Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hock]

Sean Ross wrote this about the classical martial arts practice of punching with one hand and positoning your other fist on your hip. The subject makes for interesting discussion...


I'll give you my perspective on punching with the other hand on your hip:  I think that there is only one time that my opposite hand should be on my hip during a strike  -- that is if my opponents hand/shirt/head is in it.  I visualize that everytime I do that particular exercise.  I never start a punch with one hand on the hip, I start all punches from covered fight stance.  Sometimes I visualize grabbing a part of my opponents body and doing a reverse punch. 

In my experience, reverse punches only work when you can kind of immobilize your opponent anyway.  Jabs until you close the distance - grab something on the way in and do a reverse power punch as you close the distance.

That said, if you make a student practice reverse punches and don't tell them when and why they would do that, I think you are doing them a great disservice.  Same thing about spending long time in practice stances.  Tell them it is to build leg strength - OK.  Tell them they are going to fight like that - bad news.

Sean

[Hock]

It has been a litmus test going back...oh...1985-ish (?) that if a pracitioner puts his or her fist on the hip, they are not modern, progressive fighters. They become typecast and even ridiculed.

The horse stance training and the bow stance training of the reverse punch that hauls the fits back to the hip, is a hot spot litmus test. To summarize this point, and maybe this is a bad example for some, but, a UFC/Pride fighter would NEVER, ever dream of this position.

Also It is important to think of this in terms of the direction of business and whether your potential students think of you as stodgy and outdated, or modern and progressive.

And in fact, there are many systems, dozens, that punch like dynamite without this fist-on-hip practice.

Hock

[Bri Thai]

Many agree that the power (or at least a great proportion of it) comes from the hip.  The "hip first" body mechanics can make for a very hard shot.  But why should the fist actually come from there also?  Its silly to me, and tactically unsound.

Once the body has set the wheels of the delivery system in motion, the striking hand should be able to join the party from just about anywhere and then snap into the attack line just prior to the target.

[JimH]

The threory behind the fist to hip,rib,or near the chest was that the limb was in its most contracted position at that point ready to uncoil like a spring or loaded rubber band.
(the rear delt is flexed,the front deltoid is tight in recoil,the bicep is flexed so when the punch is executed the power is already being generated from the start,the triceps push forward as does the front deltoid ,the hip twists and maximum power is generated all simultaneously)

If we think of the origins of the Japanese(and many korean) styles of Karate  from say the Samurai period then their hands would have been near the sword handle,the hip, when initiating the punch.

The punch should be deliverable from anywhere from the hip to an inch from the target.

The time from hip to target is also the longest,if we look at the extended arm as just past the point of contact,so it takkes a bit more time to deliver than say a punch from a Boxing stance.

Just my view

[Kentbob]

  Its all about what you are looking for, IMO.  Anyone with a decent amount of common sense should be able to see that they would never want to place their fist on their hip in a streetfight, so if they go into a style that does that in the dojo, then this person is either looking for that traditional flavor, or able to adapt the concepts of that style into a more street ready stance.

Kent

[Hock]

It is muscle memory I worry about. Unsafe things that folks do thousands of times in training, that they resort to under stress.

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

In the style I trained in whilst in Australia we worked the fist on the chest up until green belt and then threw it from a modified boxing stance afterwards.  The reason was akin to what Jim said, it was for developing the muscle used over the full range of motion from maximum contraction to maximum extension.

As it was explained to me that way you built to where you could punch close range like a rip into the floating ribs with someone right on top of you, to mid range as in an uppercut to long range as in a reverse punch.

Once you could generate power - about green belt level - you then set about shortening the range of motion and trying to develop the same amount of power.

I never saw any issues with muscle memory because you didn't go on the door till brown belt - by which point you'd been training for three months at throwing it from a fighting stance.  Even prior to that stage when sparring nobody had there hands on their hip.

You have to remember that karate as the Japanese practice it was the basics of Okinawan karate, not the advanced stuff.  Funakoshi was invited over to teach them this striking art (Japanese were primarily grapplers) and the Japanese, once they thought they had it, kicked Funakoshi to the curb and ran with it.  The idea in Goju and most related Okinawan systems is that you teach linear hard long range motions to beginners only, then at green belt you introduce them to the circular just as you teach infants to print before they learn cursive.  It was the same as if the Japanese had invited someone over to teach them to write, saw the printing and said "thanks very much, we've got it now"

So many people still think the Japanese invented karate.  In reality it's only about eighty years old.  There never used to be roundhouse kicks in because you couldn't throw them in kimino and/or geta and spinning back kicks came out of Chinese arts stolen by the Koreans who also stole Karate from the Japanese (All Tae Kwan Do forms are just Japanese forms with kicks added)

You can get a good handle on all the historical side of it in McCarthy's book "Bubushi" [he spent years in Okinawa, China and Japan tracking all the stuff down] and Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan Te.

Anyway, I digress...Jim is right (again ) the full reverse punch is a training punch only, not how you're supposed to fight.  Just because some jackass misinterpreted the moves (happens a lot in karate) everyone thought that's how you're supposed to fight.  Be a little like me watching the Charlotte Panthers running through the tires at training and then running home to teach Australians how to play grid iron and start by putting tires down on the field.

[ghostrider]

History tells us that the fist on the hip was adapted from the actual act of grabbing and pulling an arm or weapon out and down. Just like actions such as wrist manipulations are from the action of the ancient Japanese Warriors. When someone was close and attempted to stop the action of the sword being drawn (hand on wrist) then the warrior would manipulate a wrist lock action and continue the sword draw to cut his opponent. The act of having the fist on the hip today is due to more of tradition than physics. Those of us who started in tradtional Karate know that experience. In reality though if you did start learning from the fist on hip position then you should be able to have that fist anywhere you want to punch from.  Just my two cents guys!

[Hock]

But many, MANY say the non-punching fist on rib cage or the hip helps the other hand's punching power via the twisting torso movement. You can't forget that story! Also there are those that like to draw an imaginery line from the hip to the punch as some basis of better power.

I was always confused in the beginning.

Countless horse stance punches and retracting fist to ribs. But, when we fought in class at the local littls tournies, the hip punch was gone? And the rib trick was a ticket to a hook punch. I was confused. Why even do it so much? Or at all?

Many systems create hard hitters without the slightest mention of chambering punches back to the hip or rib cage.

Finally I gave it up.

Hock

[Hock]

Mike Steele's reply (was kind of lost is the end of another topic and moved here)

Response to Nick;

"you then set about shortening the range of motion and trying to develop the same amount of power."

Right on! Nothing wrong with that. Shimabuku taught us to do this in the two hand up ready position. Seen at the beggining of Sunsu kata. Can be done with one hand at the hip as well. The kata starts with two fist up even. Elbows pointed down to gaurd torso, fist level with shoulders. We can punch from there or chambered from the hip. Works great etheir way. More power from the hip due to momentum. Still, if using the hip, the other hand is up in a gaurd.
 

"Even prior to that stage when sparring nobody had there hands on their hip."

Most of the time my hands are up in a double kamae. Sometimes I use a basic fighting stance with one hand on hip other up in the guard. It is not glued to my hip. It moves as I move. Seems to work for me. I even use it for my unorthodox students. It is my labrotory.Tatsuo Shimabuku learned this fro Kyan, Miyagi and Motobu.

"The idea in Goju and most related Okinawan systems is that you teach linear hard long range motions to beginners only, then at green belt you introduce them to the circular just as you teach infants to print before they learn cursive. "

Nick, that is a new one on me. There is no grounds for what you say as far as Okinawan karate is concerned. Did you study Okinawan karate or Japanese Goju?
Does this apply to your understanding in knife fighting as well. Circular slashes are better then straight thrust or stabs? The quickest way from one point to another is a curve? Did you really mean what you said here?
Not discounting circular moves but hey...

Roundhouse kicks are not within Isshin-ryu basic kicks. Reason is best illustrated during my test for Hocks BB rank in unarmed combatives. The young man I was sparring with was doing his kickboxing thing and throwing roundhouse kicks to my waist area (?). Each time he did that I did a front snap kick to his groin housing unit. Three times. I did not make contact, so I am not sure if Hock saw it or not. Made contact later with a classic reverse punch. Training purpose(?)
Hmmm! Now lets figure this one out. One man throws his circular kick and it is easily blocked while the other just lifts leg to the target zone. Straight shot!
Within the system of IR the kicks are quick snapping kicks to the joints. (Most of the time)

"You can get a good handle on all the historical side of it in McCarthy's book "Bubushi" [he spent years in Okinawa, China and Japan tracking all the stuff down] and Mark Bishop's book on Okinawan Te."

Read them both and their history is a little different then others. Met McCarthy in Alexandria...(Recomend reading,  "Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" by Shoshin Nagamine and "Okinawan Goju-ryu" by Toguchi.)

McCarthy is obsessed in looking for tegumi in every kata. Sometimes you just have to hit them instead of grapple.

"Anyway, I digress...Jim is right (again ) the full reverse punch is a training punch only, not how you're supposed to fight.  Just because some jackass misinterpreted the moves (happens a lot in karate) everyone thought that's how you're supposed to fight. "

Are we talking the same thing here? Is this yours and Jim opinion what do have this based in? With all due respect to both of you, that is not an accurate assesment of the reverse punch, if we are talking about the same thing. As far as jackass are concerned, are you talking about all those Okinawan masters, senseis? Kyan, Miyagi, Motobu, Shimabuku, etc. Pretty bold statement is'nt it? 

Mike

[usks1]

This seems to be getting really heavy over what is really personal preference.

Both camps can debate, and give reasons why each one is better till the cows come home.. It has already been done on other forums, in many discussions / arguments here and all over the world.

The bottom line is that as long as you understand the benefits and the risks of keeping your hands up or chambered, then it is your choice how you want to throw....

There is no way everyone is going to agree, and no way some will be convinced that theirs is not the right way...

As for me, I have done it both ways, and I am keeping my hands up, and elbows in..

Keep up the hard training.

Dean.

[seanross]

I did the traditional kung-fu thing.  Spent lots of time in low, idealized stances, kept my hands low near the waist when punching etc.  That was the first year of training.  Then I started sparring.  My low stances couldn't move fast enough and I kept getting kicked in the legs and chest.  I didn't block my head and got my bell dinged.  I remember one move out of a form that had you knife chopping at a kick.  I tried it in sparring and damn near got my wrist broken.  It didn't take long for me to figure it out.

Then I had a choice.  Was I mentally agile enough to do my forms one way and fight another?  There are some great fighters out there who do traditional forms and can knock the stuffing out of me, so I can't say that doing traditional forms ruins fighting.  I have never met a great fighter who actually moved like traditional forms, so somehow they have a little mental compartment that says "traditional forms here" and "fighting techniques here".  I have great difficulty doing that, so I modify all my traditional stuff to include working fight tactics.

One thing though.  You build a staircase to get from where you are to a higher level.  Once at the higher level, you can see what you couldn't see before.  You still couldn't have arrived there without the staircase.  I think Hock is at a higher level of martial awareness than are many people.  I wonder if he could have got there without all the traditional stuff he learned and then discarded when it no longer served him.  I think we work and learn on traditional stuff until we have learned what it can teach us.  Then we move on. 

[Hock]

I wonder if he could have got there without all the traditional stuff he learned and then discarded when it no longer served him.

Yup.

I think that is a misnomer. Being a beginner doesn't mean someone first, must do all that stuff.  And "that stuff" is so subjective? What sliver of what branch of what classical system deems important? The Gracies would say you must do their program as a foundation. The Krav say you must do their program as the foundation. The karate people say theirs.

Some things in there serve and some thing don't. Just don't do those parts. But in a rigid, non changing system, a new or old person has to do it all. You can have a system made of just the rightful, serving things.

I'll bet a bunch of the new breed, ass-kicking UFC guys never wore a gi and stood in a horse stance. Some have (please folks, don't list them) many haven't. The have and have nots are as good as each other. Nor has a Thai guy, or MANY systems. Mike Tyson never did horse stance punches and can destroy a brick wall.

I think you can get quite good and quite capable without slogging through the morass that many traditional systems offer up.

Modern training, independant of the old ways can still produce the same end product. And probably faster. In some cases even better on a wider spectrum of areas.

Muscle memory is the blessing and the curse. If you do the wrong thing too many times...you do the wrong thing when it counts.



Hock

[JimH]

Those of us that came into traditional arts in the 60's and 70's,before the big rise in people wanting martial arts,we trained in traditional styles with traditional equipment.

We used what the instructor had learned to use in what ever country he trained in,we used the method of progression taught to them.(we didn't use their timeline of progression thouhgh,lol)

We learned the Hands on Hips, I learned mine and posted the reason given to me and it was the same reason given in Tae Kwon Do by a Korean who learned Shotokan,also my training in Shotokan and in American Combat Karate,we learned the fists at chest level in wing chun.

As has been said after competing in tournaments you learn the long stances take too long to move in,you learn the hands on hips do not allow for quick blocks,you learn that the distance to target from the hip punch takes too long.

Look at the clips of tournament fighters in the 60's and see the problems in time they had as compared to today's fighters,we kept shoulders squared,we had long stances,we charged in one or two long strides and a reverse punch from the hip,then back out reset and go again.

Then Look at the changes made by men like Lewis,Norris and stone who started to use a boxers mode of hand delivery (from Bruce Lee) and we see them winning and the change in delivery position and distance changes.

Today you may see beginners use the hand on hip,but as they progress they quickly adapt to the boxers deliver method.

I am not knocking my roots or the methods they used ,as they used what had been taught for ages and the training was hard and brutal and was REALITY,but if there is a better way  try it learn it ,if it fits use it.

[Nick Hughes]

[quote]"The idea in Goju and most related Okinawan systems is that you teach linear hard long range motions to beginners only, then at green belt you introduce them to the circular just as you teach infants to print before they learn cursive. "

Nick, that is a new one on me. There is no grounds for what you say as far as Okinawan karate is concerned. Did you study Okinawan karate or Japanese Goju?
Does this apply to your understanding in knife fighting as well. Circular slashes are better then straight thrust or stabs? The quickest way from one point to another is a curve? Did you really mean what you said here?
Not discounting circular moves but hey...

[/b]

Mike, I've studied both systems of Goju as well as a bastardized version and Shito-Ryu.  All the kata in the Okinawan and Japanese versions of Goju are linear up until about green belt 6th kyu level.  Whether it's the Gegisai series or Na Han Si (aka Tekki) or the ido kihon basics series...all linear.

At Green belt we then learn Sanchin - still linear - before breaking off into Tensho, Saifa, San Sayru, Si Soo Chin, Saiinchin, Sae San, Kururunfa, Superumpai, Saipei et al.

Now, that's how it's done in the traditional systems.  I don't know how Isshinryu does it because Shimabuku Sensei 'invented' it in the early fifties if memory serves and borrowed heavily from Goju.  That's a little like looking at what Hock does now and comparing it to how the Filipinos do it because once he did FMA.  By Hock's own admission he dropped a lot of what they did as he deemed it no longer relevant.  Maybe Shimabuku did the same...I don't know enough about Isshinryu to comment but yep, I'll stick to my guns re the linear comes first line. 

It's the same in Aikido.  Yoshinkan Aikido is a better representation of what Aikido used to be like before being hijacked by the tree-hugger set...it is, linear and then circular only once the linear has been explored.

When I'm referring to circular over linear it's probably not what you're thinking i.e. it's not hook punches v straight rights. The hands open up, the blocks are all circular and the study goes more internal than external..hence the word Goju made up of the two characters for hard and soft respectively.  By studying one or the other you limit yourself as a fighter...it's like someone only learning how to grapple and not bothering with striking or vice versa.  Goju and its cousins strived to combine the best of both worlds.

Read them both and their history is a little different then others. Met McCarthy in Alexandria...(Recomend reading,  "Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" by Shoshin Nagamine and "Okinawan Goju-ryu" by Toguchi.)

McCarthy is obsessed in looking for tegumi in every kata. Sometimes you just have to hit them instead of grapple.

[/b]

I give the nod to both McCarthy and Bishop because they actually went over there and travelled between Japan, Okinawa and China searching for documentation and proof.  A lot of the Japanese authors and/or Okinawan or Chinese authors in a lot of cases are just putting down the fokelore stories they were told with little or no verification.

I agree with you about the striking and grappling...my personal take is there's an equal amount of both but a lot of people don't get beyond the obvious striking aps which is why I think McCarthy pushes the other end of the spectrum.

Anyway, I digress...Jim is right (again ) the full reverse punch is a training punch only, not how you're supposed to fight.  Just because some jackass misinterpreted the moves (happens a lot in karate) everyone thought that's how you're supposed to fight. "

Are we talking the same thing here? Is this yours and Jim opinion what do have this based in? With all due respect to both of you, that is not an accurate assesment of the reverse punch, if we are talking about the same thing. As far as jackass are concerned, are you talking about all those Okinawan masters, senseis? Kyan, Miyagi, Motobu, Shimabuku, etc. Pretty bold statement is'nt it?

[/b]

Perhaps it's a bold statement but it's based upon my own research over the years.  Most of the forms that have the long punch in a recent creations - the gegisai series for example was designed to teach school students to get them ready for war and was more of a martial drill than how to fight per se.

In the higher rank kata we don't see so many of them...and we certainly don't see a lot of them when we see higher ranks sparring.  There one of those techniques that work well when the other guy is doing the same thing (happens in most martial arts) but should he try introducing something else you find out pretty quick it's not that effective.

I wasn't specifically referring to that punch by the way when I talked about misinterpretations...I'm referring to almost all of the techniques.  Look at everything that we think of as a block.  Most of them are circular movements and, as you quite correctly pointed out, a linear technique will  cover the distance faster...doesn't stop a lot of people misinterpreting them though.  Kansetsu geri is another one, it's not a kick against one person's knee, it's dealing with two attackers who've grabbed you from the front.  Your initial move, lifting the knee to chamber the kick is actually kneeing the guy on the left in the nads, the kicking portion then kicks the guy through the knee on the right, the leg coming back to chamber is actually de-ashi barai or footsweeping the first guy and the foot returning to the ground is stamping him into the deck.  Most people aren't aware of it because rather than apply any sort of logic to sorting out the moves they just blindly follow the leader.

N

PS:  I keep telling you we have to get together and work out and we can play with this stuff all day...