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Author Topic: Rear Naked Choke  (Read 9733 times)

mleone

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Rear Naked Choke
« on: April 12, 2006, 08:23:39 AM »

Just some inspiration,
my older brother is Corrections Officer in Pennsylvania  Right around Dingmans Ferry area.
He said inmates are practicing Rear naked choke on each other from watching UFC on spike tv.
He said its happening in alot of prisons across the nation. More information to follow after I speak to him today. Knowledge is power to criminals. But yet our system give thems cable tv and education.

They are practicing to the point of unconciousness. Train hard people....Train real hard.

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TAC

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2006, 09:47:07 AM »

New DVD idea for Hock..."Escapes from the rear choke"

The best and maybe the only escape - carry a knife that you can deploy quickly. Thrust to the thigh or his neck if you can reach round to get it. You could also attempt to cut the choking forearm (but at the risk of cutting your own face).
There's always that cool trick of digging your elbow into that nerve that runs along the shin. But what are the chances of being able to pull that off? What if it's a standing situation and you can't get the shin?

When put on properly, the rear choke is one of those few bastard moves that we can do very little to stop. That's why it's one of my faves.

Sharif
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Professor

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2006, 09:53:05 AM »

New DVD idea for Hock..."Escapes from the rear choke"

The best and maybe the only escape - carry a knife that you can deploy quickly. Thrust to the thigh or his neck if you can reach round to get it. You could also attempt to cut the choking forearm (but at the risk of cutting your own face).
There's always that cool trick of digging your elbow into that nerve that runs along the shin. But what are the chances of being able to pull that off? What if it's a standing situation and you can't get the shin?

When put on properly, the rear choke is one of those few bastard moves that we can do very little to stop. That's why it's one of my faves.

Sharif

There is a LOT to do with a rear naked choke.   

However, "When put on properly," you must react in a very vicious manner....partners get hurt quickly playing this way.

The nice part....even 95% of the trained guys leave lots of room for you to counter.
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mleone

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2006, 09:55:08 AM »

Just an FYI there isnt much you can do once its fully locked.
There a pre-choke escapes, once its locked your in a bad shape! Your not obviously dead till your dead.
But the reality is about 6-7 seconds.

The only some option after locked, These arent all my options but some options from others I know.

Push backwards into a wall where he gets hurt.
Lift your feet off the ground to create difficult weight for him.
Testicle grab- If your going to die its a good idea.
Foot stomp if available
Digging your chin can be changed over to a carotid choke or blood choke. I do this all the time.
Backward Headbutt

There are a few more as well.

Im talking to Jim Mccaan about a possible theme DVD. I would like for us to put our heads together.
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jaybo

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2006, 10:35:25 AM »

Yep UFC tactics are becoming a problem allright, the prison where I work at we had an Inmate
demonstrating a triangle choke. He choked two other inmates completly out before staff found out what was going on.

He now resides in administrative segragation. ;D
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Shogun79

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2006, 11:17:41 AM »

Thanks for the heads up.  Those of us who work the streets sometimes forget about our brothers and sisters working in corrections.  We need more communication between the two.  You see what they're practicing on before they leave lock up.  We don't find out about the trends until one of us gets hurt or killed.  I will inform my fellow trainers.
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Wardog

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2006, 01:20:15 PM »

 I agree, once the choke is "locked" there is not a million ways or even several avenues of escape. You are in big crap. 

 The one thing corrections should do is ban violent sport viewing of any kind. Or anything that gets the adrenaline flowing to the point of them acting out. Controlled sports activities are one thing. Allowing these guys to learn new techniques such as training them to box or dissect martial arts moves from tv and video should be a no no. But then again that would make sense.
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Milldog1776

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2006, 02:35:39 PM »

The one thing corrections should do is ban violent sport viewing of any kind. Or anything that gets the adrenaline flowing to the point of them acting out. Controlled sports activities are one thing. Allowing these guys to learn new techniques such as training them to box or dissect martial arts moves from tv and video should be a no no. But then again that would make sense.

Agreed. What the F@$k are the warden's thinking? Watching these shows is just one step away from a training video!

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Nick Hughes

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2006, 02:39:55 PM »

Mleone...mate, big time out for you brother ;D for suggesting a rear headbutt against a sleeper.  The hand is placed on the back of the head which prevents the rear headbutt all together.  Please go to your room for five minutes ;)

You've gotta be quick but yes, you can get out of it.

N
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

mleone

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2006, 02:44:36 PM »

Those suggestion as quoted were not just mine.
The headbutt is before its locked on not during.
Its when the first arm comes around not the second locking arm.
but as quoted those are not just my suggestions but what I have seen.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2006, 02:47:22 PM by mleone »
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #10 on: April 12, 2006, 02:47:16 PM »

well alright then...only a 30 second time out for you ;D
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Kentbob

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2006, 02:58:36 PM »

Let's break this down scientifically.  Early, mid, and late phase counters.  I know Hock has covered this in one of his DVDs, level 6 I wanna say.

The headbutt would have to be an early to mid phase counter, in my estimation.  An eye attack could be early to mid.  Biting the arm as it snakes around would probably have to be early to mid as well.  Grabbing the testacles, mid to late.  Stomping on the foot, probably mid.  Getting a hand in between the arm and neck, early.  Push him backwards into a wall would have to be late, provided your not on the ground, obviously.  The knife would probably have to be an early to mid phase counter, as it could take more than 7 seconds for you to access, open, and deal enough damage to make him let go.  Another early phase counter could be to just go completely limp as you feel it being applied.  I don't know how well this would work, but I know it does work against certain grappling moves, and the rear naked could be one of those.

Just some thoughts.  Good post, Mario.  Good discussion everyone.

Kent
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mleone

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2006, 03:41:48 PM »

Damn good breakdown!
Ninors humor is always welcome and uplifting!

That was a great break down!
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2006, 04:13:22 PM »

Alright, try my favourite which has worked many times...assuming the sleeper is standard righ arm round the neck and left hand on the back of the head....

Reach up with your right hand and tuck two middle fingers into the crook of his elbow and pull downwards.  This will give you a very temporary respite and, while it's not much, it beats doing nothing with the right.  Now reach up with your left hand and grab one of his fingers of the hand that's pushing on the back of your head and peel that hand off.  If you keep peeling you can pull the left arm straight over your left shoulder joint with his arm upside down i.e. he's in a position to break his arm at the elbow joint in this position (like a shoulder throw in Judo with the arm inverted - as it was originally intended in ju-jutsu)  Once it's out straight, grab it with both left and right hands at the wrist and break his arm.

The 2nd version is just to grab his right arm with both of yours and do a shoulder throw i.e. shoot your arse backwards, snap forwards and dip your right shoulder.  99.9 percent of the population will let you go as his feet leave the ground and he flips over onto his back.  If he's trained (and remember most mugs aren't) get ready to flip over with him.  It's not as good as the throw but the nice part is he lands on his back on the bricks and you land on top of him.  Never had anyone still hang on after that.  (I've seen one guy hang on during that ride in a competition but he did that on a matted training floor - I doubt he could have pulled it off in a gravel parking lot or other hard surface)

Anyway 2 to play with that have always worked for me

N
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Kentbob

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2006, 05:37:11 PM »

Alright, try my favourite which has worked many times...assuming the sleeper is standard righ arm round the neck and left hand on the back of the head....

Reach up with your right hand and tuck two middle fingers into the crook of his elbow and pull downwards.† This will give you a very temporary respite and, while it's not much, it beats doing nothing with the right.† Now reach up with your left hand and grab one of his fingers of the hand that's pushing on the back of your head and peel that hand off.† If you keep peeling you can pull the left arm straight over your left shoulder joint with his arm upside down i.e. he's in a position to break his arm at the elbow joint in this position (like a shoulder throw in Judo with the arm inverted - as it was originally intended in ju-jutsu)† Once it's out straight, grab it with both left and right hands at the wrist and break his arm.

The 2nd version is just to grab his right arm with both of yours and do a shoulder throw i.e. shoot your arse backwards, snap forwards and dip your right shoulder.† 99.9 percent of the population will let you go as his feet leave the ground and he flips over onto his back.† If he's trained (and remember most mugs aren't) get ready to flip over with him.† It's not as good as the throw but the nice part is he lands on his back on the bricks and you land on top of him.† Never had anyone still hang on after that.† (I've seen one guy hang on during that ride in a competition but he did that on a matted training floor - I doubt he could have pulled it off in a gravel parking lot or other hard surface)

Anyway 2 to play with that have always worked for me

N

In my experience, the over the shoulder throw takes a lot of practice to make work.  If you don't get the mechanics just right, you end up with someone who is choking you while on your back.  No good!  I know this because guys will come up behind me and try to slip the rear naked on.  They do stop once you start to send them over your shoulder.  But if you just hoist them up on your back, not so much.

Quote
Damn good breakdown!
Ninors humor is always welcome and uplifting!

That was a great break down!

Thanks Mario.  Very much appreciated.

Kent
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2006, 06:07:34 PM »

that's interesting...I've always found it the easiest throw to both teach and do.
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Professor

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #16 on: April 12, 2006, 07:02:35 PM »

that's interesting...I've always found it the easiest throw to both teach and do.


Got to go with Ninor.  This one is not difficult.   Stop me at a seminar and I'll show you a half-dozen different variations that work in less than 6-7 seconds(that's forever).


This one has some NASTY, NASTY variations.....




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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Kentbob

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #17 on: April 12, 2006, 08:39:16 PM »

To be clear, we are talking about what in judo is known as an ippon-sei-nage?  It is easy to learn, getting the mechanics exactly right in the heat of the moment has always been difficult for me.

Kent
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2006, 10:49:18 PM »

modified ippon mate.  Remember, the hard part of an ippon seoinage is setting it up.   In this case the dimwit has done that part for you by grabbing you from behind.  Dead simple amigo.

N
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Joe Hubbard

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2006, 03:01:48 AM »

With any of these counters to chokes, full nelsons, other locks and captures, you have got to ask yourself- how the hell did you get yourself in this position in the first place?† Oh, itís good to know some options because as always knowledge is power, but sensitivity plays a big part in a street encounter.

Once I was chasing five guys out of a bar and one circled around me.† Due to the chaos I didnít notice this until I felt an arm slithering around my neck.† The moment I felt this I turned, anchored his neck and took this guy out with some elbow strikes.

The other issue about countering a choke is the way everybody trains them by instantly tapping out.† A good example is standing triangle chokes, which are pretty close to useless in regard to choking them out.† They hurt because they primarily work as cranks.† Nevertheless most people will tap when they feel discomfort.† You need to practice by finding out just how long you can take the choke.† In many cases there are many who are even trained who canít put the choke on properly.†

Ciao

Joe
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J.T. Hurley

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #20 on: April 15, 2006, 02:11:35 PM »

The only time I had someone try for a RNC during a "real" fight, I tucked my chin and he jammed his forearm into my mouth.

From a blood-borne illness standpoint, what I did next was probably risky to the point of stupid, but it solved the immediate problem.

Be safe,

J
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Hock

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2010, 08:59:33 AM »

While up in Canada, I learned that corrections folks no longer teach or learn escapes from rear chokes. Admin advised that these chokes are no statistically happening, so there is no training for it.

Hock

Webby

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2010, 07:41:54 AM »

I was always told '' First, make no worse ! ''. Chin in and down. Then use whatever physical skills you have been training with.

I'm with Joe H, don't get yourself in this spot in the first place.

I've been to many class's and school's over the year's and I have very rarely ever seen student's watching there back went sparring or going one-to-one. It's not the guy you have pinned to the wall you have to worry about, it's his mate with half a house brick behind you who is about to show you a brand new style of hat.

In a real set to strike and move.

Stay safe.

Webby..

         
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Crafty

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #23 on: May 11, 2010, 03:29:47 PM »

early counter dont get put in one

mid counter lethal tactic

late cheat play dead

delay as much as possible keeping a good posture and position stamping in his feet and ankles if possible level one advice hoch unarmed combative knees and ankles awesome or you could shoot him that works everytime use whats avalible at the present moment.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 03:44:40 PM by Crafty »
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cfadeftac

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #24 on: May 11, 2010, 11:03:41 PM »



When I did some seminars with a Judo guy years ago he always choked on the windpipe, hurt like hell and went on alot faster than the sleeper, he said these were legal in judo and no one had died from the windpipe chokes in competition that he knew of.

Andrew
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EpicThought

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2010, 11:29:15 PM »

How about stepping one foot behind them and lifting them up from the knee area, then violently throwing yourself to your back. I also like going for the fingers but for me that doesn't work as often. I have trouble seeing how anyone could think that you can't get out of late phase rear naked choke. It doesn't always work, but then I personally don't have any techniques that work against everyone I train with everytime.
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Canuk

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2010, 09:53:44 AM »

While up in Canada, I learned that corrections folks no longer teach or learn escapes from rear chokes. Admin advised that these chokes are no statistically happening, so there is no training for it.

Hock

Was that Club Fed or a jail?
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Wardog

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2010, 08:51:58 AM »

 I show my 16 year old daughter things whenever she asks. When she was younger I taught her to drop her chin the minute she felt an arm around her neck from behind. She still drops it instinctually to this day. Of course, there are ways to get the chin back up but they hurt and she hates them, so I don't do it.
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whitewolf

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2010, 09:54:38 AM »

Epic-i dont think that will work  lifting them up by the knees-if the attacker is a average sized man and the victim is a women or small man/teenager-thats a lot of weight to try and lift especially if he drops his weight on your back area as he tightens the hold-
also he is pulling you back and his leverage is on his side-JMHO WW
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JimH

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Re: Rear Naked Choke
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2010, 11:23:36 AM »

If you can step behind ,from the outside,drive your knee into the back of the attackers knee,if they are pulling back and they lose balance they may let go or relax enough to get your head out.
(you can also snake your hand in front of their face and drive the head back while the knee drives forward)

If you snake your leg in from the inside,between the legs,grape vine it /wrap it around the attackers leg and throw yourself back,again that may loosen their hold.
(again you may also sllide your hand in front of their face and drive it back)

If when the hold is applied you step to the left or right,moving both legs off center,drive your butt back,hammer fist the groin and turn your head into the opening you may get out.

You can also stomp into the front of the attackers knee,driving it back.
Stomp or kick into the side of the leg ,inside or outside,and drive down.

Loads can be done,it all depends on the skill of the attacker and of the victim.
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