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Author Topic: how whould students survive High school shootings  (Read 4813 times)

Irishtacticts

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how whould students survive High school shootings
« on: April 19, 2006, 07:09:05 PM »

 I being a High schooler have been worried (and in conteplation) about how to survive a high school shooting. friday is the anevarsary and tomorrow is the last day of school this week. thus if a mad kid comes to school and starts unloading, what would be the best retreat strategy for the student populace especially the target students in the bunch.

i hate to be a sitting duck in this situation.

I am in worried that this one kid is going to target me. I plan on telling my councelor. but a individual strategy would be awsome.
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Irishtacticts

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2006, 07:16:25 PM »

I am planning on the worse and head working on some of my killing techniques and pistol disarms but ide rather run. then again im not superman i need some tactics. any sugestions. I hate hiding but if i have to it will be to get in close to the shooter.
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Professor

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2006, 08:26:51 PM »



I am in worried that this one kid is going to target me. I plan on telling my councelor.




Talk to your counselor and get the person some help.   Let your parent know and get involved.   

Get out of the school if it happens.  Kids have no business getting involved.   Let the professionals work it out.


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Kentbob

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2006, 08:39:42 PM »

Take it from one who has had bullets fly past him, bro.  Don't try and close the distance.  It won't work like you think it might.  If you want an exit strategy, just rehearse one in your head, as you walk around the school.  But definitely tell a councilor.  Try to get as many of your buddies out as you can, if the merde hits the ventillateur. 


Kent
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Hock

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2006, 12:09:39 AM »

"Don't try to close the distance..."

This is a really loaded line with much to consider, and too broad and good a topic good a topic to be lost at the bottom of this thread.

But if you are just sitting in school somewhere and a guy comes in from  afar with a gun, run, dive and crawl, all three at any time.

It has become...(see the new topic on the gun page...)

Hock
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 12:57:52 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Kentbob

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2006, 04:20:15 AM »

"Don't try to close the distance..."

This is a really loaded line with much to consider, and too broad and good a topic good a topic to be lost at the bottom of this thread.

But if you are just sitting in school somewhere and a guy comes in from  afar with a gun, run, dive and crawl, all three at any time.

It has become...(see the new topic on the gun page...)

Hock

Well, I didn't mean to keep making space, either.  I guess I should have elaborated.  Don't try to close the distance, instead find a covered and concealed route away from the shooter.  I was speaking more about just trying to get up and charge the gunman, but, in my opinion, even trying to hide in ambush is a bad idea when compared to the chance to get away, and help others get away too.  Hiding in ambush would be better than just standing there, or sitting there letting the gunman plug away, but finding a covered and concealed route out of there is the best option, in my professional opinion.  I also think it is important to point out that concealment only makes it so the gunman can't see you.  Cover stops bullets, but a lot of things that you think will stop bullets really won't.  Like tables and desks, for instance.


Kent
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Shane

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2006, 07:49:38 AM »

Working on your killing techniques and pistol disarms in high school damn that sucks. But  that pretty much is the reality today. Do not try  to close the distance, combat is not a movie its real and its ugly any plan you make to stop the shooter will most likely fail in that kind of highly stressful situation it is possible to stop a shooter but the odds will definitely not be in any ones favor do what you can to get out and survive by any means neccesary only as a very last resort should any attempt be made to close the gap with a shooter especially if your not highly trained.
P.S are you involved in any school activities or programs just asking.  :)
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Hock

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2006, 09:50:03 AM »

Often people make long, intense speeches about cover and concealment, and in the end, concealment gets really labeled as bad, very bad and worthless.

Many people, without cover handy, are alive today because they went to concealment. In many cases bad guys have to see you to shoot you.  I worry sometimes that concealment might get such a bad rap that people block the very idea out of their minds. I can recall a shooting where a victim ran behind sheets of landry drying in a laundry line in a yard. The criminal waited until the person emerged from the other side! What? It is a very weird thing.

Anyway,
Of course, I'd rather have cover.
Next, I'd rather have concealment.
Than nothing.

<sort of on the subject of sitting in a cafeteria, I always marvel at, how on a shooting range, shooters sometimes sit at a table. At a whistle, they stand and shoot, and some call this real, advanced combat training, because they were sitting a table?  Why not flip the table? And sort of keep your torso behind it? Who knows what that bad guy is shooting. A .22? A shotgun from long range? Think about that muscle memory. I wonder if the range doesn't want to damage their tables with all this flips, at the muscle memory cost of your life?

Hock
 


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seanross

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2006, 12:12:52 PM »

Suppose I am sitting at a standard school desk with the little compartment full of books, pens, pencils etc.  A guy comes to the door of the classroom with a gun.  No place to hide, except behind other students.  No other exit except through windows.  Choice is to fight or cower and hope he shoots someone else.

What if I grab the table holding it in front of me and charge into the guy with the gun?  Fairly decent chance of deflecting bullets on metal, wood or books in the desk.  How about throwing books and chairs as you close the distance, then grabbing a desk or chair and smashing the fellow?

I have only been shooting for a few years.  I still have not put enough rounds through my pistol to be able to shoot straight without really concentrating on it.  The larger the caliber and the smaller the gun, the more pronounced this effect is, meaning a poorly trained shooter will shoot worse with a .45 than with a .22 --good news for the aggressive defender.  A bad trigger pull can send a round very low or seriously to the right or left.  An untrained shooter faced with flying books, chairs and teaching aids would likely panic just a little and start shooting wildly.  Just how much range time and tactical training would we expect of a high school psychopath?  Even a kid seriously into paintball has likely never had someone throw a desk at him and practice a cool aim.

Second, were I in a classroom and heard gunfire in another classroom, the last thing I would want to do would be to enter the hallway along with everyone else and either get shot or trampled in the panic.  Lock the classroom door, bar it with desks and chairs, cover the window in the door, then figure out how to escape the classroom by another way, exterior windows, through the crawlway above the ceiling tiles etc.  If the shooter attempts to enter, you will have delayed him with your barricade.  Stop trying to escape at that point, put students unwilling to fight in the rear of the room and everybody get quiet and grab a desk or a chair.  If the shooter manages to enter-- throw everything you have on him in waves of two or three.  Once he has been hit and knocked off balance, the two or three most athletic people jump him and take the gun -- or just continue to beat him with chairs, desks and boots.

Finally, there was some advice in a previous post for HS students to let the professionals deal with things.  In the case of the Columbine shootings, this meant staying in a school with two psychopathic killers for several hours.  The main argument for self defense is that the police can't be everywhere and they are responsible for the safety of society, not of any particular individual.  Until the police show up and take the perpetrator into custody, you are on your own.   
 :'(  Hide if you can, but there are only hiding places enough for 5% of a student population.   
:-[ Run if you can, but most schools have central hallway systems with not nearly enough room to handle a mass panic exodus. 
 :-\ If you can't hide and you can't run your choices are to cower or fight.  Hard to know which choice increases your chances of survival.  I figure that I will one day give my life for something - might be old age, might be an accident, might be a disease.  Dying taking out a psychopath seems like a better way of dying than witless in a nursing home, but that is my personal preference.
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Shane

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2006, 12:39:47 PM »

Good question irish. In a perfect world I  myself would want to fight and try to survive and be the hero, but many times heros die and cowards who run survive. I have another question is it morally correct to tell a high school kid to risk thier life and try to stop a gunmen or is it more moral to tell him to run and hide. And another question which would you rather your child or friend or family member do in this type of situation. Very tough. Like the prof said it all depends.
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Kentbob

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2006, 01:23:39 PM »

I agree, seanross, that running into the hallway along with everyone else would not be the preferred course of action.  However, for the determined individual, there are other avenues of escape.  In my school, we had humongous (sp?) windows that opened either to all the way outside, or to a courtyard that would take us to another section of the school, and then outside.  So, in my view, there are many ways of escaping rather than taking the most obvious.  About taking the desk and using it as a ram, that is a good idea, but in my opinion should be a last resort.  However, if you could get a concerted defense going, other people throwing big objects, like books, as you charge the gunman, you would stand a much better chance.  Reflex is to duck when something big and heavy comes flying towards your head.  Just a though.
Hock, I agree that concealment gets denigrated a lot, but that is not what I was trying to do.  I don't know if you interpereted it that way, or not.  Something is always better than nothing, my point was to not hide behind something that is small and flimsy, or try to make your exit around said object.  Somehow you need to keep an eye on the bad guy, while you are trying to decide what to do.  There comes a time where you have to take a chance, and make a break for it, or do something more risky than normal.  In my opinion, it just comes down to being able to weigh the odds.  Can you sneak?  Is it better to go quickly, or slowly?  Moving fast leaves you exposed for less time, but will give away your position sooner.  Moving slowly may not attract attention, but it will leave you exposed for longer.  Again, as the Prof said, its situational.  METT-T dependent, and all that.  An interesting problem, however. 
Shane, I don't really have an answer for your questions.


Kent
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Bri Thai

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2006, 04:24:31 PM »

Just go to a school in the UK.
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Professor

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2006, 04:43:58 PM »

Just go to a school in the UK.


The Dunblane school shooting of 16 children??  ::)

Picking another fight?
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Milldog1776

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2006, 04:48:16 PM »

Just go to a school in the UK.


The Dunblane school shooting of 16 children??  ::)

Picking another fight?

BURN!
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Trainer

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2006, 08:09:24 PM »

"I am in worried that this one kid is going to target me. I plan on telling my councelor. but a individual strategy would be awsome"

If Im reading this right, it would appear that you have reason to believe that you may be a target. The advise that you have recieved here with respect to cover and concealment is good advise. I have a concern however, that, as you believe you may be a target for an active shooter situation, why havent you called the police and voiced your concerns?

I have been in many violent situations involing firearms. It never goes the way you think it will. Lose the tough guy approach and call the police! and stay away from school that day.
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Professor

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2006, 09:32:50 PM »

"I am in worried that this one kid is going to target me. I plan on telling my councelor. but a individual strategy would be awsome"

If Im reading this right, it would appear that you have reason to believe that you may be a target. The advise that you have recieved here with respect to cover and concealment is good advise. I have a concern however, that, as you believe you may be a target for an active shooter situation, why havent you called the police and voiced your concerns?

I have been in many violent situations involing firearms. It never goes the way you think it will. Lose the tough guy approach and call the police! and stay away from school that day.

This is VERY GOOD ADVISE!!!!

Let me again reiterate.....

"Talk to your counselor and get the person some help.   Let your parent know and get involved.   

Get out of the school if it happens.  Kids have no business getting involved.   Let the professionals work it out."
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Trainer

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2006, 09:37:12 PM »

"I am in worried that this one kid is going to target me. I plan on telling my councelor. but a individual strategy would be awsome"

If Im reading this right, it would appear that you have reason to believe that you may be a target. The advise that you have recieved here with respect to cover and concealment is good advise. I have a concern however, that, as you believe you may be a target for an active shooter situation, why havent you called the police and voiced your concerns?

I have been in many violent situations involing firearms. It never goes the way you think it will. Lose the tough guy approach and call the police! and stay away from school that day.


You should listern to this man hes a Prof!
This is VERY GOOD ADVISE!!!!

Let me again reiterate.....

"Talk to your counselor and get the person some help.   Let your parent know and get involved.   

Get out of the school if it happens.  Kids have no business getting involved.   Let the professionals work it out."
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Bri Thai

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #17 on: April 21, 2006, 04:39:21 AM »

Of course we had Dunblane in the UK.  And then the firearms laws were tightened up (unfairly in my view).  But so what?  That is only one, once, and was quite a few years ago now.  Long before that we had Hungerford (he didn't go into a school though).

But the fact remains that these incidents are thankfully so rare over here, despite our lack of the 2nd Ammendment.  That is true, no matter how you try to dress it up.

Burned?  On this?  I rather think not guys. -  ;)
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seanross

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2006, 10:43:58 AM »

Hey Irishtactics!

I saw in the news that a Columbine-copy plot was broken up in Riverton Kansas.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/21/foiled.plot.ap/index.html

 I remember you mentioned going to the Kansas City, MO seminar once.  Is Riverton anywhere close to you?
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Irishtacticts

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2006, 03:46:40 PM »

Yeah im a KC Kid. Nothing happened at my school. I was just a bit parranoid but never the less I felt that this is an important topic for highschool kids to know.
if there could ever be a school program about school shooting survival could be inportant to consider.
but then again i feel that the program would also feed the kids planning the shooting to act uppon the strategys expressed to the kids.

we all have a reality that in some way expresses the need for RBSD. This could be one for highschool kids.

Reality based changes from person to person, no matter who we are we are in danger. from a fight at school to a mugging in town. no ones safe i realy didnt apreceate it un till my little paranoia.

      Irish
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Kentbob

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #20 on: April 21, 2006, 11:18:00 PM »

Yeah im a KC Kid. Nothing happened at my school. I was just a bit parranoid but never the less I felt that this is an important topic for highschool kids to know.
if there could ever be a school program about school shooting survival could be inportant to consider.
but then again i feel that the program would also feed the kids planning the shooting to act uppon the strategys expressed to the kids.

we all have a reality that in some way expresses the need for RBSD. This could be one for highschool kids.

Reality based changes from person to person, no matter who we are we are in danger. from a fight at school to a mugging in town. no ones safe i realy didnt apreceate it un till my little paranoia.

      Irish

"No one is safe" is a little phrase that I always keep in mind, but only to a point.  I agree that it is important to be aware of the date, the significance, and the possibilities of violence no matter what.  However, be that as it may, don't become wrapped up in it.  Enjoy your time, no matter where you are.  Even if it's in school, (and believe me, I know how difficult enjoying your time in school can be.).  You should always be aware, but at the same time, don't succumb to fear.  Hock put out a blog, or maybe it was an article in his newsletter, about this concept.  A certain amount of fear will lead you to be aware.  To much fear will make you paranoid.  Recognize what the possibilities are, as far as violence is concerned, and act accordingly.  But don't be constantly afraid.  Living in fear is not a solution, it just seems like one for a short time.


Kent
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arnold

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Re: how whould students survive High school shootings
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2006, 05:45:27 AM »

GTFO, see previous post
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