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Author Topic: Closing the Distance  (Read 7917 times)

Hock

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Closing the Distance
« on: April 20, 2006, 12:49:55 AM »

"Don't try to close the distance..."

This is a really loaded line with very much to consider.

It has become an everday and thoughless adage in the gun training world to proclaim...get distance. Get and make distance. But really, there is a breaking point in distance between you and shooter where that always "getting distance" idea is an invitation to a bullet. Sims shooting brings this out.

The military deals with rifles and distance. It is often a unique battelfield when compared to most common police and civilian shooting incidents.

If you are really close with the opponent to start with, as with some 40 to 60 per cent of annual police/civilian gun shootings, the only hope you have is to charge in. You either charge, control the his shooting arm and beat the snot out of him; or charge, control the shooting arm and draw and shoot. AND then you must then RIDE THE GUN DOWN so he will not shoot you on the way down. This entire episode is a one-handed shoot. If you are brain-washed to always shoot with two hands, or ALWAYS back away for distance... this is a muscle memory problem.

You select the pistol grip. The pistol grip does not select you. You select to charge or flee.

If you already are distant from the shooter, then you must make more distance toward cover, then without cover, even concealment. Sure, but this rule should not enter into the statistaclly more common extreme police-civilian CQC situations.

Through the years now, getting to be decade, I have experimented with this idea, with simulated ammo, and with some of the top competition shooters, police officers, soildiers, SWAT. I would venture to say 1,000s of them who come to me seminars. I do this through the "Rambo Drills" format. The distance makers, stand close, draw and both back away to "create distance." There is am almost 100% death rate between both parties when they do this. Experts and novices alike! Gun gods! They usually move straight back (still in the easy line if fire) and die like dogs, too. It reminds me of the old sniper line- "go ahead and run. You'll just die tired."

With just a few charging tricks/tactics and maybe two hours of training, one of the parties charges in, with fighting or with fighting and shooting. The survival rate goes up to 70 or even 100 percent. Going in, not going back.

Now if you are NOT close enough to charge in?  You are two things. One, you are not in the common civilian/police shooting distance percentages and two-you must make distance and find cover.

Simulated ammo shooting has brought these realities to the forefront. As you can study the steps happening right before your eyes.

It is odd that I was taught these things by vet cops from the 1940s, 50s and 60s. Back in a day when the proliferation of information was slow and stunted and travel for these experts was more difficult.  Limited to book publishing, I guess. Today we are monopliized by a younger, innocent paper-target, range mentality, a foundation upon which future construction is often shakey. Shakey foundation and then shakey dictums. Dicums like, "always get distance!"

Paper target shooting is supposed to only accessorize gun fight training, not monopolize it. Not twist it off into dangerous directions.

God Bless simulated ammo training. God bless it! We can take back this ground- this vague, paper training ground and produce more succinct and realistic methods.

"One hour training? 15 minutes on the range with live fire. 45 minutes shooting live, thinking people who are shooting back."

Hock
(Hey, much of this is demonstrated and explained in Gun Level 8)
« Last Edit: April 20, 2006, 12:52:10 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2006, 09:37:12 AM »

It depends...
on how close you are in the first place.

I think if you are in lunge and reach range? Best be charging in with a free hand up to foul up his gun arm and gun while he´s drawing. Or twisting his body if he has the protected half-turn.

Even if your first shot has to be at his foot or knee, as you raise you pistol as shoot, you are starting to win. Waiting to get the perfect two-hand, poster-boy pose may be a tad too late.

I see a 50 to 70 percent success rate when this is done. I see about 95 percent shot/death rate when its not.

Hock

Professor

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2006, 05:38:32 PM »


It depends...
on how close you are in the first place.


Yes....my wise chief.
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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2006, 09:52:54 PM »

I train something I like to calll restricted areas combat  or "RAC" Im not sure if I invented the term but i like to think i did (it keeps me warm on those -30 nights)

It is basiclly a concept which can be applied to areas where distance may or may not be your friend, that may be due to several factors including inital distance from the subject (asume that you are speaking with someone at close quaters range and things go south of the border) Or you maybe in an elevator, or in a stair well, in a car etc. The basic premise is "if I cant have distance, neither can he" I have found that froma pschyological perspective it gives you the predator mindset and puts them on the back foot. This is particulry true when they think they have one up on you to begin with. Because as always the shitrat has made the descion to attack, and by default thinks of you as pray. It has a tendancy to create a "freeze" in the shitrat which i then can take advantage of.

Anyway just thought id throw that out there.
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arnold

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2006, 05:37:35 AM »

-30, most guns would freeze due to the improper type of lubrication on them. But I agree with Hock on closing the distance. All this gun talk has got me excited. Must buy new pistol.
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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2006, 07:52:10 AM »

-30, most guns would freeze due to the improper type of lubrication on them. But I agree with Hock on closing the distance. All this gun talk has got me excited. Must buy new pistol.

-30 In Canada is not uncommon at all, never heard of guns freezing
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arnold

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2006, 05:13:45 AM »

Sustained cold, look at the reports from the German army in Russia during WWII. . I'll try to find the article that went into detail of the lubricant that the Russian used and didn't have cold weather problems
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Kentbob

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2006, 06:49:11 AM »

We had a specific type of lubricant in Alaska for this problem.  In typical Army parlance, it was called LAW: Lubricant, Arctic Weather.  Very thin, not like CLP at all.  It was supposed to be good down to about -60.  I never really used it much.  One important thing I know from my time up there is that you have to clean weapons very thoroughly when you bring them in from the cold.  Moisture condenses all over the place, and in every conceivable nook and cranny, causing them to rust quick, fast, and in a hurry if not cleaned properly.


Kent
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threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2006, 02:51:07 PM »

In most of the actual shooting videos I have seen the badguy never stays still. If you charge and he retreats you lose precious time etc. If you fail to secure the gun then you are in deadly close range even for a novice shooter. If the bad guy gets ahold of your gun arm etc. I don't believe that charging is the best choice in most situations.

If you are even or behind in the reatcionary curve getting distance is the safest option IMO. If you train to engage while moving that is. I was reading about a new course being offered based on FTR Fluid Threat Response. It teaches its students to score 95 percent plus center of mass hits while running in any direction even straight backwards. Still traditional retreat while engaging the target is the safest route for surviving most fights IMO.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2006, 06:18:16 PM »

3 Gun, I think you're missing the point.

On every course I've ever done where we're both armed and a bad guy tries to draw down on you, you are reacting to his action, and therefore behind the curve, where, unless you're superhuman, with superhuman reflexes, he'll beat you to the draw. 

Almost every time we've done this drill you get your shot off a second or two behind the bad guy.  I can only imagine what the result would be if it were a real bullet and not airsoft, simunitions etc.

What does work is forgetting about your weapon, closing the gap (typically under seven feet) and interupting his attempt.  In other words it's faster to go empty hands than it is to attempt to draw a weapon and play catch up.

You mention (quite correctly) that the bad guy will be moving.  If he's moving away as you go in he's creating a gap.  So you then say by creating distance you are safer.  Ok, so what if you're moving gun man moves IN on you instead of away?  How is that situation any better?  Now you're running backwards (or you've turned your back on him and are trying to run away...)...either way you're in a shitty situation.  In the former you can't run backwards as fast as he can forwards, and you can't see what's behind you so running into, or tripping over something is highly likely.  In the latter,  I can't see what he's doing, and, assuming i'm armed, how am I going to shoot someone behind me while running away - effectively?

Also, what about in situations where you're not armed and the bad guy is.  Again, every time we've ever cobbled this type of drill together we get a better success rate than if we try anything else.

Lastly, every body guard school I've ever attended teaches the same thing....faster to go to empty hands and rush the guy than attempt anything else.

N
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2006, 07:47:33 PM »

Still traditional retreat while engaging the target is the safest route for surviving most fights IMO.

Threegun, that is spoken like true-blue gun guy. Most fights, but we are talking here about very close encounters. There is a lunge and reach range where this charging can work very, very sucessfully. From some practice you know what your lunge and reach range is. I have watched this work, oh maybe a thousand times, with everything form Simunitions, sims, airsoft, pellets, even rubber band guns.  Both guys usually get shot multiple times as both move back. Survivors increase their odds by charging in. And as Nick says, you can run forward faster than he can run backward.

Typical responses facing off an armed opponent:
  -his is probably untrained. Easily proven by FBI stats

  -he remains in place

  -he back peddles

  -he turns gun back

  -he turns gun back and back peddles

  -he has a good speedy quick draw

  -he fumbles his quick draw (this happens a lot, by the best of gun gods)

 -he charges forward, with a hand in your face? Trouble! the charge is always trouble. This is practiced on the target range by many courses. the free hand strikes the target, then shoots.

We try to solve each of the above movements. There are simple and effective solutions.For one example, if he turns his body while drawing, (a quite natural movement) this often takes his gun off of you. I believe that a good guy can charge forward and improve his odds. But I also have a series where the good guy reflexively draws his pistol though we all agree he is behind the time curve. He can't help himself! He still must charge forward shooting. Even if he stsitches the guy in the knee? He starts to win.

It is terrific that there is a Fluid Shooting Course shooting on the run. I suggest everyone go. We hope Johnny the crack dealer will miss it. Odd are over 90% he will. But even if Johnny goes? Real gunfighting training is training while being shot back at. If no one is shooting back at you, it is an incomplete experience. Higher, manadatory learning begins when the moving, thinking, bad man shoots back with loud, painful rounds

I do these drills in Level 1! The Rambo Drills. I want a new student to have a basis to evaluate all teir subsquent training. In Level 8 we turn these into more combat scenarios, that involve grappling and shooting. these close quarter events are almost always one-handed shooting. It just works out that way.

I repeat from the first, opening thread....
"The distance makers, stand close, draw and both back away to "create distance." There is am almost 100% death rate between both parties when they do this. Experts and novices alike! Gun gods! They usually move straight back (still in the easy line if fire) and die like dogs, too. It reminds me of the old sniper line-"go ahead and run. You'll just die tired."

Quick note...I have seen shooter charge and shoot with painful sims from a greater distance than very close. The other person often crunches up and misses his shots.

But, what exactly is a traditonal retreat?

Hock

Kentbob

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2006, 08:54:33 PM »

This is also a very important point to consider when entering and clearing rooms.  If your weapons malfunctions at the critical point, are you going to give the bad guy time to collect his wits and reach for/draw his weapon?  I have not had the opportunity to practice this, but I have practiced drawing my emergency weapon, and have rehearsed in my head a million times charging the bad guy and doing my best to do unto him before he does unto me.  Running backwards, creating space, that sort of thing will not work in this sort of scenario, IMO, because then you just don't have anywhere to go from here.  Now you are trying and hoping you get your malfunctioned cleared before the bad guy acquires his weapon.  Not a good situation to be in, I don't think.  I've never been there, but I can think of a scenario I would rather be in.

Kent
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2006, 07:11:56 AM »

I am alive today because I have interupted quick draws of knives and pistols, and interrupted lunges-and-reaches of knives, pistols and long guns. Other weapons too....

A guy came after me once wth an axe. If I had tried to draw and shoot, and if I had shot him, I probably would have had that axe in my head, from his momentum and him doubling over. I forego-ed the classic "my-gun-solves-all-problems-in-the-world" range mentality, moved in and and took him down.

if I had even tried to pull my pistol reflexively (which has happened too) you still need a free hand to to block and pass, which is why i worry so much about that two-handed shooting muscle memory that breeds from unbalanced range practice.

This close-quarters attack occured on rather small and cluttered, outdoor patio of an apartment. Not much room to manuever and lots of junk to stumble over and into. Much like real life combat in houses and stores and bars and, and, and almost everywhere. I shudder to think what would have happened if I decided to run back or sideways without the chance to look. 

And the close-up pistol blasts of a closing opponent, very often destroys the equilibrium and concentration of the bad guy.

In a world where combat is 45% to 65% extremely close, charging is one of the most important things I teach, unarmed or if by instinct when you pull your gun. I think one must have an open mind to the possibility. 45 to 65% of all pistol training should be about these problems. That means 45 to 65 rounds out of a 100 round practice day, else the wrong muscle memory will be developed.

Of course if you are too far away to begin with....?

Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2006, 10:00:59 AM »

-30 the gun will freeze in sustained cold but no punk who is about to shoot you has been forced marching up and down Yonge street for 12 hours before he kills you.
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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2006, 11:01:22 AM »

So we are taking this thread in the context that the bad guy has NOT yet drawn a weapon?  That, depending on the distance, when he draws, you charge?  I'm just trying to make sure I understand specific type of situations you are discussing.
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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2006, 01:19:04 PM »

This past January at the 4 day CQC camp in Las Vegas, we ran the "wall mart madness" shoot out scenario using air soft pistols.  Most of us, myself included, started off trying the "sneaky" approach, where we used cover and concealment of the cars and tried for position and playing "cat and mouse" type games.  One person blew the whole thing away.  He started his scenarios like it was a track meet.  Charged in running at full speed in circuitous paths.  Mortality rate among his opponents went way up.  His survival was pretty good.

A few folks tried to copy him with similar results.  This was with airsofts and it was windy that day so that could have made running forward a more successful strategy, but it really looked like the best thing to do when separated from an assailant with a firearm by a few cars was to get in a low crouching run and go as fast as you could in flanking maneuvers and take him out fast.  The retreating behind cover approach was more of a flip-the-coin-to-see-who-dies affair.

I have tried this with my club and have had similar results again with airsofts.  Fast crouched running and flanking maneuvers to close the gap seem to work very well - far superior to more careful hiding behind cover and keeping distance.  I would be interested in trying this with paintball or simunition because the slow speed and short range of the airsoft guns may skew the results.
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2006, 08:21:30 PM »

I'm just trying to make sure I understand specific type of situations you are discussing.

The very high rate of actual occurance, the very close range, withing the lunge and reach of the opponent. Three feet to 5 feet or so.

through practice you will learn your personal "I can get to him" range.

Hock

Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2006, 09:55:42 AM »

So we are taking this thread in the context that the bad guy has NOT yet drawn a weapon?  That, depending on the distance, when he draws, you charge?  I'm just trying to make sure I understand specific type of situations you are discussing.

Yes.
He has NOT drawn the pistol. You are close enough to lunge and reach.

But if his gun is out. And you are close. Charging in to try a disarm is also a universally accepted tactic.

Hock

Kentbob

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2006, 12:38:24 PM »

This past January at the 4 day CQC camp in Las Vegas, we ran the "wall mart madness" shoot out scenario using air soft pistols.  Most of us, myself included, started off trying the "sneaky" approach, where we used cover and concealment of the cars and tried for position and playing "cat and mouse" type games.  One person blew the whole thing away.  He started his scenarios like it was a track meet.  Charged in running at full speed in circuitous paths.  Mortality rate among his opponents went way up.  His survival was pretty good.

A few folks tried to copy him with similar results.  This was with airsofts and it was windy that day so that could have made running forward a more successful strategy, but it really looked like the best thing to do when separated from an assailant with a firearm by a few cars was to get in a low crouching run and go as fast as you could in flanking maneuvers and take him out fast.  The retreating behind cover approach was more of a flip-the-coin-to-see-who-dies affair.

I have tried this with my club and have had similar results again with airsofts.  Fast crouched running and flanking maneuvers to close the gap seem to work very well - far superior to more careful hiding behind cover and keeping distance.  I would be interested in trying this with paintball or simunition because the slow speed and short range of the airsoft guns may skew the results.

Oh yeah.  I have myself, both in training and real life, laid down some lead while moving as fast as my booted feet would carry me to the next covered position.  Sometimes you can hunker down, and stand them off, but only if you have backup coming, ie. bradleys or police.  A lot of times, and this was one drill that we worked on numerous times, you just have to lay down the lead, keep the bad guy's head or heads down, and hope for the best as you run forward.  I also learned this lesson whilst playing paintball.  I realized that if I just hunkered down, and waited, my team would lose the scenario.  So I hoped for the best, and squeezed the trigger as fast as reasonably possible, to keep my opponent's head down.  It worked, and we won.  Another time, during Army training, we had to get from one building to the next, with no easy, covered and concealed route.  The difference was that the bad guys were everywhere, and to try and shoot it out with them on the street, no matter how quick, would bog the whole squad down.  So, I said my prayers, put my head down, and charged through the fire, hoping that if I ever had to do it in real life, the body armor would take the brunt of it.  It worked, we got to the next building and only a couple people got "killed".  That was because of a bad decision on the part of the other team leader, otherwise I think we all would have made it.  We knew who got hit because the opfor had paintballs, and we just had blanks.  That was probably some of the best training I ever did, because of the instant feedback the paintballs provided.  Move past a window, and you would hear rounds hitting all around, because someone you couldn't see, saw you.  Very intereshting. 

I know that doesn't have much to do with the lunge and reach theme, but the point is, sometimes you just have to fix bayonets, or the equivalent, and charge.

Kent
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threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 03:27:02 PM »

Hock, I misunderstood your distance. If you are at almost contact distance things are much different. Still you must take into consideration your physical ability as well as the strength of your attacker. I am not LE so I would consider allowing a threat into my personal area a failure to begin with. For those situations that place me in close proximity to potential threats (against my will) IE waiting in line, malls, etc. I am ready to deploy my folder at the first sign of trouble. For me the need to charge should never materialize.

I am however looking at a new shooting training called the fluid threat response. It involves reacting to a deadly threat (depending on your position in the reaction curve) by running full speed in whatever direction until access to your firearm is achieved and then delivering accurate return fire at that speed (when behind or equal) in the reaction curve. This allows us to go with the bodies natural desire to flee while gaining access to your own weapon and engaging the threat at full motion in any direction. You gain distance, you are moving making yourself a harder target to hit. It is said to be possible at close distance to engage a threat while running full speed in any direction including the opposite direction. I plan on attending a course at the end of June.


Quote
how am I going to shoot someone behind me while running away - effectively?

I haven't taken the course yet but the instructor/developer claims a 96 percent hit ratio firing while running at full speed (in one weekend). I will post a link to the literature when the firing line website gets back on line (they crashed a couple days ago).

Traditional retreat while engaging the target. By this I mean gain distance between you and your adversary while placing the threat under duress of fire. Do this while retreating to cover (preferably). Traditional because it is what I have seen taught the most in videos and when reviewing itineraries at schools like thunder ranch and gun site. Again I didn't realize that you were talking about contact distances but many out there simply cannot compete physically with the bad guy. My wife (strong as a bull compared to most women I know) would get a serious butt whoppin against me and I ain't Bruce lee. For her advancing would get her killed.

Also you said that retreat while firing almost guaranteed your own death. Considering that officers hit ratio's are so dismal (30 percent) it seems that real life doesn't mirror FOF simunitions, paint ball, air soft, or any other training percentages. Maybe there is more to be said for the duress of real bullets and the possibility of death and its effects on accuracy. This might be why many teach "traditional" retreat while engaging.
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2006, 06:43:23 PM »

I am not LE so I would consider allowing a threat into my personal area a failure to begin with.

Whoops. That failure happens ALL the time. It fact, I am not going to be able to quote a stat but I think that a threat/man is about half , or more than half the time going to start out being to close. Yeah, its a failure, but it is high, statisical reality, as threats and crimes go.

I am however looking at a new shooting training called the fluid threat response.
You know, you also might consider just about ANY of my seminars. We always do sims guns each weekend. We easily and frequently do the Rambo drills with sims. It becomes obvious which way to run when they shoot at you.

I have seen the "natural body desires" run from the near, close quick draw. You usually die when so much as an untrained teen-ager is point-shooting you. I have organized and done this drill over a thousand times with military, police, citizens and people who have ever shot before.

For myself, through the years, the answers to gun fighting was not in more and more range target shooting. But, it was "out of the box" thinking. Actually, it was simunitions shooting against moving, thinking people who shot back, that did it for me.

Also deploying the knife is a whip, too... when close. We do stress quick daws in Knife Level One and these little buggers are hard to open when the suspect is charging

Of course all this is predicated on the idea no one will ever get too close to you. Which I am going to hope for all of us, too... but as they say- "shit happens." Statiscally 45% to 65% of the time citizen and police shootings are very close.

AT a distance, it is always good to dash. That is not new.

I plan on attending a course at the end of June.

I fear it will be damn-near worthless unless sims are involved at the end of the session. Maybe it does? I myself will never even bother attending a shooting course unless it involved sims shooting. It is the future. It is the revolution. The real truth.

Keep us posted.

Hock

 

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2006, 07:04:07 PM »

Considering that officers hit ratio's are so dismal (30 percent) it seems that real life doesn't mirror FOF simunitions, paint ball, air soft, or any other training percentages

Well, That is because the bad guy gets to shot first, and good guys have to respond.... under fire. Maybe the good guys are backing up and running and drawing and getting all shot up...creating that "magic distance thing" that traditonalists tell them to do....

Let him get his gun up and out and pointed at you? Not good. Best to interrupt that if you are close.

Actually the return-fire, hit rates can be even worse year to year. The bad guys have had as high as 90% hit rates. He gets to shoot first! we have to respond under that horrible close-up explosion.

For her advancing would get her killed.
Also, not everyone is the size of your wife. You yourself, must not, not charge as a strategy...just because in theory, your wife can't. You are you. But, I tell you what, let your wife do the Rambo drills we have and she will survive over 60% of the time. If not, she'll run traditionally back and get shot 90% of the time. We are not asking you to duke it out with the bad guy for ten minutes. Just interrupt his quick draw. Then shot him. Your odds are better.
 
You should charge in if close, hit him, shove him or whatever, interrupt his draw process and you draw and shoot him. When close, the untrained enemy needs no skill to shoot you as you scamper off.

Also, we discover that even gun gun stress out with an opponent in front of them. The bad guy may not be so fast drawing his gun (over 95% or more do not have holsters. You may have more time than one think.

Just come do the Rambo drills, man.

Hock

threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2006, 04:12:55 AM »

Hock,

Quote
Actually, it was simunitions shooting against moving, thinking people who shot back, that did it for me.

Again I have much trouble comparing this with the stress of having your arse on the line.

Quote
The bad guys have had as high as 90% hit rates. He gets to shoot first! we have to respond under that horrible close-up explosion.

Also I would like to review the stats that confirm the bad guys high hit ratio. I have trouble believing this is a real life percentage. Although I can believe it is a FoF percentage. I could swear that bad guy real life hit ratio's are worst than LEO's hit ratio's but I can't remember the percentage.


Quote
Of course all this is predicated on the idea no one will ever get too close to you. Which I am going to hope for all of us, too... but as they say- "shit happens." Statically 45% to 65% of the time citizen and police shootings are very close.

Just because the shootings happen close doesn't mean that they started close (for the civilian). I have had my space violated however I kept the advantage on the reactionary curve. I can't remember the last time (a predator) got close enough for contact distances. Like I said except for those rare times I go to the state fair or the mall or a ball game I cannot allow my space to be violated (without action). My actions might be as subtle as placing my hand on my gun (without alerting the threat)(this option is reserved for those threats that appear benign) or as open as telling someone to stop and go away. It all depends on the vibes given off by the threat and their body language. My goal is to never allow an obvious threat to get close. So far I have been successful.
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threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2006, 04:45:11 AM »

Hock,

Quote
the only hope you have is to charge in. You either charge, control the his shooting arm and beat the snot out of him; or charge, control the shooting arm and draw and shoot. AND then you must then RIDE THE GUN DOWN so he will not shoot you on the way down. This entire episode is a one-handed shoot.

Control his shooting arm? This leaves his free arm to dangle unused by his side. There are just to many ifs in the real world. In sims training the bad guy you are fighting for control of his gun isn't gouging your eyes or pinching your testicles....with his free hand,you get my drift. There are limits in sims training for health reasons. The same limits which have me wondering about the statistical survival percentages compared to the real world. Competition shooters facing off in mock combat compared to a rock head that has never fired a gun before now having to shoot before getting shot.....for real...........90 percent hits is BS.

This is why I believe that gaining distance while engaging the threat is the higher percentage for survival...........in the real world not sims training. The reason I want to try the Fluid Threat Response is because if it works it will allow me to move faster while engaging the threat. Hock I can charge or traditionally retreat or stand pat. What I can't do is retreat fast while getting good quality hits (never tried it). Given the above problems I have with charging in the real world if this training works I will stand a better chance of survival IMO.

P.S. At contact distances the bad guy is just as likely to defleck or otherwise immobilize your weapon. Then you have the problem of your bullets not having the desired effect on your target. You had better prepare for an extended battle once you engage in hand to hand. I really think this lowers the odds for most civilians......including myself. If I was Ken Shamrock and every other good citizen was equally trained things would be different.
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 08:47:15 AM »

The 1997 FBI study, IN the LINE of FIRE:

"In 98% of the officer involved shootings studied, (all records/all years) the offender fired first. The offender had a 90% hit ratio. The officers, while firing second had a 41% hit ratio. Great study, covers the lslower shooter being wounded, surprised, etc."

The FBI has in other studies have recorded that about 90% of bad guys have zero shooting training. Pretty much All point shooting. In these prison interviews, they discovered that the next smallest batch (about 6%) have plinked around off the back porch with guns. The smallest percentage- the remaining 4% or so have formal training.

Keep in mind these are the very criminals...the common criminals you will be gunfighting against. Not John Farnum. So...try to make a realistic assement when you point out the "I am not a cop" arguement." else what you say might sound like illogical "BS"... Your bad guys are their bad guys. Same.

P.S. At contact distances the bad guy is just as likely to defleck or otherwise immobilize your weapon.

Yup, that is why you have to, MUST learn what happens next. How to free your hand, or not free your gun hand and shoot him in the knee, the hip or where ever. The brainwashing of the range and gun gods is that all shooting is two-hands and center mass. Did I say MUST train this unarmed aspect? Must. You consider these high statistic, close-up probabilities. Not doing so in the BS part. You cannot be gun fighter without knowing some practical, unarmed skills.

Your personal space is violated on a movie line, or a hamburger line, or christmas shopping. It is easy to be surprised in real life. Violenc errupts in a kitchen during a birthday party. Look at the REAL crime stats. You cannot believe that you will always be on a three-point stance, walking through life and ALWAYs staying away from problems. Most ciitzens just turn around and are staring at a criminal gun and a thug's knife.

ALWAYS Fluidly Dashing
The other factor to consider is, other than a parking lot, what environments are fully open for you to go fluidly dashing about in. Even many parking lots have curbs and cars and trees and so forth. Real life is very cluttered.

But your reluctance to recognize sims training? Man...I don't know what to say. you are behind the curve on this. If you are not training to shoot while being shot at? You are not training to gun fight. The simulated ammo shooting is the next step, and way closer to reality than range shooting. Perfect? No Closer? Yes. Way yes. If you cannot understand this simple concept, you are not in thinking of Just about every modern range that produces high-speed, reality shooters, are now ALL use some phases of sims shooting as a final product of their classes. If you cannot grasp this simple, now getting-to-be universal concept? I am afraid I am wasting my breath...or typing...

Anyway though, I think you are having a scenario set-up, disconnect in your mind with me. You just can't picture the situation. You can't see yourself ambushed while walking out of a convienece store, or christmas shopping or standing in line at a bank...

Sure you should learn to shoot on the move. Everyone should. I have been doing that for ten years in Level 1 of my gun course. No big news. In that upcoming class? I just hope that the target that you are shooting at, starts shooting back at you at some point of the training. Maybe running and chasing you a bit....too...as the day progresses.

I have to run, (and reread that remark about Ken Shamrock)

Hock

threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2006, 12:55:29 PM »

Hock,
Quote
Most citizens just turn around and are staring at a criminal gun and a thug's knife.

I have done some of my own personal interviewing of victims when they come to purchase a gun from the pawnshop that I work at. You are correct that most of them were caught completely off guard. Those that weren't caught of guard had something very much in common..................almost every one of them say they saw the threat coming, new it was trouble coming, but had no means to resist. This coincides with my own personal experiences. I can simply tell when someone is up to no good. Even in those hamburger lines we both talked about, it is easy to spot the trouble maker and even easier to spot the predator. Maybe I've been lucky and my bubble will burst someday who knows. Since 92 I have done a darned good job though.

I'm looking at those stats after this post.
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threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2006, 04:41:06 PM »

Quote
If you are not training to shoot while being shot at? You are not training to gun fight.

Are you serious? You know absolutely that you will not die or become injured.  I learned this from childhood bb gun wars (one pump and below the neck). That was pain yet I knew it was not going to kill me. I get a bigger charlie horse in my belly from shooting a big competition. Sims has its good training aspects but simulation for being shot at it is not. Training for hitting a moving, bobbing, and weaving target its great.

If you are able to prevent their draw. If you are able to draw you own gun. Charging is great. Lots of if's though. It also requires some physical ability. You obviously are prepared to the hands on encounter. I believe that I am prepared aswell. I just prefer not to get to that position. At contact distance I have failed.
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2006, 08:23:37 PM »

"If you are on a footbal team and practicing  plays against next Sunday's team. Do you have to get nervous or have a charlie horse for the practice to be good, or important?"

No actually...Are you serious?
Of course we are not talking about kids playing with BB guns in the yard.
(Every get hit with a Simunitions projectile?)
 
Knowing that you can get shot during a particular tactic, is very educational. People can write reems of important things they learn while doing sims. For example, when you do the fluid dash course, it might be easy to increase a shot pattern at a stationary paper target. But, what if that "target starts moving. Your honed shot pattern gets screwed up, especially it you get clipped in the helemt by a sims round...

Unlike kids in the back yard, all sims training needs to have an adequate coach to dissect what has happened, who shot who first, why or where. An...after-action review. Much is learned about gun fighting. In fcat, it would have been a learning experience if you evaluated how your belly was shot in the BB fight. Might not want to do that move again!

Quick classic learning experiences. I did a sims seminar in Colorado, attended by a city's narcotic's unit. All the narcs carry their guns in the pants line, up front. When they shoot on the range, they lift their shirt with their left hand, pull and shoot with their right. But on this sims days they were bum-rushed by bad guys and their free hand was busy fending off and fighting the bum-rusher. When they went for their pistol? Their free range hand was...busy. Their draws were hindered, rendering the weapen to no-shot or one-shot operations. They told me later...."who knew that would happen...?"
Sims knew..

London. I am doing a gas gun sims day inside a brick warehouse. Night time. Several police officers attended. One officer held up the rear security of an advancing team. He caustiously covered his area. But Joe Hubbard spotted him, in two holes between two walls.  Joe took careful aim lining up the small hole openings. He shot the officer in the helmet from his dark position. Later, the officer said, "Who knew I wasn't safe. I never thought to worried about small holes in the wall like that."

Doing house and building serches against armed opponents...

Jeez, I could on and on and on and so could many others. It is not about being nervous in your stomach. Or your charlie horse. It is also not about feeling the pain of being shot! It is learning tactics that work. It is elarning not to expose your knee behind a car. Your elbow in a house search. Learning about ricochets...my God, the list is enormus. It is learning to draw and fire...at a real person pulling his gun, instead of a whistle or bell. Learning that you run too damn slow, or slower than you thought, when someone is shooting (and moving) at you. 

If you are on a footbal team and practicing  plays against next Sunday's team. Do you have to get nervous or have a charlie horse for the practice to be good, or important?

But back to the specific point.

So...which is better, which is more educational?

a) Shooting paper targets on the square range...
        or...
b) Simulated ammo training with moving, thinking people trying to shoot you

Can you explain to me, and well, all the modern, high-speed,  combat gun ranges and the U.S. Army and U.S. Marines, FBI, US marshals, every SWAT team on the planet place a growing priority on sims... why we should bother doing it? or, why paper targets are far better training?
 
Hock


« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 08:53:23 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2006, 08:49:55 PM »

Did you know that 40% of the felons in jail in California are Hispanic? That the average height of a Hispanic is said to be...about 5'6"?  Not exactly Ken Shamrock's size, or even skill. In fact, many of the criminals are not specimens like Ken Shamrock.

In fact, only Ken Shamrock is Ken Shamrock. "Throwing down" Ken Shamrock's name is an example of knocking a little unarmed combatives training is well...I think Three-Gun...kind of an excuse, for not doing it...or thinking you don't have to do it because it is futile to fight Ken Shamrock.  Like everyone you or wife may have to overcome is Bruce lee or Ken Shamrock. Or, blowing off the idea of some unarmed training because you will never be Ken Shamrock or Bruce Lee...so why should I bother?

You don't have to be Shamrock or Lee to learn an eye jab or some desperate moves to gain a little time to draw your gun. As gun writer and instructor Ralph Mroz often says, people's desires get confused when they speak about self defense. "They buy every new gun spring on the market to save their life, but then they chain smoke."

I say to people...that the next time one feels the urge to attend the next $650 two-day gun course, or buy that next spring, they instead might just consider attending a good, simple, unarmed combatives course for a few tricks. Not just mine! Anybody's that good. If you care about self defense to attend all these gun courses, a little of this other stuff couldn't hurt.

(Hey, Three-Gun...Great conversation by the way. I love talking this stuff.)






threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2006, 05:30:05 AM »

Hock, Here is my quote

Quote
Sims has its good training aspects but simulation for being shot at it is not. Training for hitting a moving, bobbing, and weaving target its great.

I agree that sims training has good aspects but preparing you for the stress, duress, etc of an actual real life gunfight it cannot. You cannot take times and hit ratios in sims and use them for real life battles IMO. My friends and I have farted around with airsoft at work (I guess that would qualify as a form of sims). It is much harder to hit a moving target especially if you are moving. Now if you add the duress of a gunfight many of those hits I get would probably go out the window. This is precisely why it is taught over and over to gain distance and place your adversary under duress ASAP. Get to cover if possible while engaging the threat. Also I never said paper targets were better. The best target I have found (that can be engaged with real bullets) is a balloon. Set up several balloons outdoors and engage them while moving........they are 3 dimensional and the wind currant gets them moving erratically so that you cannot anticipate the shot........great targets and cheap.

Holly molly I don't even know where to begin on the Ken Shamrock thing. I have fought before, sparred before, boxed before. I am acutely aware of eye gouging, throat blows, "testicle attacks", etc. I am also aware of the fact that I could hold you off by simply bobbing, backped, sidestepping, with one arm out. If you only used one arm things would be even worst as far as hitting me. Now shift this to most people who have zero training or are feeble (old folks and women). You have to have both training and the tools (power, speed, etc) to handle hand to hand. Just think about this. All those women you have trained to strike your nuts or gouge your eyes......would they stand a snowballs chance of beating you??????That is what I am talking about and why I caution recommending the charge except to LE or the super highly trained and only in the most extreme cases. We just disagree.
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