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[Kentbob]

  I'm very interested in learning to use a Katana, and since I don't know a really good place around here, I've been trying to teach myself, using the SDMS material.  However, I'm having a problem making some of the 15 DMS angles work for me, specifically number 5, which is generally the push to the midsection.  I have thought of just making it a strike/block to the face, or possibly even to the midsection.  I'm curious, is this a good idea?  Will it be doctrinally sound?  Or, when using a katana or similar such weapon, should I just cut angle 5 out?  I'm not really planning on carrying around a katana, or even a baseball bat, for self-defense, I just like practicing and feeling like I might be able to employ one some day.  Thank you very much.

Kent

[evansbunch4]

Kentbob,

I think that sounds like a great way to approach the katana. Since I teach Tae Kwon Do there are no weapon sets except for a knife form at 1st Black. When I first learned the 12 angles of SMS and 15 angles of DMS, I demonstrated them to my students with a variety of weapons (sai, tonfa, katana, bo, and nunchaku). Since many of them want to learn weapons and I had a limited backgorund in classic martial arts weapons, the angles became a great starting point. Again, I think you have a great line of thought going with your katana training and also a good amount of the PAC and Knife material could  be adapted.

I hope this helps!

[Joe Hubbard]

Hi Kent

For the Katana use the 12 Angle Attack Assault Drill with the "Baseball Bat" grip.  It is already within Hock's programme.

Cheers bro

Joe

[Nick Hughes]

Kent,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say don't waste your time.  A katana cuts a special way. (it cuts on a pull stroke, not a push or hacking like machetes and cavalry swords).

A bunch of people turn up to cutting competitions and find out their japanese sword doesn't "work"  I had one of my black belt instructors take his with him on a hunting trip in Oz.  They cornered a big red (kangaroo, on its hind legs about seven feet tall)  He took a cut at it and bent his sword and got a cut about two inches deep.

Do some online research about live blade training specifically with katanas and you'll see what I'm talking about.  If you do a search under "Bugei" on google you should find what you're looking for.

[Hock]

The 4 clock angles (basic training)
12 Angle drill (advanced)

...done with a katana or bat (Two hands on one end) for me anyway covers much material present in the Katana.

When I was in the Philippines once a old grandmaster came and worked out with us and keep two hands on his stick through most of the day!  

I am but a punk in the true art and science of the Japanese Katana. One of the karate systems I was in for years, asked us to pick a Japanese weapon and I selected the katana. Working on it and with it (part time) for a few years, I got a handle (pardon the pun) on weilding the two-handed weapon.

The Filipino martial arts offer certain drills about two- handed stick work, yet tend to relagate them off to the side. I have seen long FMA drills with but a single double hand strike, maybe an overhand one from 12 o'clock.

When I embraced the clock approach for all strikes, it opened way more practical applications, and drills to mandate this appreciation. In stick combat, I really value the two hand grip (hands together or apart) just as important as the single hand grip. 50-50, not 90-10.

The 4 Clock angles (striking and blocking) and the 12 DMS Angles for this, not the 15 angles!

Yukon Hock
(I am in Alaska now and its 22 degrees below zero)


PS...oh yeah, you have to pull and slice the stroke, else you may have but a bounce with little penetration! It has happened!

[Professor]

Kent,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say don't waste your time.  A katana cuts a special way. (it cuts on a pull stroke, not a push or hacking like machetes and cavalry swords).

A bunch of people turn up to cutting competitions and find out their japanese sword doesn't "work"  I had one of my black belt instructors take his with him on a hunting trip in Oz.  They cornered a big red (kangaroo, on its hind legs about seven feet tall)  He took a cut at it and bent his sword and got a cut about two inches deep.

Do some online research about live blade training specifically with katanas and you'll see what I'm talking about.  If you do a search under "Bugei" on google you should find what you're looking for.

Hey.....Ninor is useful after all.     Good stuff there my friend.

[Nick Hughes]

Hey Prof...lick my sweaty nuts**k    Useful indeed.

[TAC]

A bunch of people turn up to cutting competitions and find out their japanese sword doesn't "work"  I had one of my black belt instructors take his with him on a hunting trip in Oz.  They cornered a big red (kangaroo, on its hind legs about seven feet tall)  He took a cut at it and bent his sword and got a cut about two inches deep.

Just out of curiosity, mate... was the kangaroo alive or already dead?

[Kentbob]

Kent,

I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say don't waste your time.  A katana cuts a special way. (it cuts on a pull stroke, not a push or hacking like machetes and cavalry swords).

A bunch of people turn up to cutting competitions and find out their japanese sword doesn't "work"  I had one of my black belt instructors take his with him on a hunting trip in Oz.  They cornered a big red (kangaroo, on its hind legs about seven feet tall)  He took a cut at it and bent his sword and got a cut about two inches deep.

Do some online research about live blade training specifically with katanas and you'll see what I'm talking about.  If you do a search under "Bugei" on google you should find what you're looking for.

  That is an excellent point, and one that I hadn't considered.  However, as I review my technique, I realize that I am already going for a slice, not a hack.  Then again, its hard to tell without a sword, and something to cut.  So...we will see.  Maybe someday I will find a kendo/kenjutsu school that I like, and actually be able to learn.  And who knows, maybe I will even find out that I already have a handle on things.  Stranger things have happened, even to me. 
  Would this be because the katana is lighter, as compared, to say, a bastard sword?  Curiousity, again.  As I said, I don't intend on using a katana to defend myself, but I would like to own one someday, and I would like to be able to use it.  Just for sh*ts and giggles.  Oh, I took the high box pattern, from sumbrada, that Guru Halleck showed me, and started using my two handed "sword" in place of a stick and empty hand.  So far, it seems sound, if your fighting against a two handed weapon.  Otherwise, well, you could be screwed.  But, it sure is fun!!
Kent

[Nick Hughes]

The Kangaroo was alive and kicking (cornered and wounded...very dangerous)

Kent, there are schools in GA...you do NOT want a Kendo school...it has very little relevance to a katana.  Kendo is a sport version of Iaido and - for example - awards points for a cut down on top of the head.  With a real sword a Samurai would never use that strike because the enemies helmet would wreck his blade.  That is only one example of learning a sport version (hmmmm, why does that sound familiar ) and it not transfering to the use of a real blade.

Again, I urge you to go do a search (bugei is a great starting place) and spend a few hours reading the forum etc over there for answers to your question.

I doubt very much you are slicing correctly and not hacking...it takes years to get it right and serious practitioners of the art do a thousand cuts every morning just liike a serious boxer does his five miles of roadwork.  That's before they're allowed to even attempt to cut something real.

By all means get a broadsword or cavalry sabre from Cold Steel and whack away if you want to practise some two handed stuff but the katana just doesn't work that way.

N

PS:  Not trying to be negative mate...just trying to save you a lot of time and wasted effort.

[aus-man]

the katana is definitely a weapon that takes an intimate knowledge and ninor's right that it doesn't work like other bladed weapons. The idea of the slice is to employ the razor edge of a katana, hacking or chopping motions are no good because the weight of the sword, as you know
the way you handle it also depends on the length of the handle, there are shorter and longer handled swords. I personally prefer the longer as the grip feels more secure and easier to control the sword.

In regards to the kangaroo, it would not suprise me to see someone attack one with a sword, i've seen guys tackle them unarmed, once from on foot, and once from the back of a motorbike. I saw the same crazy bastard take down an emu from his bike aswell. Its quite a sight!

[Kentbob]

The Kangaroo was alive and kicking (cornered and wounded...very dangerous)

Kent, there are schools in GA...you do NOT want a Kendo school...it has very little relevance to a katana.  Kendo is a sport version of Iaido and - for example - awards points for a cut down on top of the head.  With a real sword a Samurai would never use that strike because the enemies helmet would wreck his blade.  That is only one example of learning a sport version (hmmmm, why does that sound familiar ) and it not transfering to the use of a real blade.

Again, I urge you to go do a search (bugei is a great starting place) and spend a few hours reading the forum etc over there for answers to your question.

I doubt very much you are slicing correctly and not hacking...it takes years to get it right and serious practitioners of the art do a thousand cuts every morning just liike a serious boxer does his five miles of roadwork.  That's before they're allowed to even attempt to cut something real.

By all means get a broadsword or cavalry sabre from Cold Steel and whack away if you want to practise some two handed stuff but the katana just doesn't work that way.

N

PS:  Not trying to be negative mate...just trying to save you a lot of time and wasted effort.

  Poing taken.  I know there is one Kendo school 'round here.  There is a Kenjutsu school here in Columbus, but so far I have been unable to see anyone actually at the school...  I understand what you are saying about a broadsword over a katana, but I REALLY want to learn about Katana.  Cutting I suppose is a different story altogether.  However, I think that at least getting the basics of striking and blocking is a step in the right direction, and, like I said, if I actually find a kenjutsu school, perhaps I'll already be a step along.  We will see.  Thanks again.

Kent
 

[Nick Hughes]

Kent, if you are serious about the Katana (and it sounds like you are) the Bugei website I mentioned has forum and I'm sure if you ask guys there will tell you about the schools in your area.  You don't want Kendo - that would be like going to a paint ball club to learn what you need to do in Falujah (trying to put this in terms that will make sense to you )  You're after either Iaido or kenjutsu.

James Williams over at Bugei would be a good place to start (sounds like I'm an affiliate...I'm not...I have a lot of mates though who are very serious sword practitioners - 8th dans who spend what you'd pay for a house on a real sword - ) and Williams is fairly well regarded.  He's an ex-Navy SEAL and heavily into TMA.

N

[Kentbob]

You don't want Kendo - that would be like going to a paint ball club to learn what you need to do in Falujah (trying to put this in terms that will make sense to you )  You're after either Iaido or kenjutsu.

N

  I'm sure that any terms would make sense to me.  But, thanks for taking it easy on my poor little grunt brain.     I will check the forum out.  I looked at the page, but didn't think to look at the forum and ask a few questions.  Thanks again.

Kent

[ryukyubob]

Karl Friday a respected author and licensed instructor of the Kashima Ryu school, is a professor at Univ. of Georgia. If you travel over to Diane Skoss's website you will find his bio and links at http://www.koryubooks.com/bio.html - Don't know how close this is to Fort Benning....

As far as the number 5 strike goes I spent a couple of years studying Katori Shinto and there are a several thrusts that go towards the mid-section in the manner of the number 5 from the Congress 12 angles. As far as DMS number 5 (the push) what I saw that was similar came from Iaijustsu where the DMS #5 like motion blocked and deflected (not a force on force motion but a deflection) and then that led to a handle strike to the face, followed by a downward cut on the number 12. But I agree with Ninor that the feel on cutting is different in subtle ways. Also I was taught that the top 5 or so inches of the blade did the cutting - there exceptions (as always) as Shinto Ryu (and I'm sure other schools) does a sideways gut cut that is a pulling motion using more of the blade. Good luck in your hunt for schools, personally I enjoyed the time I spent in Shinto Ryu - you will also probably find some very good long stick training as well if its an older bujutsu like Kashima  - and it will make you appreciate how practical Hock's training methods are!