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[mebogrr]

Just wanted to get an opinon from people who may be members of the law enforcement community or others that have been in a similar situation.

I'm currently a level 2 in Hocks Knife Combatives, and during this training I experienced my first real taste of ground fighting with a blade. Logically, I understand the idea of carrying two knives in two different deployment areas so if you are unable to reach one, you may have the ability to get to the other (learned this first hand by being pinned on my right side with my training folder in my right pocket during drills).

My fear about this is, from a legal standpoint, wouldn't it be much more difficult to claim self-defense if I am carrying two knives versus one? In my state (TN), the law states that you may not carry a knife with the intent of being armed (legal minds here on the site may correct this if I am mistaken). I understand how, if in a situation where I used my knife, I could claim it was for work purposes, or something similiar, in an attempt to explain why it is being carried. I think, however, two knives is going to be much more difficult to explain as "work related".

I would think this would also have a potential impact on my standing in a jury case if I was arrested for assault and I claimed self-defence, and neither of my knives were even deployed.

Last April in Alabama I asked Hock about my thoughts, and his answer was "I would have more to worry about if I had just stabbed someone." No arguement here, but since the SFC seems to really take a look at all perspectives of self-defence, including legal ramifications, I thought it might be wise to ask for additional thoughts from others instead of continually wondering to myelf. Also, to be clear, Hock was trying to teach an entire room of guys material, and I caught him on a quick break, so I don't feel like I was blown off. He had alot of things going on all at once, so he really didn't have time to elaborate his thoughts.

Thanks for everyone's time and opinions on this. I appreciate it.

-Michael 

[mleone]

These are just some factors:

Number of blades
Name of the Knife
Name of the knife system
Mental stability at the time
Characteristics of the knife.
Length
Damage done to your opponent.
Less than lethal possibility.
Enviorment (Inside your home or on the street?)

Carrying more than one blade is an over kill principle.
For some its multiple blade deployment (being able to pull a blade from any area). For the military I can see how its used. For the civillian it means trouble.
Think about it? Will they go easy just if you have one blade? Most police will ask? "Why do you carry"?
Even worse "Why do you carry 2 knives"?  These questions gauge intention of action.

[Hock]

In Knife level 1, the intro level, there is a

HUGE

speech about the legal issues, like the names of knives you carry, the names of knife systems you work in and the laws of where you live. ALso the number of stabs and slashes, etc.

Lord knows the legal use of force is covered in level 1 of the UC, Stick and Gun courses.

I try to warn people about where they are going, how dangerous is that area and how prepared to you need to be. It may be touchy to have one knife, or two, or gosh three or more. There is a progression where the more knives the worse it seems. The entire courses are built on and around the use of force progression.

In ground fighting, it becomed apparent that two knives, one on each side of the body, is a smart spread. If I am going to a scary place, I am going to carry these two knives. If I have a gun on my right, then the knife goes on my left. Will the law look badly upon you with two knives? Sure. One knife? Yup.

That is going to be your choice. But, use one knife, or two? Three? And it all sucks. Get ready for the legal, expensive rollercoaster ride.

I wish I could repeat the huge level 1 speeches over and over again everytime I touch a knife in a seminar or do knife things from each level. I also want people to eat well, get sufficient sleep, and choose a religion or some basis for living, and be happy. All basic and fundamental things I cannot bring up in huge speeches each and every time I touch a knife in a seminar.

This is hard to convey. Often people also forget what was said on Saturday morning actually relates to some phsical training done on Sunday afternoon. Then someone asks a Saturday morning question. Or, in some cases, As Inosanto fondly says, "I guess he or she was alseep at that part of the seminar."

One knife? Two? three? The end remarks by all will be the classical,

"tried by 12 or carried by 6"

choices.

I will guarentee this, it all will suck.

Hock

 

[mebogrr]

Hock,

It would appear to me, from your reply, that you have locked onto the fact that I had asked you a question at a seminar about carrying two knives and only got a brief answer. First, allow me to reiterate again, it was a seminar. You did not have time to sit down and talk for 30 minutes about the pros and cons of knife carrying. I was not, and am not, trying to insinuate that you ducked, dodged, or ignored the question, nor am I stating that you have not or do not cover the legal ramifications of carrying a knife for combative situations. Also, I do own the first Training Mission One set, as well as the manual, and I am well aware of the legal information contained within.

I also want to be clear that I am not a detractor of your policy to carry multiple knives, and I am not a practitioner of another art who is trying to argue with you about your beliefs on multiple knives in an attempt to make you look or sound foolish (as I have witnessed other practitioners attempt to do on this forum).

What I am trying to do is glean some additional understanding about carrying two knives, particularly from those who are either A) currently or formerly in law enforcement or  B) someone who has been in a police situation while carrying two or more blades. 

I carry a knife with a blade that is under 4 inches. I do occasionally use it for professional work issues, but mainly I have it for a situation that requires a knife, such as cutting open a box, etc. I have been in very few physical altercations in my entire life (about 5 or so) and I have never deployed a weapon in a combative situation. While I have trained in various martial arts for over ten years, I simply do not possess the wealth of knowledge about this topic that many others on this board have.

One of my greatest fears is, after a purely unarmed altercation, being searched by law enforcement and having them find that I have two knives in my possession, and thusly having that fact reflect on me harshly in a court case.

That was the nature of my question. I do believe that carrying one knife would be reflected on differently in court, especially when considering the intent to go armed, versus carrying two or more blades. 

Michael

Any replies from Hock or mleone are welcome, as well as thoughts from any others.

[Hock]

Oh, I am not really trying to advocate everyone carry two knives. Or more knives.

I think that is the choice of each person and where they live and what they do. You may live somewhere, where carrying, one reasonable, medium-sized knife is quite legal. Just make it the "Plumber's Helper," not the "Delta Force Revenge."

You just have to decide for yourself.
It all will be ugly.
Hock

[mleone]

They say "Its better to have it and not need it, then need it and not have it.
You can make it into a utility blade of some kind to make it work related.

[fabbe]

Speaking of two blades...

Recently there have been a couple of murder and assault cases here in Sweden, where the attacker has used DOUBLE BLADES (i.e. one knife in each hand) instead of just one. And it actually seems to have become somewhat more popular among bad guys and psychos to use double knives nowadays.

Talk about a "worst-case scenario"... 

How would you deal with such an attack? Without the option to run or use an equalizer such as a gun or a baton - I would probably try any and/or all of the following:

* Use any kind of object that can be used as an improvised weapon and/or as a shield (including projectiles)
* Use footwork and long range eye gouges - and MOVE!
* Use long range kicks (lowline stomps and round kicks)
* Use impact disarms/percussion disarms, if possible
* At close range, try to control one of the knife arms from the outside (to avoid and/or block the other knife)
* Try to follow the Minimization of Wounds Theory: Try to only get stabbed in NON-VITAL AREAS...
* And as soon as possible - RUN LIKE HELL...

Any other suggestions...?

In the most recent case here in Sweden, a mentally ill man attacked a couple of law enforcement officers with double knives. The man was accidentally shot in the belly and died. The policeman supposedly aimed for the legs, but the bullet ricochetted on a steel gate and hit the man in the belly instead. If I remember correctly, the abdominal aorta was hit and the man bled to death.

Parts of the media - as well as some people I've talked to - thought that the policeman used way too much force in this case, since the mentally ill man was about 15 feet away (and behind a three feet high steel gate) when he charged the policemen. Not many people seem to have heard about the Tueller Drill over here - and a lot of people also seem to think that a policeman should be able to handle a knife attack without using a firearm - or even a baton! It makes me mad every time someone says a thing like that...  I usually tell them they're more than welcome to come to our school to demonstrate exactly how they would handle such a scenario - but so far no one has done that...

/F

[tlouis]

The endles debate over how it looks in court if such and such. I think Hocks advice on the subject is about as good as it gets. Its risk versus benefit. What kind of people and environment are you dealing with, what are your personal circumstances (ie.. are you handicapped, old, frail etc...) If you use lethal force, you are going to have a legal nightmare, but if the force is only used when you truly believe your life is in the balance, what is the alternative? To be killed because of fear of litigation? Being armed an willing is an individual choice and as far as I can see it there are no guarentees about anything. I normally carry a benchmade 4" folder. Easiest opening, most comforatble folder I have found. in my car I carry a 26' ASP Baton. I would not hesitate to carry 2 knives if i felt the environment called for it.They are  only going to be used in the gravest of circumstances, aren't they?

[pcc3164]

I WORK IN A STATE SUPERMAX PRISON . THE KNEW WEAPON OF CHOICE FOR OFFENDERS IS A MELTED LIGHTER SHARPENED AND RAZOR BLADES MELTED TO THE OBJECT FOR STABBING AND SLASSHING . ALL I HAVE IS A CAN OF MACE AND HANDS AND FEET

[pcc3164]

I AM SORRY,NOT MACE  WE CARRY    PEPPERSPRAY ,MACE CAN HURT THEM WE ARE TOLD

[Nick Hughes]

Fabbe,

Where in Sweden did that incident take place?

N

[Professor]

 ALL I HAVE IS A CAN OF MACE AND HANDS AND FEET

How do you put a mace in a can?   

[Nick Hughes]

Prof means this kind of mace for those unsure...



 

[fabbe]

Where in Sweden did that incident take place?

It was in a place called Lindesberg - a small town located roughly 100 miles to the south of Stockholm.

A few weeks ago there was also a double knife incident in Goa (India), where a Swedish tourist was stabbed to death by some crazy guy with two knives. His friends were also attacked, but survived with lesser injuries.

According to the local police authorities, the attacker was upset because the Swedish guy had been playing loud music on his hotel room.

/F

[Nick Hughes]

Tak Fabbe