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[Kentbob]

Well, I can't really find to much information about this topic.  I don't have a subscription to the Army Times, so I can't get the articles from them.  But, here are a few recent headline subjects.

-Army loosening weight standards?
-Tatoo standards becoming less strict
-Basic Training goes soft?

The last one, about basic training, is probably the most important one.  The article talks about recruits going to their knees if they can't do pushups.  It tells how the drill instructors don't yell at, and harangue the recruits any more.  Instead, they mentor them.  "All right, everyone proceed off the bus in a nice, orderly fashion."  That sort of thing. 

I've thought for years, since Gen. Shinseki approved the Army of One slogan, and gave the black berets to everyone, to make everyone feel more "elite", that the Army standards were going to hell in a handbasket.  I have now concluded that the Army standards have concluded the journey, and the soldiers are going to pay as a result.  God save the Army if we ever have a war with a comparable force, in terms of equipment, training, and soldiers.

Kent

[Trainer]

God save us, if the troops we have cannot fight due to "slight chance of rain" We are going to get fucked hard one of these days. God knows Canadas military isnt up to code.

There are countries out there who have a civilian population better trainined and motivated than a lot of professional military. Time to go back to the old ways methinks.

[Kentbob]

God save us, if the troops we have cannot fight due to "slight chance of rain" We are going to get fucked hard one of these days. God knows Canadas military isnt up to code.

There are countries out there who have a civilian population better trainined and motivated than a lot of professional military. Time to go back to the old ways methinks.

The old ways, being: screaming, yelling, cursing, punching?  In that case, I agree.

Kent

[Trainer]

yep thats what I mean. and why?, cause the military isnt for people who want a nice neat job or to be a "civy in uniform" these are the people who are going to defend my kids. And you can be dam straight i want those folks to be the meanst toughest, sons of bitches we can come up with and armed with kill skills God himself would envoy. Those are the folks I want in my military!

[Shane]

Nobody wants to join. They havent been meeting their quotas. Damn shame this is what has to happen but I guess there isnt any other way, it sucks.

[arnold]

start the draft up again. Worked before, should work again. Or make military service mandatory as it is in many countries. This would really relieve the world of so many ending up as "weenies"

[Shane]

Soldier pleads guilty to attempted murder
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,94797,00.html?ESRC=dod.nl
Do ya'll think this is an example of standards bottoming out. I would like to see the pschology report when he enlisted.

[Rawhide]

Send in a couple of Jarhead drill instructors... that'll sort it all out

[smsybert]

Here in the USA, we need to take a long, hard look at Israel. They draft EVERYBODY, men and women both, for two years. They have women doing EVERY job in the military, including the infantry. What makes these people capable of handling these jobs? Hard training. The DI's in their army are all Special Forces. In the Israeli military, they do an outstanding job of making even the most pacifistic people into hard-core warriors. Everyone knows from BIRTH that they will be drafted, and take their turn. They go in with the right attitude, which is having their mind made up that they are going to defend Israel successfully. That is, they are going to kick major ass. We need to train like they do. Or maybe like the ancient Spartans. And, last but not least, we all need to do a better job of preparing our sons and daughters for savagery.

SMSYBERT

[Hock]

I now have more of a reserved and revised view of the slow disintegration of the military.

The guys before me claimed we were wusses. The guys before them criticized them. We criticized the guys after us. Then, the stress cards came along and well...everyone was talking smack.

But, this terrific ...some Xgeners or whatever, this generation, these troops have done so well in Afghan and Iraq, with such dedication and fervor, I have learned to bite my tongue on these issues. Maybe they weren't made so bad after all?

Maybe the next group won't be so bad as it might seem?

Hock

[Kentbob]

I now have more of a reserved and revised view of the slow disintegration of the military.

The guys before me claimed we were wusses. The guys before them criticized them. We criticized the guys after us. Then, the stress cards came along and well...everyone was talking smack.

But, this terrific ...some Xgeners or whatever, this generation, these troops have done so well in Afghan and Iraq, with such dedication and fervor, I have learned to bite my tongue on these issues. Maybe they weren't made so bad after all?

Maybe the next group won't be so bad as it might seem?

Hock

Well, Hock, I, personally, am trying to stay away from the whole "when I went through basic, it was really hard" mentality.  I realize that basic seems/gets easier for each generation.  But even when I did go through basic, afterwards there were guys who thought basic was fun.  That was 8 years ago, and it seemed to me that that was the wrong sort of attitude to be cultivating amongst the new soldiers.  But, to the best of my knowledge, this is the first time that a publication, even an Army publication, has published an article talking about basic training going soft.  Add to that that so many of the privates that you get in these days can't even pass a P.T. test at minimum standards, and it seems to me that someone somewhere is failing these soldiers.  I'm trying to rail on the Army, or call the new soldiers wusses.  But, something seems to be wrong here.  Initially the changes made to basic training were good.  More time on heavy weapons, more time in the field, more time learning to react to ambushes.  But now, this?  Part of the unspoken objective in basic training is to make the most clean, and distinct break, with civilian life as possible.  If the drills aren't even yelling at the privates anymore, how is that possible? 
Maybe you're right, and the Army Times is right, and this really will produce superior soldiers.  I just don't see how that is possible, without putting them in that stressful environment, and then asking difficult things from them.

Kent

[Hock]

I saw a cartoon once of a bunch of soldiers in a bar with a generation at each table bad talking the younger tables, all in a line. The end table the soldiers were playing the hand-held ninetendo games.

I read about the changes in Army Times.

One good thing was that 40% of the new DIs are combat vets and they are making important changes. Many in subtle, urban combat ways. I was luckly to be trained in this environment where just about everyone was either a Vietnam vet of even a Korean vet.

I think that AIT (advanced training for the great unwashed reading this)  may well compensate for the shortfalls in basic? We hope?  Basic is ...basic (I had a half-hour class on how to salute in basic training).

And nobody is touching the Ranger/Beret/SF training programs...

We use to say that you signed a part of your "rights-to-be-screwed-with," away, when you first joined the Army. If you applied for more, like the Rangers? You theoritically signed another waiver that said,

"Ok, you can screw with me even more, I am asking for it." 

And so it went, until they were damn near killing you in training.

There is a tradition in basic training though, that should be upheld. I guess the Marines uphold it ferverently. I wish the Army would too.

Hock

[smsybert]

The people in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing an outstanding job of bringing freedom to those countries. They have proven themselves to be true warriors. We are proud of all of them. Unfortunately, not too many people today want to get their hands dirty. For every military person doing the job in the War on Terror, we have, what, several hundred, who cringe at the thought of putting a uniform on? Or is it several thousand? It's not good, whatever it is. A bunch of today's younger generation just was not raised right. It ain't like WWII. It's really no surprise, when you look at what happens when a couple of kids get in a fight in the schoolyard. Or maybe just play a little rough. Any kind of rough play is discouraged today, and when a fight takes place, the police are called, and it's a big deal. Whan's the last time you saw a group of kids playing "War" or "Army", or having a mock gunfight, like in the old-time Westerns? Been a while, ain't it? God, I miss the 50's.

SMSYBERT

[Kentbob]

Alright, to bring this back up again.

My cousin just recently joined the Army, to be a refueler.  Now, standard grunt prejudices aside, refueling is not the easy desk job it may sound like to the uninformed.  Its a critical skill area to the mechanized infantry, which is where my cousin is stationed.  My cousin currently does not like his duty assignment, and says that life was better in basic training.


Contrast this with a guy my uncle knows, who joined the Army right after WWII, who said that basic was the most miserable time in his life, but once he got to his unit, life was much better.  And that was back when they had bays instead of individual rooms, and far less freedom and rights than the soldiers of today.  So, I ask, is there a difference?  Do our soldiers need to be trained harder?

I told my uncle that I personally would make the soldiers' lives miserable in every conceivable way during basic training, with only the minimal amount of time spent in the barracks, and the maximum spent living in shelter halves, in the field.  I wish my basic training had been harder, and more challenging.  Am I wrong here?

Kent

[grlaun]

I LOVED Boot camp!  It was hard, nasty and mentally tough.  Just what I needed.  Then came Amphibious Reconnaissance School. WHOOOO that was a bitch!  Staying for basically a whole week (maybe 3 hours of sleep total) on 18 hour patrols and then coming back, debreifing, and starting on the next one.  Lucky me gets the 1st Sgt, 'Nam vet, YAY!  Midweek when we're all starting to hallucinate...

Loved that too!  No wonder I take Arnold's meds...

No regrets on my training!!!!

Semper Fi!!