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Author Topic: List of UFC Fouls  (Read 12127 times)

mleone

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List of UFC Fouls
« on: April 19, 2006, 07:10:24 AM »

UFC Fouls ban the following actions:

1.   Butting with the head.
2.   Eye gouging of any kind.
3.   Biting.
4.   Hair pulling.
5.   Fish hooking.
6.   Groin attacks of any kind.
7.   Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or
laceration on an opponent.
8.   Small joint manipulation. (Fingers)
9.   Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation,
grabbing the trachea.
12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
13. Grabbing the clavicle.
14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent. (This is reality)
15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent. (This is reality)
16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
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fabbe

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2006, 07:58:06 AM »

UFC...? I thought that list was a summary of a groundfighting class with Hock...  ;D

Give or take a few things and it would actually be a pretty solid training program.

/F
« Last Edit: April 19, 2006, 08:02:18 AM by fabbe »
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mleone

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2006, 08:19:15 AM »

I agree this list really puts things into perspective.
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TAC

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2006, 04:12:45 PM »

Pretty much everything we train to do isn't it? One technique I might not be tempted to use though...

"Putting a finger into any orifice"

 ;D
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Milldog1776

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2006, 05:12:22 PM »

Pretty much everything we train to do isn't it? One technique I might not be tempted to use though...

"Putting a finger into any orifice"

 ;D

Depends on who I'm wrestling.   8)
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Professor

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2006, 08:28:33 PM »

Pretty much everything we train to do isn't it? One technique I might not be tempted to use though...

"Putting a finger into any orifice"

 ;D

Depends on who I'm wrestling.   8)

TMI
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Kentbob

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2006, 08:40:34 PM »

Pretty much everything we train to do isn't it? One technique I might not be tempted to use though...

"Putting a finger into any orifice"

 ;D

Depends on who I'm wrestling.   8)

TMI

Right?  Geez.

Kent
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JimH

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2006, 06:14:30 AM »

These rules indicate, to those of us who believe in ending an altercation fast,the prime target areas that we should, and most of us do train.

The people who particptae in these sport based arts abide by these ,or similar,rules and they DO NOT train to attack these target areas,
Yet
Many of the participants in these sports claim that in a Real encounter they could easily transition into using these target areas with no hesitation.

To me ,if you DO NOT train these attack points when the crap hits the fan you will not be able to start.

We fight as we train and if we train to avoid,avoid we will.

We revert to what we know and Do most often.

If we train in sport all the time and occasionally add in Banned attack points,we will Not go to that which is trained infrequently,we will always go to the most frequently trained and used techniques.

This does not mean a sport fighter may not win an encounter,it means that the encounter will be prolonged and will not have a finish,except a submission.(unless the participants train to have  finishing moves)

As said, we here ,for the most part, train these points and they are first strike zones,this list should be a goals list,a list to be used and followed by those who want to end a real encouinter fast and train them regulalrly.



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Wardog

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2006, 06:29:34 AM »

Conversely then, if you train all these deadly finishing moves will you not automatically resort to them in a less than life threatening situation and then have a heck of a time in court. If a sport guy can't add a kick to the head or an eye jab all of a sudden, can you just drop it if the situation doesn't warrant it?  A guy pushes you at a sporting event and you crush his windpipe automatically, as your finely tuned, instinctual, unalterable training has taught you to do. Just playing devil's advocate, as usual.
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mleone

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2006, 06:41:56 AM »

Does any one else want to reply to this? Arnold, Shane, Rawhide? Id love to hear feedback.
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TAC

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 06:43:06 AM »

I'd probably agree with you to an extent wardog. I got quite into MMA and realized it was leaking into my reality training. With bad results. On the other hand i've been thinking that maybe i should add some more less-than-lethal techniques to my training. I was being asked the classing questions by a non-fighter about "what would you do if..." and my friend pointed out that all my answers ("I would probably do this...") were pretty hardcore and may be unjustified.

Hmmm... good thing i'm attending Joe Hubbard's reality-based joint crank, choke, control and contain seminar. I don't wanna be eye gouging uncle Jim next time he gets drunk at the family BBQ. I guess it's a good thing I don't have kids too :)

Sharif
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Rawhide

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2006, 06:58:03 AM »

As usual Wardog, you show ignorance in training regime.  We train with these techniques inclusive to our training not exclusive.  That being the case, in regards to Sharif, I totally disagree.  Whereas these technqiues are in our arsenal, they are reserved for those situations that require it.  Bar fight? Nah.  In-law scuffle? Nah... Home invasion?  You betcha...  Assaulted during a night on the town - err.... maybe.

The fact that these technqiues are available expands our ability to contain a situation - a good old slap with a palm heel to the gonads usually gets a mans attention (even with groin protection) to grab and twist (if warranted)demands a more serious response.  Its all about how one trains we train (hopefully) from prention all the way up the spectrum to kill and everything in between so we can meet the threat the most reasonable amount of force to eliminate it.
 
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mleone

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2006, 07:02:39 AM »

Right Rawhide, The level of force received often determines the level of force given. We deliver slightly more than what we receive.

Any one else want to reply? Positive yet Constructive input?
Any one?


« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 07:08:01 AM by mleone »
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fabbe

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2006, 07:04:06 AM »

Conversely then, if you train all these deadly finishing moves will you not automatically resort to them in a less than life threatening situation and then have a heck of a time in court. If a sport guy can't add a kick to the head or an eye jab all of a sudden, can you just drop it if the situation doesn't warrant it?

If the situation doesn't warrant the use of such techniques, it is probably not a life-threatening, high-stress, high-adrenaline situation. Hopefully, you'll then be able to select the appropriate level of force on a more conscious level - not so much depending on your reflexive responses and "muscle memory".

But, as you said, if you ONLY train to crush windpipes and gouge eyes - and nothing else - then you WILL probably do that in a fight - even in a low-stress, low-adrenaline situation. That's why you have to have a continuum of different responses - from joint locks and unarmed control/contain techniques to armed responses, "quick kills" and - in the worst case scenario - fingers into orifices... :)

You train to use that force necessary to survive and win. If you've only trained at the "lesser force" end of the continuum (sports fighting) - how can you then escalate the force when the situation requires it?

/F
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Shane

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2006, 07:29:51 AM »

UFC is sport entertainment bottomline. That still doesnt mean that your average UFC fighter won't be able to kick the snot out a lot of people on the street but against a skilled dirty tactic fighter or mulitple opponents or weapons it would be alot more difficult to survive than someone who has trained in reality based fighting and I think no one can deny that. I like the UFC and Pride watch them all the time but as far as it being reality I beg to differ, but on that same token it is alot more real than your typical boxing match. The UFC fouls are the meat and potatoes of reality hand to hand combat.  But it still fun as hell to watch, except when all they are doing is jujitsu I like to see them box it out for awhile. Whats ya'lls pick for the upcoming Matt Hughes vs. Royce Gracie match. I want Hughes to win big cant wait to watch that.  :)
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Rawhide

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2006, 08:06:35 AM »

Its gonna be a cracker!
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Wardog

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2006, 08:20:40 AM »

I don't think I showed any ignorance. Devil's advocate generally means putting out a position you don't neccessarily think is the case but will require someone to position themselves.

 Now, I agree that one can have a fully loaded arsenal and not resort to eye-gouges and windpipe stomps for an In-law brawl. But I also believe that many people trained in eye-gouges etc will hesitate in the crunch because blinding someone is a psychotic action. I really think someone psychologically would be more prepared to kill someone in self-defense than blind them. That the eye gouge, when required, will not be acted upon unless it is absolute life and death. Even then. But still, a sport guy has fingers, can step on a throat, gouge eyes, do any of the aforementioned and probably attain better position in which to do it from.  If you could get Chuck Liddell in a position of life and death to begin with, I am sure he would stick his finger in your eye as quick as need be, should it come to that. If he was willing to blind the guy. A person who can blind or curb stomp someone without hesitation is probably already in jail or should be.

 On a battlefield, sure, this may be done without hesitation. A trained martial artist on the street is going to have a lawyer up his ass and a guy looking for support and a dog for life because he can't see. Train in it all you like, nothing wrong with that, but if that's is the big plan and you can't finish because of an attack of conscience, then you are toast.

 I would also like to say that the guys on this site seem much more well rounded than some of the other militia/RBSD, everything is a death move guys.
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Wardog

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2006, 08:24:12 AM »

 Again, I disagree that at the UFC level any practitoner has to worry about a bar fight. No beer drinking guy who kicks people in the nuts is going to hand a UFC guy his ass. Sorry. Won't happen!
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mleone

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2006, 08:45:54 AM »

Does any one else want to comment on rawhides response?
Any one? Any one? Any one? Bueller Bueller? Fry? Fry?
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Rawhide

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2006, 09:02:05 AM »

I'm afraid you know little about eye strikes then, WD.  A strike to the eye is more a distraction due to it being very painful only a deliberate attack to the eyes will cause blindness.  Had it happen last night.  Two of my students where tusseling and one git eye smacked - ended the thing right there.  So, no its not psychotic and its not unreasonable at most levels until you get to the person who's going to use it as a blinder.  The unless he/she IS psychotic its unnecessary. 

Common sense and proper training.
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Shane

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2006, 09:26:31 AM »

Hughes vs Gracie who's going to take it?  Come on ya'll got to have some opinion.  :)
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Wardog

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2006, 09:40:01 AM »

 Yes Rawhide, I know nothing. You are right. In a life and death situation, multipe or weaponed attackers you are just looking to graze the eye. To cause temporary discomfort. Not only will you, in a highly charged street battle, have the marksmanship to hit the eye, you will have the self-control to simply graze it.  Got ya.  My whole take on street defense just went out the window.

  Hughes is my pick to win.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 10:31:16 AM by Wardog »
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JimH

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2006, 11:08:22 AM »

A UFC fighter is a high level competitor,who has trained in Sport,so his first response will be sport.
(this does not mean he will not win,but the odds are that he will make it a prolonged fight)

If the sport competitor does not or has not trained in the use of banned techniques He/She will not use them,as they are not trained into his skills path way.
( Renzo Gracie and Lee Murray come to mind as competitive fighters who did not fair well in street altercations,both men are good at what they do ,sport,and we see that they did not transition sport to street)

Again the SD trainer is fighting the competitive level UFC guy,what about the SD guy fighting the average MMA/NHB,UFC wanna be,what are the chances then?

There are levels of escalation in any fight or altercation,from verbal to conflict/contact of varying degrees:
we can have contact(sport) where nothing serious will happen,
to limited which if a fight in which injury is possible,
to unlimited contact in which Serious injury and death are possible,
a good trainer is able to figure out what level of resposne is appropriate.

When we speak of eye and throat attacks we can employ them at all levels,just vary the intensity.

If in a Bar and some one pushes me and gets loud and blocks my exit,can I grab his/her arm and push them to a wall and put a hand on their throat without choking them?
Yes.
Can I do the same with an face/eye attack to them, by just rubbing myhand and fingers over their eyes?
Yes

When the level escalates to loud verbal,blocking my exit and pushing me or getting into some attack posture,can I do the same move and squeeze the throat a little,or just push the trachea sideways a bit to get them to cough and realize I can go further?
Yes
can I put my fingers over or on some ones eyes and make limited contact to cause a low level of pain?
yes

When it escalates to Unlimited loud verbal,blocking my exit,to physical assault ,to perhaps a weapon introduced such as a Broken bottle ot pool stick or something else, can I do the same move and now use a web strike ,spear hand or trach twist to stop the opponent from continuing?
Yes
can I now stike my fingers in their eyes or claw them to where they cover up and are perhaps temporarily blinded ?
Yes

Do we train other tools and develop other skills? yes.
We are not limited,many of us cross train in similar distancing arts as UFC fighters,we just have the ability to use so called banned technique/ attacks that sport fighters stay away from because if they trained them and it became response instead of thought and they mess up and do it in the ring they are disqualified or penalized.

Again,if a UFC fighter attacks me on the street,I will take my style of fighting to him and then we will see the winner.

Who is willing to take the punishment and do what needs to be done to END the conflict.
More survival mindset than sport mindset.

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Rawhide

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2006, 11:11:28 AM »

Ah, shame WD.  Sorry to rile ya up! ;D  I didn't say anything about you knowing nothing about eye strikes just that it really takes a concentrated effort to pull off a blinding one.

Your sarcasm is amusing  ;D
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TAC

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2006, 12:12:53 PM »




But, as you said, if you ONLY train to crush windpipes and gouge eyes - and nothing else - then you WILL probably do that in a fight - even in a low-stress, low-adrenaline situation. That's why you have to have a continuum of different responses - from joint locks and unarmed control/contain techniques to armed responses, "quick kills" and - in the worst case scenario - fingers into orifices... :)


/F

This is the point I was trying to make by the way folks...
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Ed Stowers

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2006, 01:24:39 PM »

This all kind of presupposes a Pavlovian response for deadly force, and I really haven't seen that except in certain modern weapons training systems that use high capacity autos.  Granted, it's possible--though not very probable--that you coudl react in a sudden threat with a lethal reaciton move based on training in your muscle memory provided the attack was so sudden and scary that you didn't have time to think and your body just reacted.  That is, IF all you ever trained were lethal moves, but who really does that?.  I think actually carrying out lethal hand-to-hand moves is often a lot harder than most people give it credit for in the H2H area.  It's not as easy as pulling a trigger in most cases.  Because of that, you almost always have more time to think about a lethal response, and that's probably a good thing.

But it also points to scenario training.  In terms of lethal force, it is as important to know when NOT to use it as it is when to use it.  This become extremely apparent in gun combat training.  That's because the responses there must be (a) correct and (b) fast.  With firearms, the threat is usually sudden and instantly deadly.  In pure H2H self-defense, those conditions are usually not as frantic because the threat is somewhat less lethal and can't close the gap as quickly in terms of a timed response (nobody's punch or kick outruns a bullet). 

However, you generally react with or without lethal force based upon the type of threat presented.  In gun training, it is the shoot-or-don't shoot scenarios that allow you to get up to speed on this.  Some is muscle memory (like take cover), but what to shoot is usually conscious.  I think it's a better strategy in "chunking" up your categories as lethal or non-lethal training responses rather than, say, hand-to-hand, knife, gun, whatever.  I mean, if the response needed is a lethal one, then you do whatever it takes to be lethal, preferrably with your most powerful weapon firrst.  In less-than-lethal situations, you graduate up the continuum of force.  But once a lethal response is needed, it's lethal, period.  That means even if you are Mr. Super-Deadly Shaolin Kung Fu Ninja Master Level 99, if a lethal response is called for and you have a gun or a knife, you use that because it is always a better choice for lethal force than your hands--IF you have the option.  The empty hands are a LAST resort in a lethal situation.  Yet, to know what to do if you find yourself in this situation, you need to practice it.  But the decision to use lethal force is and always should be a conscious one; it should never be an unconscious one.  Having said that, it usually is, especially in H2H scenarios.  Very few of these H2H things happen so fast that our physical reactions are lethal without any cognition.

Now, I do believe that all H2H situations are potentially lethal.  But in saying so, I'm talking about accidents, not intent. Your causal palm heel to the groin MIGHT be fatal, depending on what the person does when he gets hit (e.g., doubles over face-first into a car bumper, etc.).  But when we talk in terms of using deadly force, I think most of us agree it's "intended" with the ful lknowledge that the technique or whatever is intended or is likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.  We're not talking about accidents.

The idea that you can train lethal force techniques at a Pavlovian level would seem logical, but in my experience it just doesn't work that way.  With very easy to use weapons, maybe.  But in H2H it is harder than most people think when you actually want to do it.  What usually breeds the idea that you can be a walking timebomb H2H fighter is accidents, where someone died from something that wasn't intended to cause death but ended up doing so.  In almost all cases among the professionals, lethal force is a very conscious choice.  It is almost always forced upon you, and you make it regrettably, but with no other choice, but YOU make the decision. 

If you only trained in lethal techiques, but still understood use of force ROE, it still wouldn't happen in a Pavlovian manner, because you'd avoid the situation or not fight until deadly force was finally required.  BUT, if you never train any lethal force techniques and only train sport, then you might not know how to do it, or you might only have sporting (nonlethal) techniques in your toolbox. 

It's very easy, for example, to say you'll stick your fingers in someone's eyes and do this or that.  But unless you've actually done it, then you'll truly never know.  You will always cause a tearing and a blink.  But unless you penetrate deeply, your results may be less than you intended or less than you've been led to believe.  The eye, for example, is pretty resistant to damage, and it rolls around and is hard to pin.  It can be damaged and it cannot be toughened, but it is still harder than you'd think at first glance.  And most people have a natural aversion to squishing other people's eyeballs into jelly.  That means if you manage to do it--and it wasn't sheerly by accident--then it was premeditated and that you've likely had some training to do it.

So, I think the real problem is not one of having auto-responses that may be lethal.  It's possible, of course, but very unlikely.  By far, the more common problem is sports-only training that never incorporates this level at all; that is, having sports-based auto-responses that do not do the damage required.  Most people don't really want to do serious lethal force H2H anyway, and many shy away from it even in training, which makes intentional use of such techniques difficult to sink into the student's toolkit even when it is desired...and virtually impossible in those who only take a sports-based approach.  I know of no one who trains only lethal force, however.  Even soldiers have non-lethal situations to deal with.

The more tools you have in the kit, the greater your flexibility in your response and the more options you have.  It's usually necessary to factor in scenario training to determine the right tool for the job.

Gee, Mario, I don't know if that helped or hurt as far as what you wanted.  I'm rambling now.  Nice list though.  It's a good list to incorporate to make sure you have some of the more serious tools.   ;D
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Kentbob

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2006, 01:28:19 PM »

I'm kinda tired of the Gracies.  Go Matt Hughes.

Kent
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JimH

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2006, 03:26:11 PM »

The versatility of the human eye.

The human eye can,for the most part take a good hit,it can be pushed back into the head,it is fairly hard to cause severe permanent damage to.

We can hit them and get a reaction
We can swipe at them and perhaps scratch the cornea
we can push them in
we can even penetrate them with glass and metal and they may survive and return to full function.
We can even pop them out and as long as they are not severed they maybe replaced in the head and maybe function properly

They are fairly hard.
Ever eat an animals eyeball?
Pretty hard to break between your teeth.

The eyeball can take some real punishment( for the most part and depending upon the person),but the idea of attacking them is not to destroy them,but to cause a hesitation,a pause or a stop and cover by the person we do it to,so we can get away  or follow up.

People rely on vision and breathing,remove one or both aspects  and you have gained compliance .
                               
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fabbe

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2006, 04:24:52 PM »

Quote
We can even pop them out and as long as they are not severed they maybe replaced in the head and maybe function properly

http://www.break.com/movies/eyepoke.html

/F
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mleone

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Re: List of UFC Fouls
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2006, 05:40:23 PM »

What happens when you punch a ball?
Answer : Your hand travels around the ball from either right or left. Because of its roundness dynamics.

An eye attack is the same. Your finger will travel either right or left around the eyeball. Within the sockett.
But you could scratch the cornea on the way.

How do I know this?
Very simply my best friend is an eye doctor and he has seen these injuries all the time.
He says puncturing the eye almost never happens when the finger goes in.
He said it goes around the eye. Usually scratches the cornea on the way or may not.

Let me see if I can get some info and photos and post them in regards to eye attacks.
I aim for the bridge of the nose in order for fingers to travel into the eye at best.
What people dont understand is the hand can be in the eye area and not penetrate (very disruptive mentally)
99 percent of people dont like or appreciate hands in their eye area. Its psychologically disheartning.

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