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[Trembula]

This category has been a little "dead" since the new board came online, so here is a re-posting of something from the old board...

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For years now I have been wanting to get involved with IDPA (International Defensive Pistol Association) and finally got the opportunity to shoot a match recently.

IDPA is a game, but much more reality oriented than the couple of matches I shot with IPSC rules last Fall or the standard military "bullseye" type pistol qualifications. For those who are not familiar with IDPA, the premise is to use practical sidearms and carry equipment as opposed to "race guns" and other impractical gear.

I think everyone who trains with Hock's gun stuff should try an IDPA match with their "carry" gun and equipment. There isn't as much movement as real life would probably have, but they do emphasize the use of cover, shooting while advancing, retreating, moving sideways, some basic tactics of which targets to engage first, reloading/magazine changes, drawing from concealment, and other things that a lot of gun owners rarely, if ever train.

Something that Hock has done in a couple of seminars is to set up some standard scenarios common in the shooting school training syllabi (El Presidente for example) with live people instead of cardboard targets. Using pellet guns or rubber band guns, the trainee then tries to shoot the same course with the "bad guys" shooting back. It is a little different than just punching paper at the range. However it is a useful reality check and a fun and logical extension of scenarios you might of tried in an IDPA match.

Last Sunday the targets weren't shooting back, but I was shooting, moving (a little), and engaging different targets at different ranges with a real gun. Somewhere I think, it is important to practice your gun stuff with "real" guns and experience the recoil, noise, handling characteristics, et al in as dynamic of an environment as you can safely train in.

The biggest problem most folks (including me) seemed to have was with one handed (especially weak hand) shooting and shooting while moving. Most ranges won't let you practice the latter and most folks don't train the former enough. IDPA might be your only chance in your area to practice shooting and moving without getting kicked off the range by the safety officer!

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Questions, Comments? Are there any other IDPA shooters lurking around here?

Dan

[michael]

Dan,
I haven't shot IDPA yet, but used to shoot IPSC. I recently joined a new club that encompasses 750 acres, including a 1,000 yard rifle range and action pistol range, among others. They have an IDPA club there, so I will be joining it soon. I think the big thing to remember about shooting games is that they are indeed games and some things that you will need to do in a real-life gunfight (BTDT) are not allowed in matches. However, any trigger time you get is good, and dealing with the stresses in a competitive match directly translates to stresses, to a lesser degree, in a real confrontation.

[Professor]

This category has been a little "dead" since the new board came online, so here is a re-posting of something from the old board...

---

The biggest problem most folks (including me) seemed to have was with one handed (especially weak hand) shooting and shooting while moving. Most ranges won't let you practice the latter and most folks don't train the former enough. IDPA might be your only chance in your area to practice shooting and moving without getting kicked off the range by the safety officer!

----

Questions, Comments? Are there any other IDPA shooters lurking around here?

Dan

My name is Jeff Allen and I'm an IDPA shooter.


I like IDPA and it is the "closest", as a civilian, that I can get to live training with a pistol for a relatively low monetary investment.   

I like paintball, but the spray and pray mentality is has wrecked what was (in the late 80's) a great stall, strategy, team play, killing game....oh well.

I like airsoft pistol for cheap force-on-force exercises.....but, people are still much too willing to take chances that they wouldn't take in real life.

I really like the simunition....but this is still expensive for civilians.   I think this is probably our next big step in force-on-force training.

I really like the FATS machines, reactive (movie driven) scenerios.

IDPA is good for what it does....stresses real life equipments (including duty gear for cops).   It stresses scenerio training.  It stresses bullets down range and time on target.  I like the rules, but I don't always like the scenerios....especially multiple goblins.

I shoot a 1911....here's the scenerio:   Four goblins in a straight line at 7 yards.   Mozambic?sp? each.   (12 or more shots).

This does neccessitate a magazine change, and cover.....both good things to practice under stress (and a problem left out of airsoft).   However, it means that I put 3 in the first goblin, three in the second one, and the third and fourth blast me full of holes.


Rather, the scenerio would be much better created by putting a round in each of the four and then another in each and then another in each (if needed).    This is one of the reasons that I prefer steel be used rather than paper targets.    It is much better to hide the steel behind the paper target or a balloon to show that the attacker is no longer functioning.


What we really need is IDPA with moving and reactive targets, but the cost is extreme and the dangers of accidents increases.   I suggest trying all five of the above listed types of training and get lots of trigger time in lots for different situation and training environments......

YMMV

Jeff



 

[Trembula]

Jeff:

"What we really need is IDPA with moving and reactive targets, but the cost is extreme..."

One of the more fun things about going to the state/regional championship matches is the availability of moving targets and generally ranges with more sophisticated (and expensive) toys to play with (...err shoot).

The scoring for IDPA and popular demand (to an extent) have a lot to do with stage design and the courses of fire. The target discourages the "zipper" technique espoused by instructors such as John Farnum, there is no consideration for "mobility kills" to the pelvis, rarely, if ever, shooting from retention positions, and not much stuff down on the ground. As Hock has said before, the "gun guys" don't like getting their clothes dirty, plus most of the IDPA shooters I have seen are in their 40s to 60s and don't relish the thought of doing anything more athletic than walking.

Some of the stages with multiple opponents are stressing "tactical sequence" of shooting each one once, then going back and finishing them off with whatever sequence of shots the course design calls for. What IDPA does not take into account is the relative effectiveness of each calibre... methinks intuitively that one .45 shot to center of mass should be the rough equivalent of two 9mm hits to the same area... 'twould go a long way towards reducing the number of reloads for folks in CDP and the folks shooting certain wheelguns.

Dan

[michael]

The power factor thing reverts to IPSC rules, which is one thing I believe IDPA has on IPSC. With modern bullet designs, there is no practical difference between effectiveness in real-world shootings between a 9mm, .40 or .45, so I  disagree that one hit with a .45 should equal two hits with a  9mm. No handgun is a death-ray and they are all so close in performance if the proper ammunition is used that one is not superior to the other. I do think the stages should be more practical in regards to shooting from retention, on the ground, etc.

[Professor]

Jeff:

"What we really need is IDPA with moving and reactive targets, but the cost is extreme..."

One of the more fun things about going to the state/regional championship matches is the availability of moving targets and generally ranges with more sophisticated (and expensive) toys to play with (...err shoot).

The scoring for IDPA and popular demand (to an extent) have a lot to do with stage design and the courses of fire. The target discourages the "zipper" technique espoused by instructors such as John Farnum, there is no consideration for "mobility kills" to the pelvis, rarely, if ever, shooting from retention positions, and not much stuff down on the ground. As Hock has said before, the "gun guys" don't like getting their clothes dirty, plus most of the IDPA shooters I have seen are in their 40s to 60s and don't relish the thought of doing anything more athletic than walking.

Some of the stages with multiple opponents are stressing "tactical sequence" of shooting each one once, then going back and finishing them off with whatever sequence of shots the course design calls for. What IDPA does not take into account is the relative effectiveness of each calibre... methinks intuitively that one .45 shot to center of mass should be the rough equivalent of two 9mm hits to the same area... 'twould go a long way towards reducing the number of reloads for folks in CDP and the folks shooting certain wheelguns.

Dan

I've really enjoyed my involvement in IDPA -- A well designed stage is great....a poorly designed stage can train you to get killed....

I agree with you on most point....IDPA is a great tool.

I'm not even going to get in the caliber vs. caliber discussion.....

[Trembula]

Jeff... "I'm not even going to get into the caliber vs. calibre discussion..." - Smart move... I am sorry I even brought it up.

- Dan

[Lance_Larsen]

As the first page says, intros first.  Hmm... where do I start? I've taken several of Hock's seminars, I've spent a lot of time on empty handed fighting and knife fighting.  And I've spent a lot of time on concealed carry and using a handgun.  I've done a lot of training with Airsoft guns, and I have learned a lot from it.  I think that what you get out of something is directly proportional to what you put into it.  I've been using Airsoft guns for about 6 or 7 years now--about 4 years of really trying to get the most out of them as training tools.  I've been in target shooting competitions, I've done some IDPA, and spent my fair share of time at the range.  I learned that it doesn't matter how much brass is on the floor, you don't get better by just pulling the trigger over and over.  Good quality training makes a huge difference.

I like airsoft pistol for cheap force-on-force exercises.....but, people are still much too willing to take chances that they wouldn't take in real life.

I'll lay my cards on the table here and now--I'm a big proponent of Airsoft as a training tool.  There just is nothing like having a real human opponent who wants to shoot you just as bad as you want to shoot him.  If you find that people are taking chances with Airsoft guns that they wouldn't take in real life, then you need to upgrade your equipment.  I use an Airsoft handgun that shoots 350 FPS, and it draws blood at close range.  Perhaps moving up to an Airsoft gun with more power would put things in a more realistic perspective.  The more it hurts, the less likely someone is to take a risk, and that is what makes it realistic.

You can buy a gas gun that will cycle like a real firearm for $120 direct from Japan, and use Green Gas and .25g BB's in it and get really good performance for a very reasonable amount of money.  When you get into the 300-400 FPS range Airsoft changes from a toy into a tool.  If your only experience with Airsoft is a $20 spring gun then you really have no idea what Airsoft has to offer.  We civilians have limited options, so we have to make the best of what is available to us.  Statistics show that handgun engagements are typically fought at conversation distance, and at that distance Airsoft excels.

I've used most of the tools mentioned, and they all have their good points and shortcomings.  I think the best thing to do is to get as much out of each as you can, and make an effort to realize the weaknesses of the tools you are using.  Then try to make up for those weaknesses with whatever other tools you have available.

As highly as I regard Airsoft, I realize that it is just another tool with it's own set of limitations.  But it also has a lot to offer.  We do the whole enchilada--concealed handgun vs. concealed handgun, concealed knife vs. concealed handgun, fights that become ground fights that suddenly turn into gun fights, multiple opponents with and without weapons vs. a single concealed carry guy who must transition back and forth between lethal and non-lethal force,, the list is endless.  If you aren't getting as much out of Airsoft as you would like, talk to me, perhaps I can be of assistance.

[Heath]

Lance,

  My experience with Airsoft has only begun this year in training. I have used other sim training but hearing beeps really doesnt keep you on your toes. Paintball is the only time i really didnt want to get hit at close range and it kept me on my toes..who do you buy the Airsoft from? Can you tell me what are choice weapons for you? Price ranges? Sorry. you offered for us to pick your brain so i am going to be asking questions about Airsoft..i see many cheaply made ones that would be a start but i have not purchased (yet) an airsoft...give me your advice..thanks

[Professor]

As the first page says, intros first.  Hmm... where do I start? I've taken several of Hock's seminars, I've spent a lot of time on empty handed fighting and knife fighting.  And I've spent a lot of time on concealed carry and using a handgun.  I've done a lot of training with Airsoft guns, and I have learned a lot from it.  I think that what you get out of something is directly proportional to what you put into it.  I've been using Airsoft guns for about 6 or 7 years now--about 4 years of really trying to get the most out of them as training tools.  I've been in target shooting competitions, I've done some IDPA, and spent my fair share of time at the range.  I learned that it doesn't matter how much brass is on the floor, you don't get better by just pulling the trigger over and over.  Good quality training makes a huge difference.

I like airsoft pistol for cheap force-on-force exercises.....but, people are still much too willing to take chances that they wouldn't take in real life.

I'll lay my cards on the table here and now--I'm a big proponent of Airsoft as a training tool.  There just is nothing like having a real human opponent who wants to shoot you just as bad as you want to shoot him.  If you find that people are taking chances with Airsoft guns that they wouldn't take in real life, then you need to upgrade your equipment.  I use an Airsoft handgun that shoots 350 FPS, and it draws blood at close range.  Perhaps moving up to an Airsoft gun with more power would put things in a more realistic perspective.  The more it hurts, the less likely someone is to take a risk, and that is what makes it realistic.

You can buy a gas gun that will cycle like a real firearm for $120 direct from Japan, and use Green Gas and .25g BB's in it and get really good performance for a very reasonable amount of money.  When you get into the 300-400 FPS range Airsoft changes from a toy into a tool.  If your only experience with Airsoft is a $20 spring gun then you really have no idea what Airsoft has to offer.  We civilians have limited options, so we have to make the best of what is available to us.  Statistics show that handgun engagements are typically fought at conversation distance, and at that distance Airsoft excels.

Got one, love it (1911).....it's great for indoor room clearing and backyard practice...If I could only get extra mags....It would be a very useful tool....

[Lance_Larsen]

Lance,

  My experience with Airsoft has only begun this year in training. I have used other sim training but hearing beeps really doesnt keep you on your toes. Paintball is the only time i really didnt want to get hit at close range and it kept me on my toes..who do you buy the Airsoft from? Can you tell me what are choice weapons for you? Price ranges? Sorry. you offered for us to pick your brain so i am going to be asking questions about Airsoft..i see many cheaply made ones that would be a start but i have not purchased (yet) an airsoft...give me your advice..thanks

No problem at all!  I'm always happy to help someone out with Airsoft for training.

If you want to do handgun training then you should expect to pay up to $150 for a decent gun (you may get one for $120 if you look around.)  You need a gas gun that will cycle like a real firearm, stay open on the last round, then you put in a new mag (with BB's and gas) and drop the slide and continue just like you would with a real gun.

The brand I usually recommend is KSC.  I like KSC guns because one of the biggest problems with gas guns is that a cheap one will have mags that eventually leak.  Leaky mags suck.  KSC makes solid guns and mags that don't leak gas.  I'd suggest you buy them direct from Japan, since it will be a lot cheaper than anywhere locally.  I've had pretty good luck with these two places:

  http://www.dentrinityshop.com/index_ie.jsp

  http://www.wgcshop.com/

There is always a chance your gun won't get through customs, but these guys sell a lot of guns and they don't usually run into problems.  I've bought lots of guns through them and never had a problem, and my friends have done fine also.  The only problems I've heard about involve enormous orders (1000+ guns).

You can shop around in the U.S., but my advice is to avoid eBay.  We've had some problems with eBay guns.  You never know what they have done to them before you get them.

Some places will say "KSC Japan" and "KSC Korea" or some other place.  Pay the extra 10 or 20 bucks and get "KSC Japan".  They make cheap knock-offs in other countries, but they are never the same quality, always get the Japanese version and you won't be disappointed.

You'll want to use Green Gas in your gun.  That will get a factory gun shooting roughly 300 FPS+ at room temperature.  When it's below about 40 degrees F you will get less performance.  On hot summer days you'll get better performance.  Shoot .25g BB's of a decent quality (we usually use Excel brand).  They sell mini red paintballs, but they make a mess of the gun--stick with hard plastic.

Always wear a full face mask, especially at close quarters.  I've shot people's teeth out with a factory rifle at 25 yards.  These are not toys.

I try to get something as close to what I carry as possible.  And get a couple spare mags for practicing mag changes.

Tokyo Marui makes the best AEG rifles, and some of the guys in my circle have bought their gas handguns.  They make decent stuff, but I'm still more sold on KSC.  KSC has an excellent line of Glocks.  Their Glock 18 is fun, but the Hop-Up on it (the "Hop-Up" puts a back-spin on the BB to give it more range) tends to be permanently adjusted too high.  I think if you went with a semi-auto only Glock from KSC you would be quite satisfied with it.  A metal slide is a nice upgrade.  The plastic slides used to break fairly often with Green Gas, but they have reinforced them recently so they stand up to the higher power gas now.

They have a lower power gas, but it doesn't cycle the gun as well, and they make a Red Gas which will blow your gun apart after a few rounds and will give you more velocity than you would want even at a good distance.  We always use Green Gas, and I still have a mark on my arm from a hit I got almost a year ago.  You'll know when you get hit.

If you are fighting at close range I highly recommend a pair of Hellstorm Navigunner gloves from Blackhawk Industries (www.blackhawkindustries.com).  They are kind of rubbery on the backs of the fingers, which seems to absorb BB impacts very well.  We had one guy with no gloves get hit at point blank range on the nail bed and it turned his nail black for 2 months.  Another guy was wearing the gloves mentioned above and took a point blank hit to the knuckle (that REALLY hurts) and it barely left a mark.  It's counter-productive to  seriously hurt yourself while learning to defend yourself.

If you have any more questions don't hesitate to ask.  I've been at this for a while and I know most of the pitfalls.  Used correctly I think you'll find it an excellent tool.

-Lance

www.desmoinesairsoft.com
Check the website to see all the guys and their guns (they look just like the real thing).  We have a discussion forum also.  We're always happy to help people out.

Oh, I almost forgot, I run an audio show formatted kind of like a talk radio show where my co-host and I talk about all kinds of Airsoft stuff.  It's just packed with information, and you can download a show free and listen to it any time you like on an MP3 player.  Or just listen to it on your PC.  We update the show whenever we get the time (which varies).  But it does have a lot of useful information in it.  The website for the show is:  www.airsoftradio.com

[Heath]

Thanks for the info!  I will check that stuff out when i get home. In class, we use plasic pellets ( balls). I havent used BB's. I know that pain makes a person decide things more quickly..hahaha Are there any pellets that you would recommend? Will those guns tear apart the plastic pellets. I know that new students will shun BB's..

  Also, i will download your talks online and listen to a couple..but i hate to say that will probably bring more questions..hahaha

[Lance_Larsen]

Bring the questions on!  I can't think of a better place to spread this kind of information.  I've been kind of working in a vacuum and not sharing a lot of the stuff I've learned.  I like Hock's system all around, so it's nice to be adding a little instead of just soaking it all in like a sponge.

I'm not sure what kind of plastic pellets you are referring to, if you have a web link I'd like to take a look at them.  What we use are solid hard plastic BB's, and if you fire them point blank at metal they will fragment into about 8 little pieces.  One time we had a guy take cover behind a metal screen like you would have in a screen door.  One of the guys on my team shot right through the metal screen and hit him in the head.  As I said before, these are not toys.

I hate to hijack the subject here, maybe the moderator can move this discussion to a different thread so we don't gum up a good conversation on IDPA.

[Professor]

Hey everyone.....Lance is starting a new thread....look for it..

I'm not a moderator...but here's your opening!!! 
 

 

[Heath]

these are the plastic pellets that i am talking about...and i also sent a message to you Lance to not hijack this thread anymore..also, if we move the topic of Airsoft to a fresh topic i will delete all my posts from this one...