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  • May 22, 2012, 09:02:31 AM
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Author Topic: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?  (Read 1560 times)

Hock

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2006, 09:59:31 AM »

"Take what is useful, discard the rest."

How's about a better rule

"Take what is useful, and then discard the rest, MAKE A SYSTEM ON IT"

Now there's a real plan.
Save everyone a lot of time

Hock

Big Rob

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2006, 01:41:23 PM »

How's about a better rule

"Take what is useful, and then discard the rest, MAKE A SYSTEM ON IT"


I think that’s a great idea as long as your designing a system for yourself, I personally wouldn't try to convince others that specific techniques work, just because I have made them work.
In my personal opinion self defense is about self discovery, as Bruce lee said “Art is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method, the less the opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom.”
There will always be things that we have in common with some but never with all. We are all unique in size, shape, strength, mentality, temperament, overall ability so what may work for me may not work for you.
I suggest to never impose our successes or failures on others. We should seek only to show others a direction and then observe the results, whether success or failure we should fully support either outcome because the student is never wrong they are simply doing the best they can with the resources they have available at that time. If we allow our students as well as ourselves to be free to experience, experiment, and express on a regular basis we will all see growth.
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Hock

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2006, 02:22:12 PM »

Well I have long said that-
"I cannnot tell what your 10 or 12 favorite things are for your shape and size and strength"

That is for someone to develop through experimentation for themselves.

But an instructor needs to know a bunch of good things to expose his or her students to good material, so they can make pick their own favorites based on their needs.

This collective of "good things"...is what I am talking about.
You shouldn't have to take 5 years of karate, 2 years of Thai, 11 years of jujitsu, just to get your favorite things. Just for your student to get his favorite things. There is a smarter collection to start with.

Hock

Big Rob

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2006, 03:09:46 PM »

I agree I was just expressing my own personal claification of the concept.  ;D
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JimH

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2006, 08:11:23 PM »

The problem with discussing the Police and use of aiki arts, joints locks,control,pain and throws is that the Majority of police get little in the way of H2H and most departments do not have time to teach much more than a few strikes and kicks,some teach some aiki material but little.

Most Officers do not train in anything outside of the department training and they all say they will rely on the Pistopl and other weapons over going to H2H.

At the Hapkido school I attend,the Head Instructor was a Sergeant in the NYPD training unit,so we get a few Officers,Security,Body guards and Bouncers to the class,these people are the exception rather than the rule.

When we discuss the practicality of any art,style or system we must do so with people who train on some sort of regular basis,as we must keep the training in the short term memory bank,so we do not have to waste seconds or fractions of seconds searching the long term for a response when the crap hits the fan.

To me the  average Police Officers are not a good place to look at a practical way to do anything as they spend minimum time in H2H,Minimum time in psitol craft use,Minimum time in baton and spray use.
We do find exceptions or Elite unit Officers within departments that know the need and train hard on and off duty ,but that is not the norm for most.

Just my two cents
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Milldog1776

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2006, 11:39:26 AM »



as Bruce lee said “Art is the expression of the self. The more complicated and restricted the method, the less the opportunity for expression of one's original sense of freedom.”



Yet the foundation of JKD is the Straight Lead Punch. One of the most complicated techniques in martial arts. Bruce could be very self contradictory at times.

But I see where you (and Bruce) are coming from.
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Crazyguywithasword

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2006, 10:37:44 PM »

Isn't the straight lead just a jab?
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Kentbob

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2006, 08:32:23 AM »

Actually I thought the foundation of JKD was being able to adapt and change strategies for all situations.  And really, who says that JKD has to have only one foundation?  Milldog, for you it may be the straight lead.  Personally, I like the theories of JKD, tactics, techniques, and procedures.  When we say,"Absorb what is useful, discard the rest, build a system on it.", shouldn't we be talking about more than the straight lead over the front kick?  Shouldn't a saying like that encompass your priorities of mobility over stability?  Throughout the course of my martial arts training one of my biggest priorities has become moving to avoid being hit, and hitting the other guy any way that I can.  Why?  Because I just don't like getting hit in the head.  This is the reason that I try to emphasize my triangle footwork in my practice.  And its also the reason that I like arts like Aikido, Kali, Arnis, Silat, Kuntaw, and any of the "softer" styles.  Even though I'm a big person, I recognize that there is a more efficient use of my strength than training to slug it out with someone who may end up being bigger than me. 
In closing, I would like to point out that when we say"Absorb what is useful, discard the rest", I believe its important to think about the bigger picture of tactics, techniques, and procedures, as opposed to just techniques.


Kent
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mleone

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2006, 04:01:42 PM »

I noticed that some Aikido guys become so use to "going with the flow"
That some of it winds up looking "choreographed".
Seems like they rely on over committing to a punch.
Not expecting much retraction.

So I think it depends on who you train with..
Bob Liedke is only 35 mins from me.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 04:06:32 PM by mleone »
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JimH

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2006, 05:33:13 PM »

Again ,depending upon when the students of Ueshiba joined his training you can find,non complience in attack and delivery  all the way to the choregraphed compliant look  in training,but then that is also probably what the student wants.

If one wants a combative,useful form of aikido then they must search out such teachers and or test their technique against a non compliant more aggressive attacker.

The truth in application takes time,as the movements of this style of art are for the most part Fine motor skill,so these fine motor skills must be tuned and adapted to reality under pressure and possible adrenaline dump/excelerated heart rate,a complete opposite of that which is doable and time to learn to apply gross motor skills of kicks and punches to an encounter.
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Ed Stowers

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #40 on: May 22, 2006, 12:39:46 PM »

"Take what is useful, discard the rest, MAKE A SYSTEM ON IT."

LOL.  This reminds me of one of Ben Stein's books about how to guarantee to really screw your life up.  He reasoned that since hundreds of self-help books have no solved peoples' problems by giving good advice--because no one listened or implemented the advice--he would instead write a book telliing them how to really mess themselves up, figuring that people would then ignore that advice and improve themselves by the failure to implement it.

So, maybe we need a tongue-in-cheek (finger-in-eye?) article on how to really lose in combat. Then, when people ignore it, maybe they'll get better.   ;D

I studied aikido for many years.  As well as Japanese and Korean karate systems.  When I was a police officer in Texas, I had occasions to use pieces from both, but you had to adapt, modify and tailor to your situation.  There's no fancy kicking wearing a vest and thirty pounds of gear.  Heck, it's even hard to move like that.  You can move your arms and legs, but in no way are you nimble.  Most times, taking people to the ground was more like football than martial arts.  You got out of the car, you're were hot under that dark uniform and vest, you felt restricted, you're not stretched out...well, a lot of the dojo stuff isn't going to work very well.  It requires an athlete, not a guy who's patrolling for eight hours.

Aikido did have some moves I found useful, however.  One was the concept of putting the other person off balance merely by visualizing a straight line between the inside ankle bones of each foot on the opponent and pushing him (or her) at a 90-degree angle to that line.  Another was basic arm bars.  Had a gal I arrested who had no tongue, and I was booking her into jail and she couldn't talk.  After securing my sidearm in the lock box outside, I had her inside and was going through the booking process.  As soon as I took the cuffs off her, she hauled off and slapped me upside the head.  This was not a punch and she was no serious threat.  Still, I was a tad, miffed.  So, on her next slap attempt, I used a classic aikido arm bar to put her face down on the booking table and pin her there, where I politely but firmly explained that if she wouldn't hit me, then I wouldn't hit her.  It did the job and she quit fighting.  I found out later the dispatchers were all laughing themselves to tears watching it on the booking room video monitors--they knew she'd hit me and that's why no one was in there to help.  They just wanted to see what I'd do when I got slapped. 

Sigh.  Police types do play gags on each other.

In that particular case, the aikido thing was USEFUL and I think appropriate.  Years of practicing that move paid off as it was instinctive.  If she had instead been a knife-weilding killer, it probably would not have been, unless you were too close to do anything but move into the opponent.  I doubt a more serious throw or backfist to the face would have been appropriate for this citizen.  The threat didn't justify a heavier use of force...yet if I had never practicing an armbar, my options would have been far more limited.

By the way, I don't personally believe some officers would practice even if they had the time and the money.  That's a shaky presupposition.  Many have an inflated idea of their own capabilities until someone hands them their head, and only then do they get serious.  In that vein, a lot of officers are just like everyone else.  But I think it's wrong to assume that more training will automatically improve officer capabilities.  Will they practice it?  Maybe, maybe not.  It often requires an attitude adjustment.  On the other hand, they see themselves as being pretty effective in dealing  with threats already, so why work harder?  See the problem?

Maybe it does take a certain amount of experience to determine what is useful.  Getting hurt is often very instructive, if not the most efficient method of learning.  Instructors can help as guides, they can do the research for the student, but the student still has to think, use his or her brain and decide.  The instructor cannot do all of their homework for them.  If they refuse to use their mind they will soon become a Darwin Award.

But the initial poster was asking about thoughts on aikido and its practicality.  I think there are good things in aikido if you have the experience to separate the wheat from the chaff.  The whole goal of training is to get the student through that as efficiently as possible.  I think Bruce Lee also said that "anything that scores is effective."  Disregarding the sports terminology,you really have to analyze that statement on situational context...but as a general rule, I think it's easy enough to use philosophically.  Aikido has some good stuff and some not so good stuff.  I think the first thing an aikidoka should understand is he is studying art, not combat.  If he understands that, he has a reference or starting point to evaluate aikido's effectiveness in a given context.

My 2 cents worth...okay, it was more like 4 cents, but who's counting? ;)
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Kentbob

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2006, 10:06:16 PM »

Hey, that was a good post Ed.  I like the story about the gag, and your point about practicing an appropriate technique over and over and over.  Also important was your experience in your vest and other equipment as a police officer.  My loss of mobility, such as it was, was one thing I lamented when I first started wearing the body army.  It must be how a turtle feels, only being able to move his head a little bit, and his arms and his legs.  Cramming into a bradley, and then prying myself out of one, or a hmmwv was unpleasant at the best of times.  And there certainly no way for me to throw a nice side kick, or even a front kick.  I relied on my weapon to hit someone with, in some way shape or form, or until I could get ahold of them.  I couldn't see doing any sort of aikido in that extreme close quarters environment, with that gear on. 

But, as I said before, I like aikido and the principles it teaches, both about fighting and about living.
Again, Ed, I am in complete agreement, its an art, and once you get deep into it, a lifestyle, not a combat system.
Kent
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kayakpirate

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Re: Aikido-is it practical and does it work?
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2006, 02:41:26 PM »

I remember an article in ...I think it was black belt,back in the late 80's about an Aikido Sensei,I believe his name was Brendan Lai or Lei.Anywho,He was a cop for a while in Canada while he was trying to get his Dojo going.The account went something along the lines that his Aikido worked fine for the junkies and pimps he dealt with daily,but when the Lumberjacks came to town and got rowdy he had problems.So he calls his Sensei in Japan and asks him what he needed to do to deal with giant drunk lumberjacks.His Sensei's answer was...learn to fight.
Cool huh?
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