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Author Topic: J.B.L Noel  (Read 1414 times)

Hock

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J.B.L Noel
« on: November 27, 2004, 04:52:23 AM »

Anyone ever heard of JBL Noel?

He is a British Officer and WW 1 vet who shot a lot of the enemy with a pistol.
In the 1920's he taught small-arms, point-shooting to the British Military.
His first book on point-shooting and the automatic pistol was published in 1918. Re-published in WWII.

Quite a bit word-for-word with the Sykes/Fairbairn/Applegate pointshooting doctrine...only one thing...Noel was...first. Way first.

Hock

KAVU

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2004, 09:08:45 AM »

"The Automatic Pistol" by Noel was just reissued by Paladin Press.

Noel wrote three books on pistol shooting. "how to shoot with a revolver" came out in 1918. "the automatic pistol" in 1919. and a 2nd edition "how to shoot with a revlver" in 1942.

Another excellant resource is Captain Tracy [foget his first name]. He was another Brit army officer who wrote two books on revolver shooting.

There's an article by Dennis Martin entitled the "iron hand of war" that covers some stuff regarding WWII point shooting.
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Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2004, 10:29:25 AM »

Yes, the Dennis Martin book is about the WWII Applegate//Fair-Sykes shooting. I wonder if he mentions Noel as the pioneer so many insiders report him to be?

Point shooting itself doesn't interest me as much as...and what I find interesting is...wouldn't/shouldn't Noel be the so-called "father of point-shooting then, and not the WW II guys? At least in terms of British history? Seems like Noel beat them to the publishing draw at least, by some 20 years?

Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2004, 02:04:06 PM »

Brit military point shooting is documented as far back as the 1907 Woodhouse book.

Following Woodhouse was Tracy, then Noel, then Fairbairn and Sykes. Grant-Taylor was another contemporary of Fairbairn and Sykes who was teaching similar point shooting methods during the war and later in Palestine.

The reason Fairbairn and Sykes get so much credit is simply because their book was more available and because more American troops were introduced to their material both in Shanghai and through Applegate.


And here are some links to discussions of JBL Noel.

http://www.selfdefenseforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7850

« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 04:20:56 PM by Hock »
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Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2004, 09:21:15 AM »

Thanks for that list of names.
So next, the question I wonder is....

Who are the REAL WWII Gods?
The true gods. These WWII replicants? Or the original people that came well before them.

Do all the WWII God followers also revere these WWI originals?
Or just kind of ignore them. Mention them briefly and ignore them?

Next question? The hand-to-hand material? The palm heel, the knee...wasn't all that done well before WWII in the British Military also?

Hock

Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2004, 01:19:18 PM »

You said,"
he reason Fairbairn and Sykes get so much credit is simply because their book was more available and because more American troops were introduced to their material both in Shanghai and through Applegate.

Was that kind of a typo? About so many Americans being introduced to them in Shanghai?

Hock

lakerssportsfan

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2004, 04:28:09 PM »

Do all the WWII God followers also revere these WWI originals?
Or just kind of ignore them. Mention them briefly and ignore them?

Next question? The hand-to-hand material? The palm heel, the knee...wasn't all that done well before WWII in the British Military also?

As I posted elsewhere

Many of the big names and lesser names of WWII hand-to-hand were active long before the second world war but only became famous through it.

Many of them had training in Judo and JuJitsu and adopted the most applicable JuJitsu and Judo atemi/striking techniques which included things like knees, chops and palm strikes, chokes, some simple throws. Then they went on and taught others who went forward with these techniques as a big part of their sylabus.

Why are you so interested in the "WWII God followers?"
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KAVU

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2004, 10:44:03 PM »

re: americans in shanghai

Not a typo. US Marines stationed in Shanghai prior to WWII. O'neall, of the "O'neal system" being most famous example. Also, US Marine [Yeaton] was heavily involved in the knife design that beacme the sykes-fairbairn.
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Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2004, 11:25:35 PM »

Why are you so interested in the WWII God followers?

I, on occassion meet and talk with these folks. Some tend to belittle, discard and sometimes verbally attack ANYBODY who doesn't exactly worship at the WWII alter. I just find that fascinating...

I am fascinated by how deeply, cult-like and in some cases-blind, some of these guys embrace the whole Fairbairn/Sykes thing, especially when it seems they might be aware of, and surrounded by, other solid and notable British sources that pre-date the duo. It is fascinating that such a timely published book would create this almost religious movement in the midst of all these other sources.

I read a great article on O'Neil in the Asian Journal a few years back. His whole life story. 

I also have a Marine training manual from the 1920s with palm strikes, knees, elbows and eye jabs and more in it. I also have an college ROTC textbook I bought at a used bookstore. It has care and shooting of the .45 in it (some pointshooing talk ) and the usual eye jabs, palm strikes, etc. from the 1920's. Great, old fashioned illustrations in it.

I am mildly fascinated with why these 1920 sources are ignored and 1940's sources get all hubub.
 
Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2004, 01:15:48 AM »

The Fairbairn/Sykes material predates the 1940 publishing of shooting to live. They were working in Shanghai from the early 1900s until the 1940s. Most of the development of material was prior to WWII. And one of them (Fairbairn maybe?} was a WWI vet. Both were past retirement age when they went back into military service in the 40s. I think it is a false disticntion to talk about the "WWII gods" in contrast to the earlier material. The WWII material was directly linked to the material from the first war. Somepeople may choose to be ignorant of the history, but that is on them, as it always is.

Re: blind cultlike followers-- They occur in every field of endeavor, don't they? Regardless of validity, regardless of applicability, regardless of common sense.

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lakerssportsfan

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2004, 03:20:13 AM »

Sykes was in the British Army in WWI. Fairbairn served in the royal Marines from around 1900 to 1906 or so, according to an article in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

I read that bio on O'Neil in the magazine which Hock mentioned. O'Neil was one of Fairbairn's proteges.  As was Rex Applegate who wrote Kill or Be Killed.  Col Anthony Biddle also trained with Fairbairn as well as other people. One of Biddles protogees was John Styers who wrote Cold Steel.

The same magazine that ran the bio on O'Neil had a bio on Fairbairn in 1997 listed as volume 6 number 2 - 1997.

Fairbairn was teaching both unarmed combat and point shooting in Shanghai before WWII or even WWI. According to the article in JAMA--he was promted to sergeant and musketry and drill instructor with the Shanghai Municipal police in 1910.

I think it is a matter of his best known and still in print work coming from the WWII era.  He started long before this.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2004, 03:25:48 AM by lakerssportsfan »
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Trembula

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2004, 02:45:02 AM »

With regards to the Marine Corps side of the "Combatives" history, please refer back to my article in CQC Magazine. Unfortunately I am too busy right now to dig through my files, but I will when I get the chance and address some of the points brought up here.

Real quick though... Fairbairn and Biddle never hit it off... they met once and did not get along. Biddle was a fan of "defendu" but you could find every "defendu" technique he used in any JuJitsu system of the era. I do not consider Styers to be a protege' of Biddle - what he practiced was sort of a "Biddle Method Concepts" akin to JKD Concepts today. In everything I have read about Biddle, he never mentions Styers and the heir apparent to the Biddle Method was Stephen Stavers, who was unfortunately killed in 1944 in the Pacific (not too long after that Biddle was felled by a stroke which left him bedridden for the remainder of his life) and it is thus in 1944 that the Biddle Method peaked.

Dan
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lakerssportsfan

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2004, 12:24:51 PM »

Biddle makes reference to Fairbairns Defendu in his book Do or Die.
It is also mentioned in his bio titled My Philadelphia Father.
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Hock

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2004, 02:17:38 PM »

Why my fascination with the WWII crowd? OK! Here is the inside dirty laundry!

Back in the 1990’s I wrote an article for some magazine and I cannot recall which one. It might have been Black Belt, and for interest they asked me to hit upon a few different topics and talking points and they asked me to make sure I talked about Rex Applegate! OK, I said. I spoke well of him.
 
In this article, I was quite proud that so much of the military, WWII combatives material came from two cops, Shanghia’s Sykes and Fairbairn. Being an ex-cop, I felt like that was quite an accomplishment. I said something in this article like… “remember, it all came from just cops.” Words like that. It was a message that the world had better listen to us “little-old” cops about fighting because we know some things. Hurray for the police for having all this effect-was my message. 

I immediately got a little hate mail. Who was I to even dare to write about Rex Applegate?…was the theme. (Actually, Tom Barnhart and I have met Applegate and have spoken with him, a total of maybe three hours. Tom much longer. We grilled him on many subjects. Months later, he died.)

A few years later I was cruising the internet and came upon a article actually titled-“Just Cops.” It was about the positive accomplishments of Sykes and Fairbairn. I thought maybe someone had picked up the ball I started and ran with it. I read the whole thing, thought it was interesting, and never thought about it again. (Little did I realize that the article was actually written in retaliation to me.)

Then through the years later I discovered that I was literally hated by some WWII followers. Some of my certified instructors, who also did WWII systems, sent me letters of resignation, along with apologies, as they were forced by social pressures to disavow me. One WWII guy went absolutely berserk on a popular forum, tearing me apart. It was so full of hatred, curses and inexcusable remarks they banned him from that forum and others.
 
I began to get coustic emails informing me that I couldn’t/shouldn’t use the word combatives because I was not an official, WWII Sykes/Fairbairn practitioner. “You do not do Close Quarter Combatives,” they warned me, “it must come from Sykes and Fairbairn.”

This ugliness went all the way down to New Zealand. I was mysteriously baffled about the sheer hatred. I just had to chalk it up to typical business competition. I seem to fall in and out of the graces of many groups through time. But usually I can put a finger on the problem. This time I couldn’t.

Then someone sent in an email to my friend Steve Zorn a few years ago and quoted to him the sole, out-of context, excised words from that 10-year-old article calling Sykes and Fairbairn “just cops.” Hock said this! Hock said this! He dared call them “just cops.” Zorn told him I meant exactly the opposite. But…it was way too late!

When Zorn told me this, I then I realized that years ago, some insecure knucklehead, (possibly the aforementioned, banned guy?) had misunderstood, misconstrued or purposely changed the meaning of the article by excising that one phrase or line, and then gone on a internet world wind telling every WWII guy on the planet that I had talked bad about their heroes. From Zorn's converstaion, I then understood the "Just Cops" web article, the resignations, the resentments-everything.

And just a month ago, in a foreign country, a man told one of my instructors at a seminar that he simply could not forgive “Hock for calling Sykes and Fairbairn just cops.” Our man tried to explain to him what I have said here...

a) It was complimentary, positive story.
b) Least we forget-I am an ex-cop- I am proud of them and that they had such a positive effect. To call them “just cops” in bad way is too call me “just a cop” and belittle me!

I don’t know what insecure bubblehead started all this lasting trouble for me. He was either too stupid to understand the entire article, or too insecure and afraid someone else might be able to talk about his gods instead of him? Maybe I insulted them by not declaring Sykes and Fairbairn super cops! And by saying just cops instead of super cops I made people 10 years worth of mad? Ten and still counting…I just don’t know.

Still, my name, courses or anything about me is still banned conversation on many WWII talk forums. Which is fine. I don't fit. I do an evolved version of things 60 years old. Anyway, since then, I am mildly fascinated by what motivates the core WW II people. Most of them could care less about me one way or the other. But there lurks a few…

No doubt I will receive more hate mail from this. (HockHoch@aol.com) and I will be happy to share the immature babbling with you here as it comes sailing in, hit and miss…in WWII-like sorties, quite unlike the modern, precision bombing we have evolved into here in the 21st Century.

(Sorry, I guess we'll try to get back to the gun topics ASAP)

Hock

lakerssportsfan

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Re: J.B.L Noel
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2004, 02:42:05 PM »

Wow . . .

A few quick points before I am off to bed.

1. If your own certified instructors will not stand by you under those circumstances then I am sorry, but you are better off without those individuals.

2. It sounds like people misinterpreted what you said in "just cops" sort of like "Jesus was just a carpenter."

3. We see this type of tribalism in the martial arts world all the time within JKD people and within FMA people and people who practice certain Russian martial arts. It is sort of like Serbs hating Croats. Im sorry but I cannot tell a Serb from a Croat.

4. Is this whole one must register to be able to read this forum--to keep these elements out?

I tend to read most forums much and post very little. I managed to miss this vendetta against you or whatever it is.

You wrote -
Quote
One WWII guy went absolutely berserk on a popular forum, tearing me apart. It was so full of hatred, curses and inexcusable remarks they banned him from that forum and others.

Who was this and what forum was this? I imagine it was one of the very silly ones that I dont bother with. I imagine if I named some of them I would get hate mail.

Anyway--I suppose I should be buying the Noel book.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2004, 03:00:35 PM by lakerssportsfan »
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