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[Hock]

Thought I'd move this to a new topic...

people dont train athletically and rest on theory and compliant training and don't pressure test

Fighting, even gun fighting is an athletic endeavor. We've said this phrase for years. A person needs to be in shape. A person also needs to understand this pressure testing thing for what it is truly worth.

As a cop, I would first try to manhandle and control someone unrully. If this didn't work, it meant to take a step up. I'll jack the guy up with strikes. Suddenly, many times, all that wrestling and resistence and pressue was gone or almost gone. If you can't jack the guy up, diminsh him, the rodeo is on.

So, one more note on this thread, on  the pressure testing fad, this new catch phrase called "pressure testing." As I hear it a lot lately.

I wonder what all is actually being pressure tested out there? The examples I read and see are people "seeing" if something like an armbar can be forced, or a some such juxtaposed grappling position. I see these young men in desparate grappling standoffs, so strained and exasperated.

Did anyone ever try "jacking" that dude up? In the middle of their precious pressure test? I mean bash him? Really! Once, twice? three times?

Do you need to pressure test a .45 round to the head?
Stick to the kneecap?
Stick to the elbow? Neck?
Move down the use of force line....to several strong body, neck and head blows?

Suddenly you need, well...less pressure...Then try the ...pressure test? I never see these 20 year- olds stop their pressure testing and suddenly whack the guy where it really counts, a couple of good night shots. No, because you can't do that in a training environment, to your friend in weekly class. Instead, much pressure testing becomes some kind of asses-and-elbows, wrestling match. I have seen quite a few pressure testers turn out to be submission fighters or sport fighters, since they cannot REALLy strike in practice.

That is why, in reality training, there needs to be some level of acting. Else you will loose the real reality. Yeah! Acting for reality. 

The real things that work, that do diminish the opponent, that interrupt the pressure test, are things you cannot really do in weekly practice. It is a misnomer to think that this new-age , catch-phrase "pressure testing" is some new, very special and unique thing.

It catches the eye of the young and makes them feel they are finally doing the "real thing."  It actually may lead people's muscle memory AWAY from doing the real things, and best things to get the job done.

But the real thing is one step beyond that clever, marketing catch phrase.

I call it the Myth of the First Event. The mistake of thinking that every technique must be succesfully done against a fresh Bruce Lee on 3 cups of coffee.  If you disqualify all those technqiues, you will lose vital tactics. Once diminshed, many important tactics can be successful on the second, third, fourth, etc...event.

Feeling pressure? Strike! Strike again!
There's your basic, overall pressure test. A nice grounding in this muscle memory.

In other words, time to pressue test your pressure testing.

Hock

[JimH]

While I agree we need to pressure test our tools to find what will work for us in reality,I also feel it cannot be done all the time,in eevry class.

We must run scenarios and develop a skills level ,with tools that work and we must work them and rework them and then when we feel confident in making it work then pressure test.

If people pressure test all the time,when do you learn?,when do you adapt the technique?

Pressure testing all the time is like saying I Brawl,I go to a bar or pub and pick a fight to see how many people I can beat,well that is not learning,that is not adaptation that is luck in picking the right victim and having picked a lucky sequence.

If one were to pressure test everyday you would need one partner to attack you,you fight,it ends in 60 seconds or less and training for the day would be over with nothing gained but a fight under your belt.

When a SWAT team runs a scenario drill it goes slow,then they add speed as the routine is learned and done correctly,then faster and faster until at the end of the day or the end of several days it is done well enough to go live fire ,to pressure test,to make it work under the possibility of injury,it is learning refining,refining,refining and then bang you carry it out in full time,in real time and you have a usable format for use when the crap hits the fan and the show is for Real and for all the marbles,the team members life and or the life of the subject.

Murphy's law must also be introduced,the fact that unexpected things rear their head ,these things must be added to training to show the ability to adapt,change ,to be overcome.

Over 30 years ago,there were no terms for reality and pressure testing as training consisted of learning  new techniques and at the end of class you would fight and attempt to implement your new skill into the already known mix,either it worked or it didn't but you learned what did and did not work for you,you refined your skills and worked on making them work in the fight(in reality,under pressure,with aliveness).

These terms are just revisits to the past and making them seem new,because their usage in training has not been seen in a while.

[Kentbob]

  I agree with you Jim.  I think everyone would agree that, as with all things, there must be a balance.  Just as you can't focus to much on groundfighting, you can't focus to much on "pressure testing".
  I will admit that I am not completely familiar with this term, or concept.  It sounds to me like trying to see what works in a high stress situation, or a worst case scenario.  Or, more importantly, how to make something work.  I don't exactly know how you would go about doing this, other than smoking the bejeezus out of your students, and then making them go full out for sixty seconds or so, and using only, say, the roundhouse kick against an opponent who is free to do anything he wants.  That's just an idea, someone please let me know if I am on the right track. 
  That's my two cents on the whole idea.

Kent

[Hock]

We all know the old fashioned "pressure testing" because...,
MOST OF US HAVE EXPERIMENTED  IT ALREADY OUR WHOLE MARTIAL LIFE! and called it something else. Or understood, the true, reality effect of diminishing blows to reduce the opponent. 

Pressure testing today for so many, has become-

"Can I do this armbar against a person who is not cooperating?"

or...

"Can I make this takedown work?"

or...

Can I get this groundfighting tap-out against someone who is not cooperating?"

It helps to knock the snot out of someone in the process. People who cannot conceive this idea, have trouble producing reality systems.

Hock

[mleone]

I have experienced recently some one who kept resisting at the seminar.
Quite honestly one must learn the sequence of events first then test.

[Professor]

It helps to knock the snot out of someone in the process.

Hock

Come here Chief --- I got kisses and hugs for you.   

...feel the love.

[Kentbob]

Come here Chief --- I got kisses and hugs for you.   

...feel the love.

  Yeah, tough love!!

Kent

[Rawhide]

....and you only hurt the ones you love....

[Hock]

On this same note...

There was a knife course made by a "new methodologies" gang of today. The film was about fighting against the knife attacker and quickly turned into mostly wrestling with a knife. Oh, it looked hard core and very "pressure testing," but the whole thing turned into a prolonged wrestling match.

Neither person, clocked the opponent with a vital strike. Neither stuck his finger in the eye of the opponent. (this is a lethal force encounter!) Neither did ANYTHING that a real warrior would do against a knife attack. It looked like high school wrestling. This was the programs official counter-knife film? Dangerous garbage.

At some point somebody has to train the killer responses and the trainer has to act like the response kinda' worked, else the real survival steps are trained right out of the course! You are left a wrestler.The training flim was a sham. So off base from anything real.

<<<>>>

Then there was another film about stick grappling. Two huge guys grappled while holding sticks. Of course it was hard looking. Like a judo match. But sweet Jesus, Man! You are holding a stick in your hand. You want to try a takedown? You might try HITTING the guy, stunning him, lessoning the resistence and THEN try a stick takedown! Just wrestling a fully alert person with a stick will make any stick grappling near impossible! Wrestling around without striking is accepted doctrine of a system?

This pressure testing thing has developed in many, many wrong directions.
Innocent and niave people's lives are at stake.

Hock

[mleone]

Pressure testing has become an over done concept from blauer and Geoff thompson.
Its ok to do!
But it lacks the striking that Hock talks about.
Just like some joint locking systems? Its all about the joint locks of some systems.
Hock says "When do you Jack the dude up?

[kariookami]

Umm, I understand some of these complaints about the kind of pressure testing lots of folks are doing, but at my gym (and many others I'm sure) we do hit each other. We put on helmets, and pads and really go at it. For example, as my coach has said, the groundfighting part of our program (not grappling, but groundfighting), is not about wrestling with somebody, but striking. Heck, we're taking it even further with something my coach is calling the HIT (High Intensity Team) program. For the HIT we're getting Tony Blauer high gear suits for 30 minute classes of all out balls to the walls adrenal stress testing. As for the term "pressure test" itself, I think it's really used these days more so to distinguish reality based fighting programs from fighting systems whose main thrust of training involves 1 or 2 step sparring and katas. Just my 2 cents .

[mleone]

Not for nothing but a high gear suit is grossly over priced and it gives you a superman mentality. Blauer himself gets alot of police acclaim giving those suits out for free! But as the croc hunter says "Thats another show".
You have to experience pain. Its part of the process.
What happens when you come down from adrenaline? Do you have access to those joint locks that every one says you dont have access too in high stress? I beleive strongly in High Stress and Low Stress training. We can not leave things out of our arsenal.
Joint Manipulation and things related.

What do I mean by superman mentality?
I have been inside of a high gear suit personally.
It makes you more agressive because you dont feel much!
But if you feel a shot to the body. Will you will evade next time? Its obvious you need head protection. I dont use any body protection. I like my students to feel the shot. I like to feel the shot.
So pain desensitizing with a suit is not good! Evasion is a prelude to pain.
If you do not feel pain will you move? Will you want to move? Psychologically will you move?
When I did some boxing with Mccaan a while back!

His words were " I have to hit you fairly hard because if I dont you wont want to move!"

[kariookami]

That's a great point actually . Which is why the HIT team classes with the high gear suits are only a couple times a week, and only 30 minutes long. All of our other classes during the week are an hour and a half, and sans protection (beyond a mouthguard and MMA gloves). I'll bring up your point with my coach though. I don't want the classes to degenerate into two folks just trading blows because they can't feel any pain due to the suits either. Thanks.

[JimH]

When using the High gear suit or FIST suit or any other protective suit the aggressor is the one who wears it,so that the victim may attack with a viciousness not found with minimal gear.

This allows the attacker to be hit with intent and power,while the attacker can also launch punches and kicks and attacks with some padding,so the victim is struck and can be fought or taken to the ground,the victim must fight all out,that is pressure testing.

It also allows for the victim to find  and or use carried weapons,be they blade,stick or street found improvised weapons which shouild be on the floor any way while doing scenarios.
(I have a Fist suit and this allows the student to use power with hands and legs,as well as sticks,training knives,padded batons,plastic bats or clubs)

The object is to run scenarios so that the victim gets to act and strike with intent while stiill being fought and struck by the attacker.

I do not care what the attacker feels in this drill as the purpose is to get the victim to explode into an aggressive response.

To have both people in the suit fighting does nothing different than is found in Tae Kwon do or some other art or sport oriented art.

That form of training is not true pressure testing as the people involved know they will not be hurt,so that aspect of possible injury,and low level of adrenaline is removed.

To have both parties in the suits is useless.

[arnold]

Rawhide,
I do not necessarily love anybody in your class, but have been know to inadvertently "hurt" a few. How's what's his names ankle after the last seminar?
Those who were there understand