find suitable cover asap and kill as many badguys as possible. If the situation allows for mobility I will move to better cover and to a position unknown to the badguys who might have seen me shooting.


  My apologies, I did indeed miss that.  I will go you one better, though.  I will break contact until I can't break contact anymore, and then mount the most effective defense I can behind the best cover.  I daresay that any obstacles I can place between me and the rioters would add to the chance of success.  I will have to study this scenario more, it has interesting written all over it.  How many rioters are we talking, anyway?


Kent
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #84 on: February 22, 2006, 05:39:02 AM »

Kent,
Quote
I daresay that any obstacles I can place between me and the rioters would add to the chance of success. 

Including distance.

I anticipate dozens however I feel that they will run like Ethiopian chickens once two or three assume room temperature. I plan on the worst case but believe them to be cowards not willing to die trying to continue. My plan is three fold (scenario permitting). First once the decision to use deadly force is made, I plan on as long range shots as possible with my colt accurized rifle. Once the proximity has narrowed to fifty yards or less my 11shot remington 1100 will go to work. My final option is to use a controlled retreat if the AR and 1100 don't fix the problem. I don't want to get to handgun distances or need it use.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #85 on: February 22, 2006, 07:25:18 AM »

this might be semantics but just when do civilians get to shoot rioters?  Even the cops don't shoot them with anything but water canon and tear gas.

The only time I've heard of civvies whacking people when the societal thread has unravelled is when there are looters and store owners shoot to protect their stuff such as in LA during the riots after the Rodney King verdict.

Just curious
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
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threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #86 on: February 22, 2006, 09:36:36 AM »

Ninor, I watched intensly as rioters looted, burned, property and even killed citizens here in the St Pete, Fl several years ago. My coworker was on the school bus during yet another riot here in Tampa. While pulling out of the school (which was cancelled due to the start of the riots) a rioter threw a brick through the window of the bus narrowly missing him and several classmates. If a riot ever spreads to my neighborhood, I will be forced to protect my property and family. If a family member is caught away from the house (work or other reasons) I might be forced to go get them. In any scenario once my life has been placed in danger its on.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #87 on: February 22, 2006, 05:32:16 PM »

Then it is as I suspected semantics.  Riots to me are a group of people, protesting something who go on an orgy of violence usually directed at vehicles, store fronts and private property etc.  Police are normally called in to keep an eye on things and, if they get out of hand, use water canon, tear gas, baton charges, horseback charges etc.  Unless we go to somewhere like heavyhanded China we usually don't see guns fired in to rioters.

Now looters...that's a different story all together. ;)

N

PS:  Next time it happens...call me, I'll come help.  I'll use my FAL and you can use your pipsqueak gun and we can compare notes ;D
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

threegun

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #88 on: February 22, 2006, 07:07:37 PM »

If you want to liquify the badguys I can bring my 300 wincherster magnum Savage bolt rifle.

As for the riots I was talking about. They started because police used a choke hold to subdue an out of control suspect. He died hours later in his cell and the black community went nuts.

The St Pete riot started after an officer was forced to shoot a car thief who lunged the car towards him. The cop was white, the now dead criminal was black enough said.

In both cases the rioters burned cars and buildings, attacked anyone they could, and stole everything in the riot zone that wasn't nailed down. In both cases police refused to go in and either stop it or help the victims caught in it.

The first riot made the biggest impression in my mind towards the need to be self reliant and of course the need to become as deadly as humanly possible in the defense of my family.
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: What Carbine do you recommend???
« Reply #89 on: February 22, 2006, 11:17:28 PM »

this might be semantics but just when do civilians get to shoot rioters?

When they are attacked by them. Imagine yourself in New Orleans during the social breakdown after the hurricane and about 12" shorter. Wouldnt you want to have a semiauto rifle that can fire a lot of shots without reloading and be fast to reload if you needed to?
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