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[Kentbob]

Has anyone out there watched the new dvd from Cold Steel, called Solid Proof?  I started watching it today, because I have a sick mind, and such things entertain me.  They were doing cuts on everyday materials, like denim and leather.  Not just stabs, but slashes as well.  One of the slashes was a quick jab, with very little body energy behind it.  It cut through a denim sleeve.  I haven't progressed far enough to see if they cut through a leather sleeve, like on a motorcycle jacket.

It got me thinking, and wondering, if these knives are really superior, and we should all carry Cold Steel knives for everyday use, or if any knife with a good edge will cut through jackets better than we think it will.  Any thoughts?


Kent

[Hock]

Or as we said once, why not fight naked then, if clothing does nothing.

In the chaos of a fight, perfect angles of slashing against a dodging body may not be as effective as a perfect angle against a still person. Or slashing, for example, at a bunched up hood of a sweat shirt...MAY...

                     (did everyone read and inderstand the word MAY?)

...help you against a less than perfect slash.

I have noticed that some slashes against multiple layers of clothing worn on a wooden war post, does create some slippage on say-the arm. The top layer of a jacket gets moved with the slash while the sweatshirt underneath doesn't. The angles, less-than-perfect slash on the wood post is worse than the slash on the wood with a sweatshirt and a jacket.

But if I stand before the device, take a deep breath and find my zen moment and slash or stab...its perfect penetration.

It all sucks. But I'd rather wear something and keep moving and hope for a lessor injury.

How often do we stab a tank? And pay for the steel and the technology that stabs a tank? Cold Steel knives are just fine. There are many good, inexpensive knives out there to buy, and only a collector or a fool spends too much on a damn knife. Most knife attacks are done with kitchen knives, which often, strangely resemble some fixed blade knives on sale for hundreds and hundreds of dollars.

Hock

 

[kamagong]

Hey guys!!  I have several of the Cold Steel "Proof" dvds.  I even have the sword one which is interesting.  I do like Cold Steel knives, and Columbia River, and Spyderco, etc.  Hock is right, against a moving opponent, it is tough to get a good solid cut.  Think about knife sparring with the Bogner drill blades, put some paint on them, and you get lighter and darker slash marks.  Plus, people have an annoying habit of moving away from your knife instead of into it like they are supposed to  !  I think the most I have ever paid for a knife is $100 (and it is a Cold Steel) as a "Graduating from college present" for myself.  My spyderco cuts just as good, and I have a couple I paid $15 for that cut just as good.  I will say that I have put my Cold Steel knife through some abuse that broke other blades, however.

Also Hock, I usually hit my zen moment after my 4th or 5th shot of Jim Beam 

[mleone]

Dont forget thugs are getting hip to Tin Can vests underneath.  Even taped up novels and books to absorb stabs and such. Not that every one wears that but Hocks right clothing is a huge factor. There is no absolutes there never was.

Some systems advocate going beyond bullet proof vests stabbing in the arm pit areas and upward underneath the vest. I understand the concept but clothing is a big ignored factor.

[Milldog1776]

Dont forget thugs are getting hip to Tin Can vests underneath.  Even taped up novels and books to absorb stabs and such.

Mario,

Stop reading "The Martialist". It will rot your brain.

[Kentbob]

Dont forget thugs are getting hip to Tin Can vests underneath.  Even taped up novels and books to absorb stabs and such.

Mario,

Stop reading "The Martialist". It will rot your brain.

What in blue blazes is "The Martialist"?



Hock,

You more or less said what I had been thinking in the back of my mind...that the demonstrators are able to get the perfect slash on their targets.  I know we have discussed clothing and the effect of it on knife attacks many times.  I was curious if these knives would make a difference in anyone's opinion.  The only ones that I could see making a big difference are the ones that are hooked LIKE a kerambit, not an actual kerambit. 

Honestly, the only reason I have Cold Steel over other brands is that their marketing got to me before anyone elses.

Kent

[Milldog1776]

Ya know,

I seem to recall Vunak doing a tape about 10 or 15 years ago where he slashed a piece of meat hanging from a hook. Anyone remember that. I think it was geared towards scaring you out of trying to disarm someone.

[mleone]

I dont read that communist propaganda martialist crap. I actually picked that up from Hocks cqc magazine. The novel books in prison as vests. Read the magazine!!!!

[Hock]

seem to recall Vunak doing a tape about 10 or 15 years ago where he slashed a piece of meat hanging from a hook. Anyone remember that. I think it was geared towards scaring you out of trying to disarm someone.

Yup..1980s Vunak Panther video. I was in his organization pretty tight then. He cuts open a hunk of meat. It is scary. I think he was the first guy to do that on film. Oh, I am sure somone else did it first on 16 mm or something, but Vu's film was widely seen.

Also, Lenny McGill then did a "Meat man" video where he cut and stabbed sections of meat tied onto a human form and cut up the form. Then, not to be left out, Mike Janich cut some meat in a video also. Atop the meat was a flannel shirt and these cuts when right on through.

Knives are bad mo fo's.

One thing I learned jacking around with a kerambit (which I think are near worthless compared to a normal knife) was that the curved tip got stuck on the wood underneath, making me think about bones being hooked. What I thought would be a patented simple slash, expecting to slash and then do step two, three and so on...stopped me on slash one. I tied by kerambit up in clothing and it got hooked on bone(wood) This never happed to me with a normal knife.

Up in CT. when Mario hosted me a few months back, we had a student who insisted on using a kerambit trainer. I think Mario was his partner for a few hours(?) The guy could not do the simple knife material because the tip was never where it should be and his slashing was limited. Even simple knife work became impossible without thoughtful modifications and frankly to me, unnaturally movements.

Hock

[mleone]

Since that day Hock I abandon the Kerambit all together. I use to like it and now I think it has become a fantasy weapon. I put some heavy thought into what you said that day.

I am good it at but just decided its not as functional and as practical.

I also abandoned that instructor "He wasnt in learning mode that day". He was simply stuck in show off mode. Funny how some come to seminars to learn and others to teach what they dont even know in the first place.

I had noticed he had problems with it. He couldnt thrust like the rest of us. He also was getting hooked on my clothing, big issue there. The weapon seemed pretty worthless in high speeds not as adaptable.

[Kentbob]

I would say that there is probably a way to learn to use the kerambit properly, iff'n you've got the time, to get around all that snagging stuff, but then I realize that they don't wear a lot of clothing that is going to snag down there in the Philippines and Indonesia.  Which pretty much brings us back to the beginning of the thread.

Kerambits are,...interesting, nonetheless.  Not as interesting as other knives, like the khukri.  But, it still makes the traditionalist in me curious.

Kent

[mleone]

I have worked in the karambit for a long time, it outgrows its usage. While it may look fun it becomes dull.

[kamagong]

I have the copy of that Vunak video where he slashes the hunk of meat.  He used a Spyderco Police Model, which at that time I thought was a practical knife.  Since hooking up with Hock, I have come to see otherwise.  It looks too nasty.  In the vid, Vunak used the meat slashing to show what would happen if you decided you would "take a shot on the forearm".  Hey what can I say, Panther Productions was having a sale at that time.  Besides, it is a good video that has some pretty decent stuff in it. 

I guess going back to the original thing with the Cold Steel vid, it is something used as a marketing ploy to begin with.  In advertising, you are selling the sizzle, not the bacon.

I agree the Kerambit is a pretty useless knife.  I have played around with it a bit when I was studying Mande Muda Silat several years ago when I was training with Guro Jose Connors.  Once I started using a war post, I came to see how useless it was.  I came to see how a lot of the knives I had were pretty useless as well.  Some I was afraid the tip would break off on the stabs, I would destroy the thing, etc.  I started shopping for practicallity as well as affordability.

[TAC]

seem to recall Vunak doing a tape about 10 or 15 years ago where he slashed a piece of meat hanging from a hook. Anyone remember that. I think it was geared towards scaring you out of trying to disarm someone.

Yup..1980s Vunak Panther video. I was in his organization pretty tight then. He cuts open a hunk of meat. It is scary. I think he was the first guy to do that on film. Oh, I am sure somone else did it first on 16 mm or something, but Vu's film was widely seen.

Also, Lenny McGill then did a "Meat man" video where he cut and stabbed sections of meat tied onto a human form and cut up the form. Then, not to be left out, Mike Janich cut some meat in a video also. Atop the meat was a flannel shirt and these cuts when right on through.

Knives are bad mo fo's.

One thing I learned jacking around with a kerambit (which I think are near worthless compared to a normal knife) was that the curved tip got stuck on the wood underneath, making me think about bones being hooked. What I thought would be a patented simple slash, expecting to slash and then do step two, three and so on...stopped me on slash one. I tied by kerambit up in clothing and it got hooked on bone(wood) This never happed to me with a normal knife.

Up in CT. when Mario hosted me a few months back, we had a student who insisted on using a kerambit trainer. I think Mario was his partner for a few hours(?) The guy could not do the simple knife material because the tip was never where it should be and his slashing was limited. Even simple knife work became impossible without thoughtful modifications and frankly to me, unnaturally movements.

Hock

I was at seminar with Joe Hubbard where Ray Dianaldo did a demo with the kerambit. He said there had to be a kind of twisting of the wrist - a jerky movement - in order to do follow-through slashes and hacks. This movement was there to "dislodge the blade from the bone", baring in mind that due to the kerambit's hooked shape it burries itself further into the target.
I dunno. I love the look of kerambits and the demos look cool but I've never used one. But that's what Ray told us anyhow.

Sharif

[Adventure]

Thompson on the video is trying to show what can happen if you leave your Alive hand out there to be hit or if you sacrifice it to get a hit of your own.