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  • May 22, 2012, 08:34:33 AM
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Author Topic: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk  (Read 1594 times)

mpbelzer

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Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« on: November 14, 2004, 03:39:13 AM »

Greetings from those Stick Guys again!

Recently in So. California we saw a surveillance video from a large mall that showed a women being chased by a guy in a parking lot.  She was picked up and placed over his shoulder (like carrying a sack of potatoes) -feet dangling in front of him and her head across his back.  The video was too grainy to see if she was being carrried on her stomach (which seems more likely) or if she was being carried on her back.  It took less than 10 seconds for her to get thrown into the trunk of a waiting car and then driven off.  The police are still looking for her.

Keeping in mind that this kind of attack scenario is usually a male on female situation and the male is bigger and stronger, what kind of responses would have a good possiblity of being an effective counter?

I think the responses for this will be interesting for us all to hear about and then try out with our students.

Thanks!

Mike B

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Trembula

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2004, 03:45:41 AM »

Well, other than some elbows to the spine, I don't see much of empty hand counter. This is where a knife at the waistline (preferably more than one to allow access from either side) and going at the kidneys seems like one of the better solutions. Because he has her thighs trapped with his arm to carry her, knees and any sort of kicking wouldn't work too well. She probably wouldn't be able to reach around and gouge his eyes (all he would have to do would be to brush her hand off with his other hand or to lean his head forward).

Dan
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misshinryu

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2004, 05:34:07 AM »

Did you notice the bystanders?
Could she have run inside a store?
Why did she not have a gun?
Is it true that if someone really wants to do something to you, they can?
So many questions?
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Mike Steele
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mpbelzer

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2004, 09:07:44 AM »

Hey Mike & Dan,

Yes. So many questions and a tough situation to get out of.  The video shows bystanders, but they did nothing.  They appeared shocked and frozen as what to do.  A security guard saw it as it was finishing up and all he was able to do was call police.  The woman did run into the mall (away from the car that zoomed up on her) and then she ran out of the mall, back into the parking lot being chased by her attacker.  He caught her quickly, scooped he up and it was over in another 10 seconds.

Of course a weapons response as an equalizer in this situation would have helped her response if she was able to get to it and deploy it in time.  The "empty hand" response is the one I am more interested in.  Once someone is caught over the shoulder like that, they are in a very bad situation.  I see the same problems as you do Dan, knees will be ineffective, what is there to grab? Both the eyes and the groin (from behind) will be "brush aways" .
Aren't there any secret pressure point guys our there that know what combo points there are to hit/pinch/twist that will instantly stop a guy like this?

This is a good example of a "Worst Case Scenario" for anyone, not to mention a "Mom with no training".

Let's keep working on this one!

Mike
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Trembula

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2004, 12:54:29 PM »

When there is a tremendous size difference, this is a tough one. Everyone here has probably grabbed someone and carried them off in this fashion (wife, son/daughter, little sister/brother) and even though they kicked and thrashed, the only place they were going was where we were carrying them.

Something did come to mind though just now... thrashing around and then crawling down their back to escape that way. Of course, this puts you ripe for a face plant right on the deck, but if you could latch ahold of their belt, then craw down a leg, you might be able to get away that way. Muscular gouging around the lats and love handles can be effective, but we are talking about a little woman versus a big man. Housewives of today don't have the Mason jars, rolling pins, dough kneading, and everything else their grandmothers did that gave those ladies fingers of steel.

I think weapons deployment is pretty much the only halfway likely escape from this one. Even a 2" folder stabbed repeatedly into someone's back would probably get you somewhere. I know Mike S. doesn't care for them, but I think one of the "Predator" tools that I carry now would also get some results if applied to the spine. Empty handed, elbows seem about the only likely option but I don't think they are going to accomplish much.

The easiest way to solve this is for all of us to grab someone a hundred pounds lighter than us and carry them off and see what they can accomplish in ten seconds or less. I think the size difference is key to remember here since one doesn't carry off by force someone even approaching his own size in this fashion.

Dan
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szorn

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2004, 11:22:01 PM »

First off, she should have run toward people rather than away from them. If she ran into the mall, she should have stayed in the mall, running toward anyone that might have been able to help, trying to get everyone's attention as she ran. Should have been yelling, screaming (Fire!), and trying to create as much chaos as possible. If she new she couldn't outrun him, she should have stopped, turned and faced him, so she could actually have a chance at defending herself. From there she would have a better chance at preventing him from grabbing her, plus using vicous counter attacks. If she absolutely could not prevent him from grabbing her, she could easily use vicous counters such as eye gouges, throat squeezes, groin grabs, and biting to effectively get a release or at the least slow the attacker down. I agree that size does make a difference but mind-set makes more of a difference. If someone is truely determined to not be taken away like that, there is a chance that they won't be. Just watch any eposde of Cops where it takes 3 male officers to put one 90 pound woman in the back of a squad car, who simply doesn't want to go.


Steve
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Meredith

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2004, 09:06:20 AM »

My first thought when I saw this footage was that there just HAD to be a way for the woman to foil this guy's plan. I agree with Steve that she probably made some tragic errors earlier in the abduction process, but given the fact that authorities believe her abductor knew her and it was obvious that he was HIGHLY motivated, an earlier defense may or may not have been successful. Yelling for help, while always a great choice, did little, as the videotape shows a number of spectators standing around DOING NOTHING even though it was clear that she was in serious trouble...classic.

I'm looking at this as a "Worst Case Scenario" where, yep, it might have turned out differently had she done a million other things first, but instead here she is, hoisted over her abductior's shoulder. Even at this point I believe that she could have made it so hard to be carried that he would have been forced to drop her or put her down. Along the lines of what Trembula suggested re: crawling down the back, my belief is that if a woman were to completely spaz out - violently elbow him in the back of the head and neck or thrash full force with her knees and hips, it would be very hard for her abductor to continue walking without losing his balance or her falling off of his shoulder. Mike and I were just experimenting with other ideas such as: jammimg an elbow into the side of his neck (into the mastoid process) and push away HARD as you violently roll your hips AWAY from his head. From what we could determine, it seems plausible that even a very strong abductor is likely to respond by either losing his balance or letting go of his victim. But we have not spent a lot of time experimenting, so I'm curious to know: WHO HAS TRIED DIFFERENT RELEASES FROM A CARRY AND WHAT WAS THE RESULT? I'd really like to hear what worked and what didn't!

A huge component of surviving this kind of nightmare is FIGHTING SPIRIT - the willingness to do whatever is necessary to survive and the unwillingness to give up easily. Often times the BIGGEST IMPEDIMENT TO A SUCCESSFUL DEFENSE IS PSYCHOLOGICAL, NOT PHYSICAL. In this particular case the victim probably had a history of abuse with her abductor, so it's likely that she did not believe that she had the ability or even the right to defend herself. People in this situation often give up mentally and believe they are out of options when confronted with a terrifying situation like this.

I just spoke with a friend who has studied this field extensively and he suggested that beyond "giving up", the response many people have in this scenario (allowing themselves to be carried away) may also be the result of the "hard wiring" most humans have re: maintaining our balance and equlibrium to avoid falling. If we perceive that a fall is imminent, our desire to avoid it can supercede our "fight or flight" response. For the average, untrained woman, evidently she experiences a visceral response wherein almost immediately she becomes DEPENDENT ON HER ABDUCTOR AS HER BASE. HE is what is keeping her from falling, so on a completely subconcious level she finds herself unwilling to jeopardize her safety EVEN THOUGH FIGHTING AND PERHAPS FALLING WOULD ULTIMATELY BE A WAY FOR HER TO ESCAPE! Physiologically the victim is not in an unwinnable situation, as her weigh is up above her abductor's center of gravity, so if she were to "Fight like a cat that doesn't want to be held" and land a few power blows, she would likely be released. But that would mean falling, or worse, being fallen ON, which the sunbconscious mind wants to avoid at all costs. Fascinatling, huh?

Of course, the more training a person has, the less debilitating this response will likely be - it makes sense that a judo practitioner who has taken hundreds of falls over the years would probably fare better or have been able to avoid being hoisted up to begin with. But while it obvious that physical training is a crucial component of any effective assault defense (duh!), physically practicing realistic and effective escapes for THIS SCENARIO poses huge challenges for everyone involved. In order to REALLY find out what this woman might have been able to do to escape her abductor, a person would have to be willing to incur injury, maybe serious injury, while training. A face plant, being dropped from shoulder height and slamming to the ground UNDERNEATH the abductor are all likely outcomes for a realistic full-force defense and all pose significant danger for the person in the "victim" position. On the other, it's no party for the person in the "abductor" position, either! Lifting another person over your shoulder who is struggling violently, flailing wildly or slamming you with elbows (and god knows what else) in an effort to make you let go or FALL DOWN WITH THEM ON TOP OF YOU is daunting, to say the least! Consequently, this type of scenario / defense is hard to train, even for us using the full force protective gear - it's simply too dangerous.

So again, I'm asking you all: Have you had hands-on experience training an escape from a shoulder carry scenario? If so, HOW did you approach the training (what method did you use) and what skills / defenses were effective? Please let us know because I've yet to see any system address this sceanrio in a pratical, effective way.

Thanks!
Meredith
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plouffeka

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2004, 08:21:19 PM »

I took Dan's advice and did an experiment.  Last night I picked up my 14-year-old daughter over my shoulder and told her fight her way out of it. 

She did... and quickly.  This leads me to think that either the abduction was a hoax (as suggested as a possibility by Fox news - I think) or, as was mentioned above by Steve and Meredith, that woman went into a hard wired response (like when people getting choked from the front fixate on the hands to their throat and ignore attacking the eyes, elbow, etc) or she lacked a fighting spirit.

On the first trial with my daughter, I picked her up (she's chin high to me and I definitely have the weight and strength advantage) and told her to knee me.  Although she could not do a very effective knee strike, it was disrupting to my balance to have her knee strike, since she had to lean back a bit (causing more weight in front of me).  Her kneeing "accidentally" turned into kicking, which targeted my groin (a quarter inch to the left and I wouldn't feel like typing today).

The second trial was to test an idea I had.  She flayed around and wrapped her legs around the front of me.  From this position, not only did she have access to my eyes, but having to support such a weight shift was unbalancing and difficult (and I wasn't even running or walking).  She was able to repeat this with me trying to secure her legs better - this time she came to my side and wrapped her legs around me.  Again many targets opened up for her (which she exploited "for the cause").

The last trail was in response to the suggestion that any eye or face attacks could be easily swept away.  I told her to stay over my shoulder, but reach back and attack my face.  She had no problem doing this, especially as she wriggled about.  Trying to hold onto her and protect my face proved next to impossible and she was able to get in multiple hits.

In conclusion, don't underestimate an enthusiastic stuntman or stuntwoman - wear protective equipment.

Secondly, the over the shoulder throw and carry maybe more easily defeated than first suggested, but a person does have to overcome hardwiring and have a fighting spirit.

Keith
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Professor

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2004, 06:01:49 AM »

I took Dan's advice and did an experiment.  Last night I picked up my 14-year-old daughter over my shoulder and told her fight her way out of it. 

She did... and quickly.  This leads me to think that either the abduction was a hoax (as suggested as a possibility by Fox news - I think) or, as was mentioned above by Steve and Meredith, that woman went into a hard wired response (like when people getting choked from the front fixate on the hands to their throat and ignore attacking the eyes, elbow, etc) or she lacked a fighting spirit.

On the first trial with my daughter, I picked her up (she's chin high to me and I definitely have the weight and strength advantage) and told her to knee me.  Although she could not do a very effective knee strike, it was disrupting to my balance to have her knee strike, since she had to lean back a bit (causing more weight in front of me).  Her kneeing "accidentally" turned into kicking, which targeted my groin (a quarter inch to the left and I wouldn't feel like typing today).

The second trial was to test an idea I had.  She flayed around and wrapped her legs around the front of me.  From this position, not only did she have access to my eyes, but having to support such a weight shift was unbalancing and difficult (and I wasn't even running or walking).  She was able to repeat this with me trying to secure her legs better - this time she came to my side and wrapped her legs around me.  Again many targets opened up for her (which she exploited "for the cause").

The last trail was in response to the suggestion that any eye or face attacks could be easily swept away.  I told her to stay over my shoulder, but reach back and attack my face.  She had no problem doing this, especially as she wriggled about.  Trying to hold onto her and protect my face proved next to impossible and she was able to get in multiple hits.

In conclusion, don't underestimate an enthusiastic stuntman or stuntwoman - wear protective equipment.

Secondly, the over the shoulder throw and carry maybe more easily defeated than first suggested, but a person does have to overcome hardwiring and have a fighting spirit.

Keith



Give your daughter a hug and thank her for us.....   Great experiment.   Thanks for sharing!!!
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Meredith

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2004, 11:07:45 AM »

Yes, a big THANK YOU to you and your daughter, Keith! Not only did I love hearing the positive results, but it's so great that she could help you, as she now has a better understanding of how to deal with this bad situation. There is SO much to be learned / gained through this type of experimentation!

I've always wanted to test this scenario out myself, but at 6'0" tall, it's not easy to find guys willing to hoist me over their shoulder. Wimps...   ;) :D
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Meredith Gold
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Professor

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2004, 02:08:03 AM »

Yes, a big THANK YOU to you and your daughter, Keith! Not only did I love hearing the positive results, but it's so great that she could help you, as she now has a better understanding of how to deal with this bad situation. There is SO much to be learned / gained through this type of experimentation!

I've always wanted to test this scenario out myself, but at 6'0" tall, it's not easy to find guys willing to hoist me over their shoulder. Wimps...   ;) :D



Merideth, Merideth, Merideth....





                                         You disappoint me....








85 words....    You sneeze more words than that......   get with the program.      ;D
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Kentbob

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2004, 11:59:09 AM »

I am a big guy, and so what I have to say about being carried over the shoulder may not apply, but here goes anyway.  I have been hoisted a few times, both against my will, and as part of training.  In addition, I have hoisted some of the smaller members of my unit, guys weighing about 130 pounds or so.  It was not hard for me to escape being over someone's shoulder, but that may be because of my size.  As far as carrying someone myself, the over the shoulder carry like that requires a little bit of cooperation, and even with cooperation it is not easy to carry a 130 pound person however far and deposit them somewhere.  It is also extremely uncomfortable for the person being carried, and easy for them to be dropped.  So, I have to conclude that with little or no effort, an attempt can be made to wiggle free, and continue the fight on both feet.  On the other hand, my training has always been conducted as if we were moving a casualty, so instead of securing the casualty with both hands, we used one, and the other to carry his gear, and ours.  With two hands free, and no extra equipment to speak of, it may be quite a bit easier to secure a smaller woman.  If I knew any nearby that wanted to try, I would give it a look-see.   Hope my input makes sense, and heps a little.


Kent
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SZacharyH

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2004, 11:48:33 PM »

RE:Picked up over shoulder....

I've been a martial artist for over thirty years, and though I haven't had a chance to thoroughly go over the responses to this problem listed, it seemed to me nobody mentioned the obvious:  If you're hanging down over someone's shouldler, grab hold of what you cand and BITE THEM FOR AS LONG AND AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!  Don't let go until he throws you screaming (his screaming) off his shoulder and sees the blood seeping through his clothes.

Very few things are as painful, disorienting and unnerving as a real SERIOUS bite.  I've been bitten and have bitten myself.  After the immediate savage bite, consider what other options are open to you.  You may not need any.  Closing with a biter raises the stakes quite a bit.

Again, apologies if someone has mentioned this before and I've missed it.

Regards

SZacharyH
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Kentbob

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2004, 11:55:13 PM »

RE:Picked up over shoulder....

I've been a martial artist for over thirty years, and though I haven't had a chance to thoroughly go over the responses to this problem listed, it seemed to me nobody mentioned the obvious:  If you're hanging down over someone's shouldler, grab hold of what you cand and BITE THEM FOR AS LONG AND AS HARD AS YOU CAN!!!  Don't let go until he throws you screaming (his screaming) off his shoulder and sees the blood seeping through his clothes.

Very few things are as painful, disorienting and unnerving as a real SERIOUS bite.  I've been bitten and have bitten myself.  After the immediate savage bite, consider what other options are open to you.  You may not need any.  Closing with a biter raises the stakes quite a bit.

Again, apologies if someone has mentioned this before and I've missed it.

Regards

SZacharyH




Good point, Zachary.  I had forgotten all about biting, and I don't recall hearing anyone else mention it either.  In a situation like that, I think biting would most definitely be a great idea.  I'd love to hear what everyone else thinks.
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Milldog1776

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Re: Picked up over the shoulder and thrown into the trunk
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2004, 03:19:09 PM »

Yes. So many questions and a tough situation to get out of.  The video shows bystanders, but they did nothing.  They appeared shocked and frozen as what to do.  A security guard saw it as it was finishing up and all he was able to do was call police.  The woman did run into the mall (away from the car that zoomed up on her) and then she ran out of the mall, back into the parking lot being chased by her attacker.  He caught her quickly, scooped he up and it was over in another 10 seconds.

I think we are missing the big picture here. From the above information about the bystanders, I feel our job is not to figure out a "technique" that the woman could have used. Our jobs as instructors is to develop the type of character in a person to not be a shocked bystander. I can honestly (and proudly) say I know for sure that my entire senior student roster would have jumped on that guy. He might have whipped the tar out of them, but she would not have gone in that trunk. That is the type of person this country needs more of. A big difference in a human"being" and a human "doing".

Where's John Wayne now that we need him most?

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