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[Adventure]

4 Principles:

1 - If the way is free, go forword.
2 - If you meet resistants, stick to it.
3 - If the force is greater, give way.
4 - If the way becomes clear, go forward.

What is more important Principles or Techniques?

Techniques - the number of things you are able to do in a fight.
Principles - How & why something works.

One of my old instructors use to say "Understand the principles behind the techniques & you can create all the techniques you want, but know just a technique and all you have is that one."

What is your guys reasoning on this? And what do you think of the principles above?

Adventure

[Milldog1776]

4 Principles:

1 - If the way is free, go forword.
2 - If you meet resistants, stick to it.
3 - If the force is greater, give way.
4 - If the way becomes clear, go forward.

What is more important Principles or Techniques?

Techniques - the number of things you are able to do in a fight.
Principles - How & why something works.

One of my old instructors use to say "Understand the principles behind the techniques & you can create all the techniques you want, but know just a technique and all you have is that one."

What is your guys reasoning on this? And what do you think of the principles above?

Adventure

Pretty good. Sounds like a tie in to the "reverse engineering process" of the Congress.

[Big Rob]

I'm a concepts guy personally, I do not believe in technique. You set a goal and find a tool then get the job done as best you can. I think it's better to understand the why behind what you are doing.

I find it to be fast as well as more effective.

I'm not sure the context in which you think you would use those principles and I will not assume what your goal is, so before I comment, give us a little more detail.

However I will say this, #1 and #4 are the same.

[Adventure]

I'm a concepts guy personally, I do not believe in technique. You set a goal and find a tool then get the job done as best you can. I think it's better to understand the why behind what you are doing.

I find it to be fast as well as more effective.

I'm not sure the context in which you think you would use those principles and I will not assume what your goal is, so before I comment, give us a little more detail.

However I will say this, #1 and #4 are the same.

Big Rob,

1st I am gald we talk on a topic & have no hard feeling about other theads.

#1 - If the way is free, go forword. - assumes that the fight is just starting & have made no contact yet.

#4 - If the way becomes clear, go forward. - assumes that you were engaged or blocked or they retreated, so you do go back to #1.



I'm not sure the context in which you think you would use those principles and I will not assume what your goal is, so before I comment, give us a little more detail.

I am not looking for how you think I would use those principles (They are just an exmaple.); but on what you think about those principles; how you think they may apply to you. Then what are some principles you have found in combat/fighting that have held true.

PS. did I just confuse you more. 

[Big Rob]

I don't think I'm confused however self examination is always troublesome. I don’t take personal offense to differing opinions (even if they seem heated) I’m sure if we were to speak in person we would be great friends. Also if you read my posts don’t read them with emotion, I do not write to incite, if you know what I mean.

As for Concepts we teach many, I’ll give you an idea of some of the pieces of what might be taught.
Striking for example I will teach the idea of Tool and Targets vs. specific techniques, you can know if you are striking correctly if you are use Economy of Motion, attacking with your Closest Weapon to his Closest Target and Attacking his Primary Targets. Ec.t
Ground Fighting would be understanding the significance or space and weight, Maintain good posture and a secure base, Restrict mobility and breathing. Ect.
Some things for Creating Power would be Distance, Grounding, Timing, ect.
Behavioral we teach to be Proactive, take “Responsibility” (the ability to chose your response), be goal oriented, Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood (meet then where they are before you can take them were you want them to go), ect..

As for your principles. I think they are good if given in a specific context.
I’ll give you an example of how the statements loss validity with incorrect or unintended context.

1 - If the way is free, go forward. – Makes sense in the context you used if previously, however if I place it in the context of a double leg takedown I would not want to shoot to towards nothing, I’d rather shoot directly into the centerline, similarly with a punch.

2 - If you meet resistance, stick to it. Again in the context of an argument or even a joint lock I begin to see problem with this philosophy, If I’m arguing I’d like to redirect and control the conversation or if I’m being joint locked I’d rather get loss, slip, roll and pull.

3 - If the force is greater, give way. This makes sense although in some ways may contradict with #2 if in the same context as Joint locking. And you may want to utilize that greater force to your advantage so maybe not give way but redirect or utilize, or increase your force or find a force multiplier.

4 - If the way becomes clear, go forward. Again same as the issue stated in # 1.

[JimH]

Techniques are specific use items

Principles are General guide lines.

I am for Principles because they dictate the action,the flow either into or away from the contact will denote the technique.

The more we have taken our tools and trained them and found what works for us,that we can flow with and produce the desired result the better we are at APPLYING THOSE TOOLS TO ENACT OUR PRINCIPLES.

Each Principle to me has two directions and we either go to or away from the conflict based on the outcome of each;

My Principles are:
Awareness/Avoidance
Dialogue/Defusion
Contact
Post contact.

Not unsimilar to the first list by Adventurer:
be aware and avoid,then the way is clear to get away
dialogue and defusion,a  way to get a second attempt to get away
contact,when met end it fast and never let up
Post contact,when it is over then get away

[Big Rob]

My Principles are:
Awareness/Avoidance
Dialogue/Defusion
Contact
Post contact.

We use the same thing as well.. ( I know you knew that already)

We use the above as stages in which to put our strategies and tactics.
Our stages would be
Preparation
Pre-Contact
Contact
Post Contact

Each stage has it's own Goals, Strategies and Tactics.

[Kentbob]

I look at it like this.  "Catch a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."  If you teach someone jab, cross, hook, front kick, side kick, knee, elbow, inside block, outside block, what have you done, really?  Just taught a set of techniques.  Does your student now have self-defense tools?  Yes.  Have you given them tools to build more tools?  In other words, have you given your student a reason and a way to study what they have learned, in order to evolve their techniques, and apply it throughout any situation?  Maybe, if they are motivated enough to learn on their own.  If you teach the why of something, though, then your student starts to learn what else will work for that why.

Teacher: Why do we through the jab?  To stun the opponent and set him up for a hard hitting combination.


Student:  Ooohhh!  So, maybe I could fake a jab in order to set an opponent up.  Maybe I could...

I am a concepts kind of guy myself.  I teach techniques, but I don't just stop there.  I tell everyone I train with and teach that I will give them the concepts so that they can modify and improve what they learn, to innovate and find new ways, perhaps better ways, to accomplish their own personal self-defense goals.  That's what I think teaching principles, or concepts is about as opposed to just teaching techniques.  Realistically, anyone can teach a front kick.  Look at the local Take My Do school.  A real teacher, and the real measure of a teacher, lies in teaching the concepts to a student.


Kent

[Karl]

The way i put it down-under.

If you understand the Possibilities and Limitation of what you are doing or using you will always be 1 step ahead of the other  Guy

[Kentbob]

The way i put it down-under.

If you understand the Possibilities and Limitation of what you are doing or using you will always be 1 step ahead of the other  Guy

I like what you say.  Good stuff.

Kent

[Bryant]

for the sake of clarity I think we need to make a distinction between
a principle and a concept, they are in a sense opposites
a principle is a natural law applied to a practical goal
or in the words of Merriam Webster principles are ..."the laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device”, for the purposes of this discussion the artificial device is a system of combat, and from the principles mentioned by the original poster his system is Ving Tsun
in my opinion what makes Ving Tsun so effective (and some may argue as to how effective Ving Tsun is) is the fact that it is based on principles as opposed to concepts.
A concept is something we have made up in our own minds so it's effectiveness or truth is undetermined, or needs to be determined
the truth of a principle is self-evident because principles can be observed in nature. in my opinion any system based on principles will be of a higher quality than any system based on concepts

I intentionally did not say more effective
because the effectiveness of any system depends greatly
on the user of the system...

I believe what is important
is to use technique to illustrate principle
and then once the principle is absorbed
techniques can be created "on the fly"
whatever system you study
I think we all would like to eventually transcend
our systems and be able to "express ourselves freely"

truthfully most systems have more similarities than differences
the same principles applied in different ways and different circumstances

I don’t think any of us have the time to research, study,
and discern the underlying principles of effective
combative movement in all circumstances
I think Hock has walked very far down that road
and has done a great deal of work, And I am thankful
to be privy to the fruits of his labor

but since I don’t have much time
and I do want to be able to defend myself
the Ving Tsun system has been the best option for me
this is my core system, I supplement that with
things from Hock's curriculum
and others

that's my two cents
-Bryant

[Big Rob]

the truth of a principle is self-evident because principles can be observed in nature.

What are the Self evident principles that you find essential and transcendent?

[tlouis]

IMO its a 2 way street. Principles are primary but technique is absolutly neccessary. I think that by practicing techniques , principles become apparent and ingrained. Example- the principle that if force is greater give way. Untill  you get a kinesthetic memory of that by practicing techniques that incorporate that principle-you will most likely meet force with force. I think the most omportant training I have had in martial arts is having played football. I learned more about principles of physical combat in football that can be applied to all disciplines.

[Big Rob]

I learned more about principles of physical combat in football that can be applied to all disciplines.

Ok so I ask you, What are the Self evident principles that you find essential and transcendent?

[tlouis]

Balance-Targeting-Body control- Leverage-Angles- adapting instantly to the situation while in the choas of the play(OODA)