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[Milldog1776]

I'm stuggling with the idea of starting a kids program to help pay the bills, however the last thing I want is a bunch of 4-8 year olds in horse stances doing multiple lunge punches. I don't want to teach kids something that they can't use or will have to forget or drastically change when they upgrade to a regular CQC curriculum. At the same time I think "Kids should be Kids" and the horrors of real violence should be taught later in life. I do however want to incorporate "life lessons" you know (be nice, repect, be a good American, etc.)

Anyone have any suggestions of any programs out there that are more "reality based"? Or any suggestions on how I could create a program myself/

[szorn]

Take the CQC basics and water them down for the kids class, incorporate tons of drills, games, etc. add character building components, build a curriculum that will take them a year, or two, or so to get though and you are good to go.


Steve

[Milldog1776]

I know that children need little goals. What tips can you give me about belts and ranking structure?

[plouffeka]

The hardest part of working with kids is the PARENTS.  I've seen too many times parents bring in their kids for you to "fix".  What some of the kids really needed was a better home environment or medication.  Some parents get very up tight as to where in the pecking order their child falls and it becomes your fault that they are not higher up than they actually are.  And of course they always want a show or demo for their kids to perform.  Sixteen is usually my cut off to start teaching and only after I've interviewed the parents.  The parents have to know the violent content of the material and we have to discuss the maturity level of the student to handle the material responsibly.

The problem, I think, of teaching CQC type material to kids is the limitations of its use for children.  If they are against an adult there are huge physical and psychological hurdles for a child to overcome to make any of it work.  It's bad enough that movies like "Home Alone" have given false confidence to kids that they can out fight and out wit a grown adult in a stressful situation.  You should have a class for parents on how to protect their kids and for the kids – teach them primary defense like adults never need help from kids so don't go with strangers to find dogs, etc.

If their attacker is another child, than there is a maturity problem with the student knowing how to restrain themselves and use only necessary force.  I can easily foresee a pushing incident turn into the child gouging the pusher's eyes out.

Now, some kids are ready for it.  Think of people who grow up in rural homes, hunters, robust, living a very rough and tumble life, in which they learn, and the home environment supports, defense of self, family and the homestead.  Or urban kids who have little adult supervision or protection and live in a violent environment.  I dare say these will not be the bulk of your students.

But I'd rather light a candle then curse your darkness.  I agree with Steve that you can extract drills (I think the PAC stick drills are great coordination and skill builders) and focus on take downs that don't have a lethal component, light sparring that focuses on building confidence and coordination, ground work, etc.  Going for the eyes, head twists, stomping the head, knife work and such should be reserved for either higher ranks or for only older teenagers.  You just might have to take what is already out there and sift out what is age appropriate and what is not.

As for systems for engaging kids, one of the best schools I've seen (and I don't claim to have seen many) is Eddie and Joan Wilcoxen's school in Altus, OK. www.blackbeltclub.com   Their Black Belt Club of America is fashioned after the boy scouts with merit badges and community involvement.  Each level of their training as an attribute for students to learn and for you to teach (http://www.blackbeltclub.com/blackbelt3.htm) Now their BBCA is separate from the main program and you get invited to join after a certain rank.  But you could adopt a similar program and get the kids involved off the bat; even use it as a marketing strategy.  To learn more about their program (as opposed to reinventing the wheel) drop them a line.  The most recent email address I have for them is: bbca@sbcglobal.net  Their phone number still should be 580 482-0030.

To sum:  Be careful with teaching reality-based material to kids; it may backfire on you.  Take what already exists and mold it into a product you can deliver to children that will build skills for later training and give them some sense accomplishment.  Hmm, now you got me thinking….

Good luck!
Keith

[Milldog1776]

Thanks for the Black Belt Club stuff. I'm also looking into some character development products from MAIA.

As far as actual curriculum, I feel you just reinforced my original statement. There has to be a way to teach kids realistic martial arts...(a little boxing, a little kicking, a little grappling) without it having the body mechanics of TKD or any number of strict "sport" martial arts. If we have to deprogram them when they get old enough to come to the regular CQC class...what's the point?

I'm reminded of a quote by Bruce Lee, (paraphrased) "Before I was trained, I thought a punch was just a punch and a kick was just a kick. When I started training, I realized that a punch was not just a punch and a kick was not just a kick. Now that I am a master...a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick." something like that

Hmmm. Maybe I just answered my own question. Maybe it isn't techniques I'm looking for...maybe it's just structure.

The problem, I think, of teaching CQC type material to kids is the limitations of its use for children.

I would have to disagree with this statement I think. In any of the situations listed, would a properly chambered sidekick or spinning TKD crescent kick work? Perhaps a spinning backfist or karate chop? I think "realistic" technique is called "realistic" for a reason. I think I already expressed the fact that I believe children should be busy being children, and not be faced with the horrors of real violence. That does not mean that they can't have good technique, though.

[Rob]

Think of teqniques you  could teach them to avoid,

Being pulled into a car.

Pulled into a bathroom stall.

How to talk to strangers in public, on a phone. etc.

I think this mindset would lead them into wanting
to train in CQC later in life.

[szorn]

Good points posted above. Just to be clear, there is a difference between teaching a children's program for the long-term and teaching a children's program desgined for self-defense or abduction prevention.

A program for the long-term will be watered down to avoid the viscious tactics that children might use to hurt another child. Regardless of the techniques taught, the children must be taught proper morals, and values. They must be taught right from wrong, appropriate and inappropriate, etc.

The emphasis on self-defense (against other children) will vary with the child's age. example, if the child is only 6 they will not truely comprehend the meaning of self-defense and when/why it should be used.

Teaching self-defense against adults (abduction prevention, avoidance of abuse, etc), is highly valuable and should be started as soon as possible. As long as you uderstand that teaching standard martial arts techniques here is not applicable. This material can be integrated into the standard curriculum, but be sure to emphasize the difference to both the child and the parents.

Check out my article devoted to child abduction prevention to get a better idea of what I mean-

http://www.geocities.com/combatives/childarticle.html


Hope this helps,
Steve

[szorn]

I know that children need little goals. What tips can you give me about belts and ranking structure?

Create belts and multiple belt stripes, so that the child will constantly be striving toward a goal that is achievable. Create a rewards program for perfect attendance. Create homework- library research, fill in the blanks, coloring contest, etc. etc. Then provide rewards for the winners, best work, etc. Use some sort of point system and give rewards only once every few months or so. Get the parents involved by having them obseve their children and their behavior, example if a child acts out, have them let you know and you might subtract a point from the child's total. If the children learn that there are positive rewards for hard work, they are more likley to strive forward. Just some ideas.

Steve

[Professor]

I know that children need little goals. What tips can you give me about belts and ranking structure?

Create belts and multiple belt stripes, so that the child will constantly be striving toward a goal that is achievable. Create a rewards program for perfect attendance. Create homework- library research, fill in the blanks, coloring contest, etc. etc. Then provide rewards for the winners, best work, etc. Use some sort of point system and give rewards only once every few months or so. Get the parents involved by having them obseve their children and their behavior, example if a child acts out, have them let you know and you might subtract a point from the child's total. If the children learn that there are positive rewards for hard work, they are more likley to strive forward. Just some ideas.

Steve

Steve has made some excellent points.  I've started teaching my own kids now.....yes, they have belts!  Just yesterday they were both in  t-shirt and underwear with a white belt tied around their waist.    What a picture!
Belts are a good motivation to improve for the kids...By the way, the was a lot of fun cutting down a couple of my old belts so that my boys can wear them.....

Both are now getting ready for bed early so that they can have a karate lesson (about 3 night a week).   They don't get to have a karate lesson if they yell at each other or a parent.  Thus, they have to show respect and responsibility before they can learn karate...."...because I won't teach little boys, ONLY young men."  At 6 and 8 this still has an impact on their lessons and attitude.  I have a lot invested in these two boys/young men. 

The first thing that they wanted to know was a karate chop.   I showed them why we aren't going to learn it and instead use a hammer fist.    We have spent the last month working on the jab/cross on pads, keeping hands up, blocking and the round kick - we'll continue to work on this for a long time.  They are learning one katana kata that helps them with flow (and it's really cool dad).

I'm won't work with them with a stick for a while yet.....they won't have knife work for a LONG time...Both of these are much too easy for boys, their age, to abuse.

I don't have a school and I don't teach other people's kids.  My boys are leaning learning combatives....they may not know what they are really being taught yet.  I don't teach any other kids....and I don't run a school.   Private lessons for my kiddos however, I just don't like what most martial arts schools are teaching.... My thoughts as a dad only....

You might want to IM Rawhide and get him in on the conversation....I has a very good transition program.

Jeff

[Meredith]

Everyone has so much good stuff to contribute! Mike and I are getting ready to launch our kids program up here in San Francisco and I will definitely be re-reading this thread to get more ideas. Thanks!

As Steve pointed out, there is a big difference between the ongoing m.a. curriculum for kids and short term self defense for kids. Because my forte is short term, scenario-based training and Mike has a 40 year history in m.a., we are planning to incorporate elements of it all (reality-based S.D. / CQC / "Climin' & Wrasslin'" for the little ones / M.A.) to make the program fun, interesting and, most of all useful for self protection. The one thing I feel is essential for any kids program is a verbal boundary setting / awareness component, as these are skills that kids are most likely to use in everyday life (hopefully FAR more liely than physical defenses). So I suggest adding a "role-playing" drill where the instructor plays a variety of "bad guys" using the classic ploys and tricks that abductors try and the kids have to use their words and body language to successfully set a boundary, attract attention to their situation or de-escalate a potentially dangerous confrontation. Mike has always said that in all of his years of training, his instructors would say "You should always talk your way out of it or try to escape", but he NEVER had the opportunity to practice that in class. If you could combine that piece with other solid physical training, kids would REALLY have some great everyday safety skills!

Mike and I have an instructional DVD available through Centurt Martial Arts called "I Am Not A Target!" for kids age 7-12. It's focus is abduction prevention, but we demonstrate some boundary setting role-plays that you might find useful / interesting. Please let us know if anyone has seen it!

Thanks,
Meredith

P.S. Here's the rest of the shameless plug - we also have a 2-part series available on women's everyday safety and self defense called the "R-A-W Self Defense Series" as well as a 2-part series for martial artists looking to incorporate some of the ASST methodology into their existing curriculums called the "R-A-W Power Series". They can be purchased through Century (http://centuryfitness.com/). Just type "Meredith Gold" into the "Search" window and you'll find them all! 

[plouffeka]

Thanks for the Black Belt Club stuff. I'm also looking into some character development products from MAIA.

The problem, I think, of teaching CQC type material to kids is the limitations of its use for children.

I would have to disagree with this statement I think. In any of the situations listed, would a properly chambered sidekick or spinning TKD crescent kick work? Perhaps a spinning backfist or karate chop? I think "realistic" technique is called "realistic" for a reason. I think I already expressed the fact that I believe children should be busy being children, and not be faced with the horrors of real violence. That does not mean that they can't have good technique, though.

No argument from me for your response.  I guess what I meant is what others have better expressed in this string (As Steve Martin use to say, "Sometimes I have a way with words and sometimes ... I not have way") 

I think it is important to teach kids to get out or away rather than engage if possible.  It seems logical to adults, but may not be translated to children.  When you train you are often spending hours in engagement tactics.  As others have suggested, working on getting away tactics needs underscoring. (thanks Meredith - I'll be looking at some of the DVD's you suggested to learn more myself).

Train the body and use good techniques, but hammer in reading the situation.  This came home to me dramatically one night about 3 or 4 years ago.  I came home late from something or another and I see my 12 year old son (who's had a couple years of training) come creeping from the hallway and walks into the living room with a bat at the ready.  I asked him what he thought he was doing.  He said he thought I was a burglar.  I responded with, "So, what do you think you are doing?"  He stammered that he thought I was breaking in the house.  And I asked what he thought he was going to do approaching a criminal with a bat.  My height and weight alone, plus an adult's confidence over a child's uncertainty would have made it a very quick encounter in the adult's favor.  We had a long talk about what would have been a better response such as going in and waking mom, climbing out his window and getting a neighbor, using backroom phone to call 9-11...

I don't know if I'm saying this right, but my point is - the body remembers what it is trained to do, so if in class most repetition is to approach and engage, then kids maybe prone to do so when they should get away.  This string has given me a lot to think about and anyone who is or wants to train kids should really think through their course material and it sounds like there is material already out there to draw from.

Good discussion,
Keith