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Author Topic: De Professor et al...debate time  (Read 2816 times)

Nick Hughes

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De Professor et al...debate time
« on: November 23, 2004, 10:34:14 AM »

Alright, it's quiet on the boards...time for some debate.

Before we get going let me just say the tone of this email is supposed to be conversational and not confrontational.  One of the problems with email is we get into a debate about our respective viewpoints re a technique or style and everyone gets their hackles up.  If we were having the same conversation round a table, over dinner, after a seminar for example, it'd be fun and everyone would be laughing.

As you know I don't agree with the arm wrap.  I still think it's a big man's technique, is hard to pull off when sweating, bleeding and slippery and isn't a good idea when dealing with multiples.  I have, as stated before, used it, but I'm 6'8". 

Now, in case your memories need refreshing ;) the last time we got into this one of your most common justifications was that thousands of untrained inidividuals pull it off in fights all the time.

So, here's my problem with that one.  Thousands of untrained individuals also stick their thumbs inside their fists and punch so should I do that to?  Thousands of untrained people also put their heads down and run at the opposition swinging those same thumb filled fists like drunken chimpanzees...should I also teach my students that version?

See, as martial artists I've always thought we should be a cut above the great herds of the unwashed and untrained and, the fact that "they" do something, is probably justification as to why I shouldn't.

Over to you Prof :)  Let's get this party started.

N
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Kentbob

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Re: De Professor et al...debate time
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2004, 12:14:20 AM »

     Well, I for one have to say that the arm wrap, in my opinion, is a viable technique.  Have I pulled it off on the street?  No, but I haven't been in any streetfights either.  Have I pulled it off in real-time, against another opponent?  Yes.  However, I was not sweating, slippery, bleeding, or any of those other things you mention.  As has been said before, not every technique is suited to every situation.  Mulitiple attackers, arm wrap?  Probably not.  One diminished attacker, possibly drunk or drugged?  Sure, why not?  It is my feeling, that the arm wrap should fall into the "accidental/incidental" category, must like joint locks. 
   Curious to hear everyone else's opinion.
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plouffeka

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Re: De Professor et al...debate time
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2004, 01:30:50 AM »

How about this - I was successfully arm wrapped by one of my students during a sparring session two weeks ago.  Being an old guy with a small class I am always working to keep up with some of my young students.  One guy is very athletic and a natural brawler.  After one of our first sparring sessions, I asked if he was sure he never trained before, to which he replied, "No, but I grew up with five older brothers on a farm."  Ah-ha. 

I like sparring with him because he's very aggressive and has good instincts.   In fact, now that I think about it, during one of his level test we were doing a combat scenario at about 3/4 speed.  As I went to batter him, he somehow got me in an Under-the-Arm Takedown (which was not part of the level, but he had seen it used in various demonstrations).  It was, as it has been stated "accidental and incidental".  Surprised him as much as it surprised me.

Now to the arm wrap.  We were sparring with knives (I usually act the thug and attack in an untrained manner without making it too easy on the person) and - it happened so fast I have to think about it - he clashed in after a series of slashes on my part, wrapped my knife arm, could have easily hyper-extended it, and then (as Joe Hubbard talks about) used it to anchor himself to me and delivery some blows.

Again, he didn't plan it - it was just there as part of his invasion in.  We were sweating, but the sweat did not interfere with the sudden snap of locking my arm in as he curled around it and jerked (luckily not hard enough to damage my elbow or shoulder, but I could see how it easily could).  Of course, we are about equal height and weight.

Would I tell someone to walk up to an attacker and arm wrap?  No.  Would I advise someone that it should be their first option when facing someone taller than them?  No.  Would I still teach it for when the clash is on and you've found your arm wrapping around their limb in an attempt to stop their attack and you snap that bad boy for all you're worth and then beat their head?  Yeah, buddy, I would.

The key words are - "accidental and incidental".  I hammer that in to my students, then teach them, and then drill them, so that like this natural brawler, their body will recognize a set up and execute what is at hand.

Keith
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kamagong

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Re: De Professor et al...debate time
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2004, 08:17:42 AM »

Hey guys!  I agree with Jeff "De Professor" Allen when he says everyone gets in an uproar, in email, you can't read body language and vocal inflections which are more important than we give them credit for when reading what someone means and if they are upset, or joking. 

Now to the question at hand,  I think it should be taught, but as stated, taught as incidental or accidental maybe.  The thing to remember, I believe, as teachers if you know a technique then teach it.  It may not work for you, but maybe there will be two or three or maybe even one student in class to which it will be a great technique.  They may be able to pull it off 95% of the time.  If I can't pull a technique off, I tell them honestly that I teach it, I have not gotten it to work for me, but they should play with it in training and become familiar with it.  If it works great, if not don't let it be your first choice.

Another thing I tell my guys, and in fights I have found this to be true numerous times, when it comes to techniques and positions for them there is good, better, best, and then where-ever you find yourself.  the majority of the time it will be where-ever you find yourself.  You better be familiar with what you can do from that position or reference point, and improvise.

I have taught the arm wrap, but not necesessarily as a trap, more as a transitional move to buy you a split second and disrupt your opponents movements long enough to do something.  Not a "go to jail" tech. as Hock would say.  We will probably see people who say they have done it, and it works, then others who say it is no good.  That's cool.  I never thought I would get a kaputa kapala on a guy in a fight, but in one of my earliest altercations with a shoplifter, I pulled it off.  It happened so quick that I realized I had done it afterward when I threw him, and had him on his back pinned.  Now, I teach the Kaputa Kapala, I have never gotten it again since, but it is good to know it is in my repetuar if I need it.
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Professor

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Re: De Professor et al...debate time
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2004, 08:58:16 PM »

Alright, it's quiet on the boards...time for some debate.

Before we get going let me just say the tone of this email is supposed to be conversational and not confrontational.  One of the problems with email is we get into a debate about our respective viewpoints re a technique or style and everyone gets their hackles up.  If we were having the same conversation round a table, over dinner, after a seminar for example, it'd be fun and everyone would be laughing.

As you know I don't agree with the arm wrap.  I still think it's a big man's technique, is hard to pull off when sweating, bleeding and slippery and isn't a good idea when dealing with multiples.  I have, as stated before, used it, but I'm 6'8". 

Now, in case your memories need refreshing ;) the last time we got into this one of your most common justifications was that thousands of untrained inidividuals pull it off in fights all the time.

So, here's my problem with that one.  Thousands of untrained individuals also stick their thumbs inside their fists and punch so should I do that to?  Thousands of untrained people also put their heads down and run at the opposition swinging those same thumb filled fists like drunken chimpanzees...should I also teach my students that version?

See, as martial artists I've always thought we should be a cut above the great herds of the unwashed and untrained and, the fact that "they" do something, is probably justification as to why I shouldn't.

Over to you Prof :)  Let's get this party started.

N


Tell me when there's an argument....I'll jump right in.   The arm wrap is great as long as my weapon is tickling his kidney or my fingers are tickling his brain. 

Any other time, It's just a couple of guys dancing....
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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

kamagong

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Re: De Professor et al...debate time
« Reply #5 on: November 24, 2004, 11:28:13 PM »

Okey-dokey, I think it works just fine, especially if you add in a forearm strike to the brachial, if the knife is tickling the side of your body, them will it do serious damage, or will it be superficial cuts?

 If you have the arm wrapped already, and you let go, you will get cut worse.  As for the sweating, bleeding,etc.  We have done this with dish soap on the arm, cons do this sometimes.  If you grab into the elbow and tricep, then it makes pulling the arm out more difficult, if you go into the person when they pull their arm toward themself, it makes it even harder for them to get it loose. 

If you try to stand and go strength to strength with a stronger person then yourself on this one, then yes, they will pull the arm out and slice you up.  If you hold on, grip the tricep and/or elbow, move with them, knee and forearm and palm strike repeatedly, I think it is a viable and effecive tech.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2004, 11:40:46 PM by kamagong »
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A life lived without a few scars is a wasted life.
 

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