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[Hock]

"A lot of my knife fighting (dueling that is) is based on Bruce's JKD. Take Tao of JKD and read all about the 'elusive lead' and related chapters and just imagine a knife in that lead hand. Lots of good stuff in there... footwork, stance, bobbing weaving etc. Of course, it just HELPS with knife dueling tactics, and it needs filtering." -Sharif

In this area of filtering with fencing, there are a lot of sport leakages to plug. Too many for me. Strict fencing is a "sideways" art. There is almost zero lateral movement down the thin runway of a fencer. They deal with long weapons, so you have to keep your body sideways.

The shorter the weapon, the Bowie/and-or big knife, down to the folder, the less chance the non-knife side of your body can be reached by the enemy's weapon, and the more you can turn and "blade" into the fight.

This turning of the body now opens up lateral, side-to-side maneuvers. You are now off the prohibitive, skinny fencer's runway.

The other thing that drives me crazy about fencing is that once the winner gets his point, and the buzzer sounds? The point-achiever stops the fight. He too is often touched by the epee a microsecond after his winning point, but it "doesn't count" because he won. This creates a mental strategy and almost an almost, at-times, suicidal approach to blade-work. Learning point moves without any regard to defense to hit the buzzer. An edged-weapon fighter has to learn to fight on well after he has delivered a serious wound to the enemy.

I like to reverse engineer a real knife fight and problem-solve that way....and a fencer operates in the "myth of the duel" world with rules. These worlds create strategies to win in their environments, regardless of reality. (So too does stick-versus-stick fighting, even boxing, the UFC, etc.)

Can you take something interesting from fencing to use? Sure. You can also learn fighting tricks from football and college wrestling. I personally remain thoroughly unimpressed with fencing. I think good fighting strategies can be developed in a complete vacuum from fencing and that fencing, as it relates to real-world fighting unarmed and knife-fighting is not worth much. All the good derivatives can be attained from other systems with less filtering work.

But that's just ol' opinionated, jaded me,
Hock

[Benjamin Liu]

[The other thing that drives me crazy about fencing is that once the winner gets his point, and the buzzer sounds? The point-achiever stops the fight. He too is often touched by the epee a microsecond after his winning point, but it "doesn't count" because he won. This creates a mental strategy and almost an almost, at-times, suicidal approach to blade-work. Learning point moves without any regard to defense to hit the buzzer. An edged-weapon fighter has to learn to fight on well after he has delivered a serious wound to the enemy.

I took fencing for a short time and this disturbed me as well.  Guys were excited to score a point even when in real life it would have been a mutual kill, something we do NOT like in the martial arts I've studied.  Mutual kills seem to have been common though.  On one board a few years ago someone posted a news report of a Bowieknife duel in the 1800s.  The "winner" was gutted and died a few hours after the loser.

Another problem was weird rules, like not being allowed to strike until after you parry the opponent's blade, or something like that.  It's been a long time but I remember many times where I could have struck if not for the rules.  Fighting as if you are both on a plank also limits real life applications.

There are also problems relating to the swords.  Some are like pushdaggers and would only simulate very long (sword-length) pushdaggers, something that probably wouldn't work well as a weapon in real life.  I don't know if this other thing is common to fencing or just something in my class, but there was a stupid technqiue to intimidate an opponent by whipping the sword (sort of in a pictos movement) into the floor and letting the rubber ball make it bounce up.  With a real sword on cement the tip would probably break.

[Escrime Anglais]

I must humbly disagree.


I don't know of any martial artists or combat athletes who have a finer sense of timing and distance, than fencers.

[kariookami]

I find this thread somewhat funny because this very morning I started doing some research into fencing and its application to knife fighting. I just came on the board to post a question asking about the very stuff being discussed in this thread. Low and behold, such a thread already exists, lol. I would like to see what others on the board have to say about this topic. I don't know enough about fencing  to really weigh in here, but aren't some concepts from western fencing (such as moving in quartata) applicable to knife-work?

I mean, if we look at fencing as a delivery system, does it provide some positive benefits? For example, it's generally considered that boxing has the most well developed stand-up, punching range, striking delivery system, because that's where they do all their work. Fencers do all their work facing somebody else with a long piece of steel. Doesn't this mean that there are SOME aspects of fencing we can take and use? Also, I've found some information in my short research thus far on what is termed "sport fencing" and "classical fencing." The latter is concerned with western fencing in light of its martial origins, and not the double kills and flicking one finds in sportive fencing. I'm not coming down solidly on either side of the fence here. I just think it's something worth thinking about.

On another note, I find that when stick-fighting my low line attacks to the side of my opponent's leg often looks very similar to passata sotto...

Edit to add: Hock, what other systems would you recommend one studies to learn long bladework that requires less filtering? Other then FMA I mean.

[Hock]

Edit to add: Hock, what other systems would you recommend one studies to learn long bladework that requires less filtering? Other then FMA I mean.


ahhh...that would be me.
Hock

[Hock]

But more seriously...


I mean, if we look at fencing as a delivery system, does it provide some positive benefits?

Playing baseball will help you play football. But football is football.

For example, it's generally considered that boxing has the most well developed stand-up, punching range, striking delivery system, because that's where they do all their work.

For boxing yes. A street fight is a wide-open, multi-weapon environment. learning to strike in those conditions, completely void of boxing styles, colored shorts, a square ring, etc, can also be done with the same fervor.


Fencers do all their work facing somebody else with a long piece of steel. Doesn't this mean that there are SOME aspects of fencing we can take and use?

Playing baseball will help you play football. But football is football. A street duel is a wide-open, multi-weapon environment. Learning to duel on those conditions, compeltely void of fencing styles, mask, outfit, skinny runway, etc, can also be done.

Also, I've found some information in my short research thus far on what is termed "sport fencing" and "classical fencing." The latter is concerned with western fencing in light of its martial origins, and not the double kills and flicking one finds in sportive fencing. I'm not coming down solidly on either side of the fence here. I just think it's something worth thinking about.

If you want to knife duel? Then knife duel. Fencing is abstract from knife dueling. The better parts of fencing can be learned in a complete vacuum from fencing.

You don't have to look for an style/art first and settle for what you want. The raw essence of combat comes first. The foundation.The foundation FROM WHICH all styles and systems eventually develop.

Hock

[kariookami]

Hock, I understand what you're saying. I definitely agree. I'm certainly not advocating that for CQC one should train in boxing and consider that to be the end of it. The hard part for me is in some way linked to what you wrote, that, "You don't have to look for an style/art first and settle for what you want. The raw essence of combat comes first. The foundation.The foundation FROM WHICH all styles and systems eventually develop." My question is, how can one start with that foundation and then not spend LESS time developing an effective system, compared to analyzing other existing systems and drawing from them strategies, tactics, techniques, etc. that do work/fit in with CQC? You wrote that, "The better parts of fencing can be learned in a complete vacuum from fencing." But wouldn't it be more efficient to look at fencing, and perhaps with a fencing maestro tackle the problem of blade usage in the street and with a good filter in place, draw from fencing what can be applied in our preferred venue? Of course, this is assuming anything from fencing can even be taken. I have no clue yet.

Take boxing again for example. In boxing one learns great body mechanics for throwing a punch. Instead of trying to learn from scratch great body mechanics for a punch, why not go to a boxing coach and learn from his knowledge and experience what those great body mechanics are. Then use those body mechanics for related strikes for the street? Efficiency in training methodology and system development is something I've been thinking about for a while but now my head just hurts . Of course, that's one of the things I like about the SFC. You've done a heck of a lot of the leg work for us. Again, I'm certainly not advocating a sportive approach for CQC training. This is more me trying to work through system development.

[Hock]

But wouldn't it be more efficient to look at fencing, and perhaps with a fencing maestro tackle the problem of blade usage in the street and with a good filter in place, draw from fencing what can be applied in our preferred venue? Of course, this is assuming anything from fencing can even be taken. I have no clue yet.

And of course, a fencing maestro probably knows jack shit about a down and dirty, street knifing. The maestro is obsessed with attaining points in a white suit within the closed rulebooks of fencing.

And also, knife dueling, like fencing, exists in the "Myth of the Duel"-that two people are going to square off and have a nice, little duel with equal-sized weapons.

I'll face one of these  maestros with a brick in one hand and a knife on the other. My mission is cave that fucker's head in before I trade classical, dueling moves.

Dueling itself is a minority in the experiences of real world knife encouters. Stick dueling. knife dueling, even boxing. The street and battelfield winner has cheated. Makes the odd. Plays the odds. Spits. Heel stomps a foot.

Dueling can happen and therefore a percentage of a training course must cover dueling but uit can be covered in a more realistic environment.

THIS is the most tricky part of martial arts training. The innocent compulsion to study in Thailand for 10 years, to learn to throw a punch that knocks someone out. A coal miner does that now.

To study with a maestro to learn the art of the fencing duel, just to stick a shiv into someone' s gut. An inmate does that now.

What could be done is to pass on the Fencing Maestro and go to someone who has done all that already and has filtered it out already. Why redo it. Why replicate it. Why waste 10 years in Thailand?

Unless you REALLY know and want to be a Thai Boxer.
Unless you  REALLY know and want to be a fencer.
But if you want survival CQC? You shouldn't waste too much time on side trips that the vets are are telling you are side trips.

Hock

[Hock]

Take boxing again for example. In boxing one learns great body mechanics for throwing a punch. Instead of trying to learn from scratch great body mechanics for a punch, why not go to a boxing coach and learn from his knowledge and experience what those great body mechanics are. Then use those body mechanics for related strikes for the street? Efficiency in training methodology and system development is something I've been thinking about for a while but now my head just hurts.

Great mechanics in punching can exist in complete isolation of sport boxing.
You can learn the great mechanics of throwing a powerful punch...also in karate. In level 5 of my unarmed course.

You can learn a great punch in...like Nick hughes Legion course. In a reality course, after that great punch, the next minute Nick Hughes is warning you the fucker is coming back up at you with a knife.

Otherwise, the boxing coach is telling you to rest while the ref does a short coundown and you get your face wiped off. Different worlds. Different goals.

they might have great punching mechanics. One is sport, the other harsh reality. I like to start with the harsh reality. People can play at their hobbies later.

Great ring, sport boxing mechanics can aslo quickly deliver a broken hand for you.

We have so little time. We have to learn what we need to learn first.

UNLESS!
Unless you REALLY know and want to be a Thai Boxer.
Unless you  REALLY know and want to be a fencer.
But if you want survival CQC? You shouldn't waste too much time on side trips that the vets are are telling you are side trips.

Hock

[kariookami]

Roger that Hock. I know a fellow who followed that very compulsion to study in Thailand. He and I have similar goals in our training, but I did think the time he planned on spending there was excessive (not 10 years, but it was still quite a while). Thanks for taking the time to help me work through my perspective.

[wisdom]

" I'll face one of these  maestros with a brick in one hand and a knife on the other. My mission is cave that fucker's head in before I trade classical, dueling moves."

A little modification and that makes a helluva T-shirt slogan.

[arnold]

Back about 10 years ago, Hock and I did a seminar in Western New York for Dr Barber and his school. Had about 100 people show up from many different traditional schools in the area. One of the individuals who showed up was a local " top guy" in arnis. ( name withheld as he is an idiot). He decided that he wanted to get in on the knife sparring. With his outstanding luck and talent, he got to come up against me. He did this dancing around and some fencing shit, so I slapped him across the face with the knife. The look of shock and surprise on his face was outstanding. But he still stuck to his "fencing" strategy. Didn't work the second time either as I slapped him once again on the other side of his face. I certainly did not want him to be out of balance with only slap marks on one side of his face. His third and final mistake was to draw his knife back along side of his head. This time I punched him in the head with the knife. Now he had had enough and packed up his shit and went back to his safe little kingdom where he ( in his own mind) continues to reign supreme over all his loyal subjects and students who believe his idiotic crap.
When I recently did a seminar in NY, a student there mentioned that he was training with this person, and another individual who attended the seminar 10 years ago mentioned what had happened to him at the original seminar, when I slapped him with the knife. Once again, shock and dismay on he face of a student as this self proclaimed" master ", had been humbled.
The old sport vs reality check. Fencing, line dancing. Hmmm. May as well take line dancing, at least I get to wear boots and a neat hat. Yeee haa.

[Hock]

Remember the perfect definetion of close quarter combat-

"Close quarter combat is a knife in the back, in the dark. Everything else is less than perfect."

And less and less and less and less perfect you go done the line? Is sport fencing.


<<<>>>

Now, having said that...it is important to get off the couch and DO SOMETHING. Stuck in your neighborhood, constricted by your work schedule, you have to do something....athletic...something that relates to fighting in some way.

Just be weary of your muscle memory and try to keep a clear head.

Hock

[amit]

Brilliant advice Hock.  Very impressed with the participants in this forum.

Common sense rules. Period.

"In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine"
-A notable WWII commander

 

[Kentbob]

"In a man to man fight the winner is the one who puts an extra round in his magazine"
-A notable WWII commander

 

Now that's common sense.  Good stuff.