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  • October 21, 2018, 11:23:31 PM
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Author Topic: Too quick to use baton or not?  (Read 6231 times)

Shane

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Too quick to use baton or not?
« on: April 21, 2006, 08:03:58 AM »

A dallas officer was found not quilty of excessive force after he pepper sprayed and used his baton on a man http://www.nbc5i.com/news/8861580/detail.html      Note that a DPS guy that witnessed the incident testified he did. I know you can't tell everything from the dash cam but it looks like he might have been a tad too quick, but thats my opinion officier didnt say suspect was threating but looked like maybe a little resistance I don't know what do ya'll think. What ya'll of handled it the same. I am kind of in the middle on this one.  :)
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TAC

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2006, 12:39:16 PM »

There are lots of cases of 'exessive force' where it's simply about the witnesses and 'victim' not understanding the reality of the street. IE: myth of the duel. It looks worse than it is.
But in this case... I'd say it's bullsh*t. You could tell the cop was p'd off from the start by his tone of voice. The suspect displayed NO threatening behaviour.

Sharif
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Professor

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2006, 04:47:06 PM »



DON'T RUSH TO JUDGEMENT....

Watch the time stamp...this is edited.

6:55:50 --- get out of the car.

6:57:39 --- get down.

6:58:20 -- pepper spray.

7:00:00 -- baton.



The officers has cars on both sides of him....

Trying to get him out of the car for one minute

Telling him to get down for 40 seconds

Letting the pepper spray take effect (one minute 40 seconds) will he is still up.

Finally after 4 minute and 30 seconds he uses a baton.


The total clip show on the news was ~32 seconds.


BEWARE OF THE LIBERAL NEWS....
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Bri Thai

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2006, 07:46:03 AM »

A section of people from all sides of the political spectrum will manipulate facts in order to potray what they want to potray.  It ain't just the liberals.
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2006, 12:06:10 PM »

Prof I agree totally with you on liberal news comment. But it still looks like the guy wasnt a threat. But I guess you have to take into account that he didnt speak english either. He was told to get down and the officiers did place him on ground but it still didnt look like he was resisting to cause use of the baton it looked like the spray had him and he was going to the ground. I still dont believe the baton was warranted by what I saw on the tape and what was testified. Pepper spray okay but baton i dont know. But if this guy knew english I guess none of this would of happened in the first place sounds like  it would be a good commercial to convice illegals to learn the english. Make me want to. :)
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Professor

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2006, 01:33:16 PM »

Prof I agree totally with you on liberal news comment. But it still looks like the guy wasnt a threat. But I guess you have to take into account that he didnt speak english either. He was told to get down and the officiers did place him on ground but it still didnt look like he was resisting to cause use of the baton it looked like the spray had him and he was going to the ground. I still dont believe the baton was warranted by what I saw on the tape and what was testified. Pepper spray okay but baton i dont know. But if this guy knew english I guess none of this would of happened in the first place sounds like  it would be a good commercial to convice illegals to learn the english. Make me want to. :)


How long should the officer explain???   By the tape log it was 5 minutes....

Think about being in between traffic lane for 5 minutes with a person that is not complying to your orders....

Texas LEO come across people that do not speak English very often and do not have to resort to this level of compliance.   Almost all know at least enought Spanish for a person to get the idea within 5 minutes.

Something ain't right with this suspect Lucy...
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2006, 02:21:40 PM »

Something aint right, thats for sure. I know you cant tell from the tape all that occured but strictly from the tape what do you get Prof. Not what could of happened or he said she said just the footage thats all I am asking. To me the footage looks a little iffy. The officer did a good job with the baton though, barely left any marks. Could they of handcuffed him without the baton? I dont know, but it looks like they could of from the tape thats all I am saying. Of course LEO did what he deemed necessary at the time, I probably would of done the same thing at that time but now that we are looking at the tape is there anything we can do different the next time a situation like this occurs. So another LEO doesnt have to waste his time in court defending his innocence.
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Professor

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2006, 04:23:53 PM »


Something aint right, thats for sure. I know you cant tell from the tape all that occured but strictly from the tape what do you get Prof.



Just from the tape snippets.....nothing.    I haven't seen the whole tape, but I can guess 5 minutes of non-compliance and and 1 minute and 40 seconds of continued non-compliance after pepper spray.

It's a tough spot to fight with someone......spread out on the ground is a good start.     

Do you have a doubt that after five minutes that the guy didn't know what he was suppose to do?


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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2006, 05:02:12 AM »

Got a point, this guy should know what to do. Can't argue with that.  :)
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TAC

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2006, 03:43:21 PM »

They could have tried a less physical approach first. One officer approaches and attempts to walk the guy over to the police vehicle using a not-so-obvious control (ie, lightly holding the upper arm) giving appearing as if they're buddies and he just wants to chat. The 2nd officer could be covering in case the guy does resist, at which point they could both jump on him or officer #2 could even draw down if he had to.

I'm not a cop but i'd say that's the way British police officers over here would have done it. They tend to use the "hey, man. It's cool, I just wana talk to you" approach. Considering that most people will only fight if they are provoked or feel cornered I'd say that method works most of the time.

But like Shane said it just didn't seem right. Two officers yelling at Mr Sanchez and then beating him down coz he didn't understand seems kinda wrong. (and I think I have some right-wing veiws!)  :D

Sharif.
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2006, 08:22:18 AM »

I kinda agree with u Sharif and I kinda agree with the Prof. Seemed alittle much, but when it comes down to it I guess the guy should of known what to do isnt getting down on the ground like the universal approach to arrest. I dont know its a tough one. Still could of done something different I think next time both the cops and  Mr. Sanchez will act in a different way.
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Milldog1776

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2006, 01:30:17 PM »

It's such B.S. to use the excuse "I don't speak English"!

You've never seen a cop? They don't have cops in your country of origin? You don't know what a cop screaming and pointing to the ground means? Come on!!!!
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2006, 02:09:42 PM »

Exactly Milldog but in Mexico they point to your wallet. LOL. ;D
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Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength, move on.    -Henry Rollins

TAC

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2006, 03:52:19 PM »

Exactly Milldog but in Mexico they point to your wallet. LOL. ;D

oooooh!
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Adventure

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2006, 05:12:34 PM »

Exactly Milldog but in Mexico they point to your wallet. LOL. ;D

hahahahahahahahahahahaha   lol  ;D

Milldog1776

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2006, 12:20:32 AM »

Exactly Milldog but in Mexico they point to your wallet. LOL. ;D

That's F'd up!

Hilarious, but F'd up!
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2006, 07:34:38 AM »

Exactly Milldog but in Mexico they point to your wallet. LOL. ;D
Absolutely the truth.  ;D
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Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength, move on.    -Henry Rollins

410indashade

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2006, 06:54:22 AM »

In good/bad old days I'd of sure laid hands on that S.O.B. at minimum, I don't play in traffic.  None of this chickenshit pepper spray.  The Prof is right.
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WTAC

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2006, 08:14:50 PM »

I have to chime in. First off resisting suspects ALWAYS go to the ground. The suspect was not complaint. He understood enough English to exit the vehicle, and start to comply with the officers instructions to go to the ground. He then choose not to comply. Now lets talk about “Necessary Force” The only requirement per Graham v Connor 490 U.S 386 (1989) is objectively reasonable force-that force the officer can objectively articulate was reasonable given the active resistance or attempts at evasion by the suspect and the facts known at the time by the officer. The chemical spray was ineffective. The officer then deployed his impact weapons and used it as trained. Here in the U.S the Reasonable Officers Standard –Says the officer doesn’t have to make the best decision. But the conduct of the officer only has to be reasonable based upon the circumstances known to the officer at the time. Hence the not guilty verdict. I am a police officer, D.T instructor and Use of Force instructor.

Aaron


They could have tried a less physical approach first. One officer approaches and attempts to walk the guy over to the police vehicle using a not-so-obvious control (ie, lightly holding the upper arm) giving appearing as if they're buddies and he just wants to chat. The 2nd officer could be covering in case the guy does resist, at which point they could both jump on him or officer #2 could even draw down if he had to.

I'm not a cop but i'd say that's the way British police officers over here would have done it. They tend to use the "hey, man. It's cool, I just wana talk to you" approach. Considering that most people will only fight if they are provoked or feel cornered I'd say that method works most of the time.

But like Shane said it just didn't seem right. Two officers yelling at Mr Sanchez and then beating him down coz he didn't understand seems kinda wrong. (and I think I have some right-wing veiws!)  :D

Sharif.
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2006, 10:16:24 AM »

Still looks kinda fooked up no matter how you justify it. I guess a commander at the DPS training acadamy was wrong too, when he said he thougt it was unreasonable and excessive. And I guess the former officer is no longer a cop because he didn't do anything wrong, right. Oh well. Just another day on the crazy streets of Irving. You gotta do what you gotta do. But we all have to pay the consequences for our actions even cops who believe they havent taken it too far. In the heat of the moment its very easy to get a little carried away. I am sure at that moment the officer believed what he was doing was right and I am glad he was found not guilty. But it still looks a tiny bit fooked up. Just my two cents. 
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Scar tissue is stronger than regular tissue. Realize the strength, move on.    -Henry Rollins

410indashade

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2006, 11:34:16 PM »

Yeah, well it's people like you who make the Kofi Annan's of this world.
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2006, 10:07:25 AM »

Well , opinions are like assholes right.  ;)
As for the Kofi Annan comment that was fooked up. I cant stand that sorry sac of shit.  :o
And the shit still was a tiny bit fooked up. Even when people like you try to justify it, and I bet you try to justify alot of similar occurences don't you. I aint trying to say he was way out of line or any of that shit, or that he was a danger to the community,  just saying tiny bit fooked up. Kind of like your Kofi comment. Oh well.   ::) 
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410indashade

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2006, 05:32:52 PM »

By the way Shane where did you get that fooked-up guote at the bottom of all your postings?  I've been meaning to ask you if you really believe that fooked-up nonsense.  And as the only officially sanctioned member of our society required to use non-negotiable force to gain compliance with the laws of our country, states or it's various localities LEOs need no justification they just need probable cause.  In fact, the guy they were beating into submission will no doubt be hauled into court to justify his actions.  I'm here just to remind all you soft hearted liberals of that.     
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Shane

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2006, 05:50:10 PM »

Ya the guy still dont have a job no more. Keep preaching your shit maybe alot will buy it. But not me. And for your info I aint no damn liberal.And I did not insult you personally did I.  I just saw the story and wanted to share my opinion. There is always some wanna be cowboy types spouting off. Oh well maybe you seen Lethal Weapon too many times.
I am sure Officer Miller would of done something different rather then go through the bullshit he went through again.
And like I said again it looks just a tad bit fooked up. So pull your panties out the wad. I am happy he got off, I probably would of handled the situation the same way in the heat of the moment. But what a god damn waste of time to go through all that bullshit.

P. S  Merry Christmas.  :) 


 
 
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410indashade

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Re: Too quick to use baton or not?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2006, 06:33:19 PM »

Hey I am not saying you personally are to blame for Kofi Annan or the officer in question getting fired, quitting or whatever.  But I am sure that without people of your opinions and sympathies to hold their coats for them the bureucrats and politicians would never dare to take on a man like the officer in question.  They just wouldn't do it I know because I've had similar experiences as most cops have who are out there doing the job.  Now if they're just riding around and looking pretty it's is hard to get into any real trouble.  I don't know all the answers but I do know this, cops are their own worst enemy when it comes to public relations unless he or she has political ambitions they are likely to be totally unaware of how something looks to the unitiated (i.e. civilians).  I mean you can forgive them for that can't you? 8)  They're most likely concentrating on little items like life and death not how something will look on the 6 O'clock News.     
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