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[Hock]

Wardog wrote...

The Bible tells us that:
Adam lived 930 years. (Genesis 5:5)
Seth lived 912 years.(Genesis 5:
Methuselah lived 969 years.(Genesis 5:27)
And Noah lived 950 years. (Genesis 9:29)

Well of course, I think all that is nutso. The same person who believes that also refuses to believe other things, like ghosts or UFOs. (If God isn't an alien, not of this Earth? What is he?) but it seems if you sit someone in a pew? And nuero-linguisticly sing/chant some phrases, they'll eventually believe anything. (especially if ya' start em' out really young!)

But, on the ages of those old-timers, perhaps we need to defer to Lawyer Clarence Darrow in the TN. Scopes Monkey trial when he asked , "how long was a day, back then?" Darrow asked the reigious court at the Scopes trail, "How long was a day? A year? Back then?"

The actual history of the clock was obsessively researched for the great book-the Discoverers, an international bestseller...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0394726251/qid=1147818445/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-0722057-9557506?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

...that came out in the 1980's. Worldwide struggles to define time and build clocks persisted for several hundreds of years, many of them B.C. years. About 20% of this giant book was on the clock alone.

Most ancient civilizations used the four seasons and planting to work that out. I always figured the really old folks of the bible...they just didn't measure age real well. I still don't believe if we'll eat a strict diet of bibical Wheaties, we'll all live to be 1,000 like Pat Roberson thinks.

(I actually watch Pat several times a week. I find all TV evangalists absolutely fascinating and watch all of them frequently. I am mesmerized by their ability to...mesmorize. That and collect money. George Carlin once said that God created the universe, but...he has this problem with money. He always needs more money.)

My hero Joseph Campbell (The Power of Myth) the best seller and all around famous guy, is one on a long string of folks like Alan Watts and

former nun- Karen Armstrong,
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0330/p16s01-bogn.html

et. al...were all so religious once themselves and studious of all religions, that they eventually could not select any single one for themselves, Campbell once said, "humanity made a mistake when it took its myths too seriously" Boy, I agree completely.

Joe Campbell...
http://www.jcf.org/index2.php

I don't think we have a handle or understanding on the creation of this universe no more than an ant watching a passenger train go by.

"What is that thing? Where did it come from? And, where is it going?"

An ant just ain't ever gonna' get it! Nor are we for a long time. Maybe we will evolve our little brains to the point someday we can. OOps. there 's THAT dirty Scopes word.

I watch the balancing act of religions and good and bad points. I like people to be happy and I leave them be, but when they start screwing my chance to work on a stem cell, restrict condoms to countries dieing of AIDS, or they start jihading around, or the world gets whipped into a frenzy of war, I see the real detriment of religion.

Ya got cha' western religions, ya' India religions, ya' middle east, ya' Japanese, the islanders, all of them the chosen ones and camgaigning, some killing to prove it. Religions are largely a demographic phenomina. Depends on the...well, depends on where the ant hill is you live on. 

For one, Lemaitre’s calculated rate of expansion did not work out. If the universe was expanding at a steady rate, the time it had taken to cover its radius was too short to allow for the formation of the stars and planets.

Well all that is some heady talk alright. An ant has no answers. Nor do I. I know something really cool made all this. Don't know what it is. Don't think anyone does. Some kind of God made it. Your God? My God? Hmmmm...don;t know. That is why there is myth. The power of myth. Its just...we seem to take it so damn seriously. 

I watch these Religion/Freedom Fighter conversations rip by like that ant watching a passenger train zip down the track.

Hock

(Hey, nobody has to answer or comment on this one, I was just genuflecting on the old guys of the opening act of the bible. Man, think of all the football seasons! Imagine living that long...eventually the Cowboys will have to start winning again.)

Oh, and read The End of Faith by Sam Harris
http://www.samharris.org/

[Professor]

Thank Chief,

You've done it now......a purely religious thread.



Popcorn.........check.
Coffee...........check.
Comfy Chair....check.


This ought to get good.

[Kentbob]

Yeah, between this thread, and the political threads, I'd say this section of the forum is due to self-destruct.  YIKES!  Good post, though, Hock.  Reminds me of your "Ultimate Tea" post a while back.


Kent

[arnold]

Speaking of self destruction, bought a new gun yesterday to add to the collection. Finally got to see my buddy. Lotsa coll stuff still left, but should only buy one gun at a time due to the difference in paperwork if I buy more than one a week. So let's see, 1 gun a week, times 52, times how long I'm gonna live ( see previous posts on Bible characters) and boy, will I have a shit load of guns. I'll have to start my own museum next to the huge new store and drive throug liquor facility. Then I'll have my onw munitions factory to go along with all this. So many great plans, only 920 years to get eveything done.

[mleone]

I watch the balancing act of religions and good and bad points. I like people to be happy and I leave them be, but when they start screwing my chance to work on a stem cell, restrict condoms to countries dieing of AIDS, or they start jihading around, or the world gets whipped into a frenzy of war, I see the real detriment of religion

It seems like any religion is nothing but a mere system of beliefs.
When beliefs are engrained into us so deeply and so passionately.We become angry extreme control freaks.
 Our beliefs control action and shape our lives. There are those who are non-religious who have beliefs and they also cultivate their actions. But the question I always ask is "What portion of good is really being produced by this religion" ? When people down the religion or attack it... I always ask "what portion of what they do is good"? This is almost always left out....

Beliefs Control our Decisions, Decisions control our Actions.

Religion has been the cause of many wars.
Since the begining of time.....Kosovo and Israel and so on...

Evil and physically hurtfull beliefs cultivate physicaly hurtfull actions....

[Wardog]

People also seem to gloss over that religion is essentially geographical. Different parts of the World have different dominant religions. If you are born in the West you are pre-dominantly Christian. Middle East...Islamic. You are born in to a religion and stick with it. It's not due to deep thought and investigation or a true miracle or vision. Mommy and Daddy took you to Church ot Mosque and that is what you are. You continue it. And you are right and everyone else is wrong.

[Big Rob]

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
- Albert Einstein

[Wardog]

For the record, I have never said God doesn't exist. I honestly don't know. But I can honestly say none of the organized religious fantasies smack of having it figured out. I believe that the only intelligent thing one can say about God is that they don't know. You can believe anything or have faith in anything but you don't honestly know. When you go for the big sleep you will either be done or have all the answers you were looking for.

[mleone]

Faith is beleiving in god even though he doesnt show himself.
Some people are so proof based and will never understand.
I dont need proof to have a set of beliefs that work for me.
I dont need proof to be a better person. I need faith in myself and faith in a belief system that keeps me positive in life. Quite honestly its better than nothing at all. Just like agnostics, I have met quite a few. Often enough they are quite bitter upset angry at the world. Its not because they dont have god.That has nothing to do with it.. Its becaue they have no belief at all. They dont even believe in themselves.

They become Negaholics....Full of negativity. Loaded with it..... Quick to disprove a belief system. Quick to put down the pledge of allegiance. Quick to bitch and moan about just about everything. Taking off their hats at national anthem.

Religion is nothing more than a belief system.
The media is loaded with negativity about religion as well. We are some what attracted to "knowing" about bad things. Thats part of our nature of concern.

If the news media was always good we wouldnt care and we would smile and keep on going...

If I had a prejudice it woulndt be black white or fudge ripple. It would be againsts negative people who are too miserable and too powerless to change their lives.  So my point is a beleif system is better than none at all. Beliefs shape our lives... Having no belief is a cause set in motion!!!!!!

My dad use to say their are 3 people.

People who discuss ideas
People who discuss events
People who discuss people.
I chose to be the first one as much as I could.

[Wardog]

Rob,
  I agree. If God exists i highly doubt he/she is overly concerned with you getting a hard on for someone walking down the street. Lusting in your heart, so to speak. Or being Gay or whatever.

 When I look at the planet i think, man this is way to complicated to have been created. But evolution isn't exactly convincing either. Species evolve but there is virtually nothing to substantiate cross-species evolution. Fish to Dog to Monkey to Man for instance. We may know the answers one day but I doubt it. Unless of course one dies and goes to another plane of existence where all the answers are forthcoming. I kind of hope for that one but lean towards worm food.

[Big Rob]

"I know nothing except the fact of my ignorance."
- Socrates

The only thing I concern myself with in life is if what I'm doing/being serves me and the world in which I live. Everything else is trivial.

[Scott]

Hi Hock,

I don’t take Genesis literally either. But neither did Saint Augustine http://www-astronomy.mps.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Essays/augustin.html

I really don’t care to argue religion or theology. Moral theory and philosophy, yes. Religion, No. But there are factual consequences to the moral theory one chooses. Morality is either real having universally objective standards or it is not, being only subjective, relative with no objective standards at all. A person can choose either theory but there are those epistemic consequences that will follow that choice.

Like Arnold, Professor, and most others I choose moral realism – the belief there is a real distinction between freedom fighters and terrorists. But the consequences of making that choice is that we must reject materialism, physicalism, and scientific naturalism -empiricism - as the only valid means of know reality. On the flipside, the consequences of accepting materialism and scientific naturalism – empiricism - as the only valid means of know reality is the necessity of rejecting moral realism for moral relativism and all that follows from that. There is nothing in the scientific method that supports a belief in moral progress or human rights philosophy. A secular humanism that holds to both materialism and the universalism in human rights must be an oxymoron. There is no religion in this paragraph. It’s all rational moral theory taught in ethics.

I like Campbell and have a number of his tapes and books. I have to say I was disappointed when discovered he fell for the hoax, Chief Seattle’s letter in “The Power of Myth”. IIRC the letter was written by a white-guy in the 1970’s for an environmental TV program http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/fake.html.  I have no problem with saying my religion is my mythology. I will never tell anyone there religion (or non religion) is wrong. Do I have doubts about my spiritual beliefs? Absolutely, so why argue over the subject? 

Evangelists? Can’t say I watch any….I do however like Father Corapi’s style. He had a gunman in his yard late on night: “I looked at my rosary, then I looked at my Bible and my stature of Mary, and then I looked at the loaded 45 on my nightstand and said praise the Lord!”

<Sigh> I’m not in favor of restricting condoms in Africa. But on African AIDS, there is something a miss in the data. The AIDS epidemic has its professional skeptics: http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/Michael%20Fumento/2005/04/14/15108.html
http://www.mfc.org/SOS/AIDS%20Epidemic/The%20African%20heterosexual%20AIDS%20myth.pdf . If less than 50% of people have access to health care how are they so sure all these people have AIDS? http://www.africa2015.org/factspoverty.html
It’s going to get worst: http://www.overpopulation.org/Africa.html I read Africa’s population grew by 300 million in the last 30 years, more than the current population of the US.

Let me suggest another book, “Fire in the Mind” by science writer George Johnson. http://www.santafe.edu/~johnson/fire.html I think it’d go along with your ant analogy.

Scott

[Hock]

"There is nothing in the scientific method that supports a belief in moral progress or human rights philosophy. A secular humanism that holds to both materialism and the universalism in human rights must be an oxymoron. There is no religion in this paragraph. It’s all rational moral theory taught in ethics."

I think the sheer genetics of survival as a race and as a single human being create a standard of survival which evolves into mutual cooperation, which evolves into societies and laws, and then creates religions and gods.

I think we can go back beyond postulations on things like the scientific method and moral relativism. I have a whole other entry on the difference between freedom figthters and terrorists. It is completeley non-political and non-religious, because those viewpoints can be debated and parsed...but I have to write it small enough to fit here...and a blog is due...and the next book is due...and, and, and...

Hock

[Hock]

I have to say I was disappointed when discovered he fell for the hoax, Chief Seattle’s letter in “The Power of Myth”. IIRC the letter was written by a white-guy in the 1970’s for an environmental TV program http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/progress/fake.html.

I gather Campbell once quoted the Indian Chief. THAT is a pretty small thing really and "falling for the hoax" sounds a lot like he was part of the Kennedy assassination.

I do not go for all the new-age banter that Cambell and others often speak, but I look it over....and look over it... 

Hock

 

[Wardog]

As Anthony Robbins has been known to say: Send Check or Money Order to....

My favorite is the pair of relationship experts who have something like 8 marriages between them and one was to each other. Both are on Robbins payroll(or were ) to improve your love life. Want to keep love fresh? Marry a different person every few years.