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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

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Author Topic: Closing the Distance  (Read 8377 times)

Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2006, 08:22:10 AM »

You know...I have quite a few seminars at gun ranges through the years. The owners and everyone gets excited, until I tell them..."don't bring your real gun." This floors the the true-blue, gun guy. Floors them. In fact, all the excited commitments of coming? Don't show. The few that do? Are in starched jeans, wear every new, peice of gear...and freak when we get on the ground. "Why I have a gun! I'm never going to have to ground fight!"

Welcome to the true-blue, gun-guy, mental wall. I have seen the wall my whole training life. Most is these people have fallen in love with their guns and shooting their guns, instead of falling in love with successful, fighting tactics.

(sims) but preparing you for the stress, duress, etc of an actual real life gunfight it cannot.

No one ever said it did...(although Simunitions does a really good job) Three-gun..NO TRAINING DOES! NONE! Period. Nothing does but real gunfights. Some just bring you closer. Force-on-Force sims brings you closer. A helleva lot closer than paper target shooting ever will.

Many combat and  police trainers today use the phrase "making gun fighters instead of marksmen." because...do one thing and you get really good at that one thing.

> Punch focus mitts? You'll get get use to punching focus mitts, and not so good at boxing.

> Spend a lot of time shooting balloons? You'll eventually get real good at...shooting ballons.

> Shoot at moving, thinking people and you'll eventully get better at shooting at moving, thinking, people.


Just think about this. All those women you have trained to strike your nuts or gouge your eyes......would they stand a snowballs chance of beating you???

Beating me? Not the issue. Actually, my goal is to have all my students beat me. But, It is never about me. Nor using a standard of always fighting me or Shamrock. Nor Bruce Lee. Nor an 80-year-old women. I am not the average criminal. You don't have to beat me or Shamrock. You train to start with beating the average criminal. When are you going to get this idea? When? When?

Folks can learn to football charge, or whatever and interrupt the opponent. There are also many stories of eye attackes just wiping people out. Confusing them, causing there head to flinch. Then sometimes where they didn't work. The groin strike doesn't seem to be a good strike in this situation (how do I kow this, that would be from doing sims-it seems the groin doesn't get exposed too much in the action.)

That is what I am talking about and why I caution recommending the charge except to LE or the super highly trained and only in the most extreme cases.

See now, we are bordering back on the  "it takes Ken Shamrock to do this," standard. But you are not using Shamrock this time, instead you have jumped the entire spectrum to the other extreme end. You are using as an excuse- old, feeble ladies this time. Same argument!

But, you cannot build a universal training system for all people by using old and feeble people as the standard. (or ken Shamrock) Old and feeble people are the extreme.You select the standard from the middle ground. Sadly, the old and feeble people are kinda screwed either way. Do you instead recommend them to...fluidly dash off while shooting sideways? (I am getting a funny picture in mind)

Look...Try it first with sims. (with a good sims instructor. I swear within the hour or less you will learn how simple it can be and see the near 60% or more survival ratio over running away.) These are gross-motor, bum-rush tasks involved in charging may be surprisingly more simple than hitting a shot pattern in a dash over your shoulder.

We just disagree.

But. Three-gun, here's the rub. You are not disagreeing with me, you are really disagreeing with the modern collective of "switched-on" combat shooters worldwide. I was first taught this classic, close-up "shove and shoot" (or closing in when close)  in the early 1970's in Police Judo classes, taught by fat, old police vets from the 50s, 60s, and 70s. This shove-and-shoot charge has been taught non-stop since.

Taught ever since? Yes, even inside your target range shooting. The over-emphasis on target marksmenship, has slowly destroyed and altered the gun fighting aspects. But still, even in today's marksmenship-heavy classes, I'll bet you have stood at the 3-yard line, hit the target with your forearm and shot. Yes? It is still a universal, training standard. That is what we are talking about.

You shoot about 6 to 10 rounds and then move on to the more challenging shooting because it is too boring to stay too close. But they still have to do it. They do it because it is a solution to the 'reach out and touch" range of gun fight.

Our "Shove and Shoot" sims practice takes that common problem even futher, but explores more. Problem is, half or more than half of all shooting is in that close range. It needs more work and effort there. As I have said here if you shoot 100 rounds at a range. At least 45 round should be that close-up. Not just 6. Not 10 rounds. Go with the stats. Why did all the bad guys in the FBI study get a 90% hit ratio? This speaks to the fact that most of these shootings were really close, ala point shooting, esle how would they hit these people?

But Three-gun (and I think Two-gun a bit too? ) you all speak like many a true-blue gun guy.  But here is what I worry about for you and for all "true, blue gun guys." In a world of the rapidly, growing realization of Force-on-Force (FOF) training, and the acceptance of simulated ammo as a key, superior training method...

- you de-value  FOF because it doesn't give you a nervous, charlie horse

- you de-value FOF because the bullets don't really hurt, so how could it possible be so valuable?

- you didn't know common shooting statistics and called them B.S.

- you think you will be fighting Ken Shamrock holding a gun

- you think you need to be Ken shamrock to do any survival moves

- you have never attended a good sims class

- you belive you will never, ever allow a threat close to you

Here is why I worry for you, bubba. And I really do scratch my head and do worry. These are just not sound arguements or points, but have put up a mental wall? A true-blue, gun-guy wall, and I fear that you will now stubbornly take these positions the rest of your life and even try to gather any reason, slip of info, or excuse to support these positions, rather than explore more.


We just disagree.
The summary of "we agree to disagree" saddens me. That means we have closed up shop on this...and you don't get a single damn thing. You will now instead go out to YET ANOTHER paper target class, YET AGAIN work on more even more ballons and paper target marksmenship and shot patterns to try and solve a high-stat problem, in a lesser, more abstracte way.

Of course, I hope and pray that you and your family will NEVER, ever get into a jam (no matter what courses you take), and you live a prosperous and safe and best lives possible. Odds are you will. Still, with fears of crime and terrorism abounding...most folks do not get in shoot-outs.

So... I guess I just have to let it go. Yup...Three-gun, we just disagree. I love ya' man! We simply just disagree.

<<<>>>

Again, this is great reading for all people to read and consider. Great points to discuss and talk about. This type of thing is talk forum reading at its best.

Hock

« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 12:42:54 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2006, 02:18:35 PM »

Hock,

Quote
You train to start with beating the average criminal. When are you going to get this idea? When? When?

The point I want you to get is that the average person is who will be fighting the average criminal. I consider charging a tactic only for those with above average training and above average tools needed for hand to hand. The only time IMO that the average person should charge instead of retreat is when behind in the reactionary curve or unarmed. IMO gaining distance while accessing your weapon and engaging the threat is the better choice. Like I said we disagree. You will not convince me that my wife should charge a much stronger and more agile male hostile. You can teach her all you want and that won't make up for the disparity every time. Thats why boxing has weight classes. So that the 300lb heavy weight doesn't fight a lightweight. I realize that size and strength isn't everything but it must be a consideration. I mean you tell grandma to shove the crackhead and he will probably avoid the attack or counter attack with more violence. Your whole premise for charging is to prevent the bad guy from drawing while you draw. The whole thing can be turned around on your students just as easily. Only now the criminal with little or no training has you at point blank range making him much more likely to hit you. The human can travel 21 feet in the time it takes you to draw. I estimate that I can have about 3-4 yards between myself and the attacker while we both draw. Then they know that if they miss they might die making them less accurate. The distance combined with the fear of death is what I will choose and teach to the average citizen (that and not allowing the thug in your space to begin with).

Your problem is that you think through the mind of a warrior.......thats great for you but dangerous for the average Joe 6 pack.

You also take statistics from people shooting in simunition training and assume that when stress of death is added that those percentages remain the same.

Those thugs who hit LE 90 percent of the time with the first shot. How many of those first shots are fired at cops with guns holstered? Police with much better training only hit 41 percent with return fire.....why.....because of duress. No duress on badguys....90percent hit ratio. Duress on LE.....41 percent hit ratio.

 This in my mind translates into better odds of surviving, while employing the traditional retreat while firing tactic, than you posted.
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2006, 02:43:02 PM »

The only time IMO that the average person should charge instead of retreat is when behind in the reactionary curve or unarmed. [/i]

What other time is there?

What do you do when his gun is out already and pointed at you?

Are we now suddenly talking about the same thing?

Hock

threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2006, 03:04:44 PM »

Hock, Sorry I assumed that when you said to charge and impede his shooting arm that you meant that he hadn't drawn yet. No wonder  you were acting as if I had a bugger hanging from my nose.

Unless you are above average I would still only recommend charging if you were absolutely sure the badguy was going to kill you and there was no other way. If you feel that the thug will not shoot your odds are better that rushing the proverbial machinegun nest. Most robberies end without gunfire so the odds are better. I will say this if someone attempts to rush me (while at gun point) they will be shot and probably multiple times so I wouldn't want to test another unless it was the only way.
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Professor

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2006, 07:30:30 PM »

Hock, Sorry I assumed that when you said to charge and impede his shooting arm that you meant that he hadn't drawn yet. No wonder  you were acting as if I had a bugger hanging from my nose.

Unless you are above average I would still only recommend charging if you were absolutely sure the badguy was going to kill you and there was no other way. If you feel that the thug will not shoot your odds are better that rushing the proverbial machinegun nest. Most robberies end without gunfire so the odds are better. I will say this if someone attempts to rush me (while at gun point) they will be shot and probably multiple times so I wouldn't want to test another unless it was the only way.


Let me step in for just a moment......for a gun fight there are two ranges:

1)  grabbing/fighting range
2)  Sniper range

and three timings:

1) early
2) mid
3) late

It's important to know which one you are in and it's very important to practice before it's a real bad time.   

IHMNSHO, there is no middle range in a gun fight. 
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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2006, 08:39:58 AM »

I have nicknamed the range outside of the "Lunge and Reach" range, as "Sniper" range, yes, as I way to remind people that you may as well be fighting a distant sniper in terms of any punching and grappling. Can't do it.

Outside the lunge and reach range there is none of this unarmed fighting. Got to move dramatically, unless you shoot the guy and the guy drops, and then you have to move away from the barrel and the possiblity he might raise his arm and still try to shoot you. These can be identifed in sims training in a class designated for this purpose. You shoot the guy. He falls. His job is to next confound you with practical, realistic responses of a wounded man. Great sims training.

The FBI says that if an officer can get to cover in the first two seconds of a gun fight (outside the lunge and reach range)  he or she had a 95% survival rate. Need cover nearby. Lots of scene specifics to consider. I think this has to do with the shootign abilities of the criminal. The FBI says that 80% of all imprisoned and convicted shooters call themselves "instinct" shooters. (This was check-off interview sheet term I am told).

Remember we all are not police. But we all will fight the same criminals. There is much to glean from this encounters.

Hock


Hock

threegun

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2006, 11:01:35 AM »

Quote
I think this has to do with the shooting abilities of the criminal.

It is safe to say most LEO's are better trained than most bad guys in the use of the handgun. Still officers involved in shootouts suffer horrible hit ratio's. I agree that the poor shooting ability of the criminal is a major reason for their bad marksmanship however the duress of being shot at has the ability to turn good shooters into bad ones. If this is true than imagine what duress will do to the already bad shooter.
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Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2006, 07:31:50 AM »

With sadness, but with a mission I offer up this film. It was passed to me by police trainers. It was given this title...Cops Killed...too brusk, but that title got passed on.

Look on:
http://www.hockscqc.com/articledownloads/index.htm

Scroll down to "police"

Did the store people and the police know that the customer by the counter was with the suspect customer?

-See how close the shooting is.
-See what little room the officers are operating in. (fluid dashing for anyone?)
-See how simple and fast the shooter closes in.
-See what potential there might have been to grab the weapon-bearing limb, draw and return fire?

Man, its ugly...

It was Caliber Press 25 years ago that broke the silence of police shootings by dissecting them tacticaly for others to learn from....I hate to second guess the situtaion....but...

Hock

Hock

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2008, 07:33:16 AM »

"Fun" to re-read..

As time passes, wisdom grows? Range shooters must run their range-practiced solutions with simulated ammo guns to see if they work with real people.

Old-fashioned, staples like "the speed rock" is almost useless against a close person swinging a weapon, or shooting at you. It is likely you will be hit by any weapon he is after you with, and then you may or may not get a goo shot off. At this instant through? the axe may already be in your head.


Hock
« Last Edit: March 10, 2008, 07:38:14 AM by Hock »
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Karl

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2008, 01:44:44 AM »

Interesting Threat.

We all agree that Distance = Reaction Time  ?!?!

If you attack the Bad Guy, whilst he Reaches or Draws you will Short Circuit his Thought.
You are crashing his O.O.D.A. Cycle.

Which means you are ahead in his Action Cycle, i have done several scenarios and the look on most people faces is funny, when you interupt their Action.

For some it is, hey you can't do that, or Hey that's not supposed to happen, whilst they desperately trying to finish what they are doing.

So it shouldn't matter whether the defender is a Wife or Grandmother. ?!?!
You don't have to be Superman to do, just have the Mindset.

And before anybody asks, yes i have done Simmunittion training,
it sucks if you get shot in the fingers.

Thats the faste's way to Learn from your mistakes.

Threegun, the course you are going to do, sound like an Israeli Course.
Let us know what you learn from it.

Just my 2 cents.
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2008, 07:10:13 AM »



  "I Have Gun! I Win!" must go through the head of many a good man before they get zipped into the take away cadaver bag by the guys who bring the chalk.

  In one of the more silly arguments I have had with people on this matter was a man who argued the gun was more effective than a knife, therefore he need not get involved in any knife training. Said individual and friends were all unarmed, I pulled a small knife out of my pocket to no effect, some people will never respond to simple applied as a fight science. While there are no specific rules to gun fighting there are statistics. Statistics can be used as a road map to get one to their destination, aka to help survive gun violence. When its all over plain old generic "Survival" is the end game for people who are not mentally ill or blinded by some kind of mythology taught by the Gurus and Guros of the training world.

  On closing the distance, even a Chihuahua has to close the distance to bite effectively. I have taken one hell of a ass whippen from a cat for taking the liberty of giving it a vet  test, it brought the fight to me. Jay, my childhood friend may he rest in peace, once reached into his game bag to put a dead squirrel into it and pulled out a live one which was then attached to his finger, Squirrels bite hard, the shotgun went immediately to the ground, after that day we cracked all their skulls before we bagged them, later I would cut the end of the same thumb off twice cutting up squirrels but I was never bitten, I had learned at my friends expense. Jerry Clowers had a famous story about a guy who tried to retrieve a raccoon from a tree screaming down just for the guys to start shooting up there, he at that time didn't care who was hit and killed, he just said "Shoot, one of us has got to get some relief!"

  I do believe some people underestimate the violent nature of women and how effective they can be in a life and death struggle when they have been given the mindset and the tools required to endure and effect fights to a successfull outcome. Said tools must be effectively incorporated into some form of live training, not just demonstrated to them. No boxer ever goes to the ring and no grappler ever goes to the mats successfully without giving some of their own blood to the floor in training. Killing is a very dirty affair, even when its undertaken within the lawful perimeter self defense it is pure horror until the silence.
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michael

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2008, 09:34:19 AM »

Sadly, many police officers have LESS training than bad guys do, not more. Many of the bad guys actually practice, i.e. Platt and Matix from the Miami FBI shootout that became so infamous. They aren't the only BG's who train. Looking back through the old Calibre Press Street Survival book, there are many BG's in there who actually train to face the police. Some officers receive quite a bit of training---even good training, but many don't. My former department had a very good firearms program, and it allowed me to prevail on a SWAT op that should have been an unwinable encounter for me, but I went home and he didn't.

My academy that I attended in 86-87 taught the old speed rock, but also taught point shooting, which is what I used to survive my up close and personal encounter. Since that training, I've moved on to a lot of Airsoft FOF training, which is essential training for a gunfight. There simply is no replacement for it, and I would submit that most folks should start with Airsoft training before moving on to live fire.

Another essential tool is being able to shoot on the move, in all directions, not merely moving forward or back. Moving backwards is hazardous at best, and in FOF often ends with you on your back from having tripped over an unseen  obstacle. I am surmising that what is written above about charging the BG is moving directly at him. In my view, the only time that one should charge directly at a BG is if you are in a narrow hallway or room and there is no other option, i.e., you cannot move to the 11:00, 1:00, 9:00, 3:00, etc., which is a far better option if it is available to you.

JM2C.
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**To be a warrior is not a simple matter of wishing to be one. It is rather an endless struggle that will go on to the very last moment of our lives. Nobody is born a warrior, in exactly the same way that nobody is born an average man. We make ourselves into one or the other.** Carlos Castaneda

Lone Wolf

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #42 on: April 02, 2008, 01:09:13 PM »

     This subject is interesting as I just had a student come to class last night who told me he had a gun pulled on him this past week at the local community college.  I of course said "Do tell?"   What happened was he was walking down the sidewalk and heard someone say "I'm going to shoot someone".  So he looks to his right, see's a guy about 20 ft. away reaching into his coat and grabbing for what turned out to be a yellow nurf gun.  Ha ha.  Crisis averted. 
     But my student was freaked out about his lack of action.  Was it because I froze?  Because I saw the yellow and knew it was a nurf pistol?  Etc.  The usual after action second guessing.  So after I told him, hey, it's funny now 'cause we know it was a nurf gun, let's use this as a teachable moment. 
     So we ran thru some distance drills, such as what gap can you close and foil the weapon vs. it's time to run and increase the gap.  We also played with angles and movement to see how those concepts applied.  All in all a good class with a certain amount of urgency for this person, all because of a college kid nurf gun prank.
     We won't talk about the idiot who in this day might have got himself jacked up or killed for a silly prank.
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whitewolf

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #43 on: May 30, 2008, 12:44:08 AM »

Just wanted to  say this probably  is  one of the more important and best  threads i  have  read here or on other forums-one can learn a great  deal  by rereading the various comments here-I always have thought that when confronted by a threat by a preditor and he is within closing distance that you should close -move his weapon away from you and strike repeatedly untill you are in charge of the situation-I never was taught to  back up in a stright line-as Hock  stated take some unarmed hand to  hand tactic training-it will in all probability save your butt-the part about the narcotics officers training was very   interesting also-i hope that future posts are as good as this one is.
whitewolf (el  lobo blanco)
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Mr. Barnett

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Re: Closing the Distance
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2008, 02:48:06 PM »

There's usually no "farting" around with the guys i train with.
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-The natural right of self-defense permits us to oppose an enemy with the same arms he uses, and to make his own rage and folly recoil upon himself-
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