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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

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Author Topic: Blood Loss  (Read 10322 times)

Adventure

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Blood Loss
« on: July 28, 2006, 10:59:30 AM »

Does anyone have a good source on the Rate of Blood Loss due to what type of wounds that can be sustained in an encounter with a blade.

Carotid Artery:
Jugular Vein:
Subclavian Artery:
Subclavian Vein:
Aorta (Any):
Brachial Artery:
Femoral Artery:

I have been looking all over the net, But I suck at finding stuff I need......Find all the stuff I don't need....or should not be needing/looking at, but not what I want.

A

Crazyguywithasword

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2006, 11:12:20 AM »

Rich's book In Total Defense of the Self had a list of the arteries and the time it took for you to bleed out and the depth of cut required to incapacitate/kill. I'll look it up for you and give you the response when I get home....
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Adventure

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2006, 11:25:41 AM »

Rich's book In Total Defense of the Self had a list of the arteries and the time it took for you to bleed out and the depth of cut required to incapacitate/kill. I'll look it up for you and give you the response when I get home....

Thanks CGWAS,

It would be nice to know where Rich got his info. :)

A

Nick Hughes

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2006, 11:28:15 AM »

there is a timetable in the book Kill or Get Killed.

Be aware though, any such timetable is merely a guideline and not going to be accurate.  What will kill one man in seconds will just piss another one off.

Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2006, 02:50:10 PM »

Blood Loss and Shock

Best book I've read on the subject. BUT! It is one of those darn expensive textbooks. It covers a lot of pre, during and post treatment material. Yet, honestly it didn't describe anything we don't already know somewhat instinctively. If its pumping with each heart rate fix it fast is the final lesson.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0340560215/sr=8-1/qid=1154120034/ref=sr_1_1/102-5015983-9543302?ie=UTF8

Defining the big pumping veins on down to the oozing capellaries. But it could not define exact seconds for the circulatory parts you listed. In summary, blood loss was general and unpredictable.

Then Tactical Medics warn about getting bubbles in the bloodstream to heart and brain which brings even a quicker stop.

I think if you laid a body on a gurney in a lab and pumped the heart at a certain rate and did a surgical cut, you might get some estimates. But I really do not know how helpful that lab experiment would be in the realities of a real deal.

8 to 18 seconds for a main liner was the old street rule of thumb they taught us,

But you know want also? That information is taught in Gun 7 by a SWAT Team Tactical Medic Tom Bradley, and you just bought Training Mission Seven so you'll see that disc as part of the set.
http://www.hockscqc.com/shop/product54.html

Hock

Hock

Adventure

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2006, 05:36:33 PM »

Thanks guys, for the info & I am looking forward to TM7.

CGWAS, When ever you can get it would be great.

In all the training in Medic school they really do not go over any time table or guideline for how long you have, but more into what happenes when you lose what % of your blood volume.

Dealing with the wounds is no problem for me or teaching someone about how to handle it, but I have been interested in where people have gotton the info.

I know we could come up with a model ourselves (cardiac output = stroke volume x heart rate) then use that with how big the vessel is.............but math hurts when I don't needs to do it.  ;D

Nick I will look up that book also.

Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2006, 09:55:43 PM »

EVERYONE and I mean everyone needs to own Applegate's book.

Kill or get Killed.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0873640845/qid=1154146557/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-9696133-2730302?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

It is a piece of Americana martial history. Much has evolved on since it was written but still, it is an inspirational, pioneer must-have.

Buy it....NOW!
Hock

Crazyguywithasword

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2006, 10:11:43 AM »

Here we go:

Carotid artery: 1 1/2 inch deep cut results in unconsciousness in 5 seconds and death in 12 seconds.

Brachial artery: 1/2 inch deep cut results in unconsciousness in 14 seconds and death in 1 1/2 minutes.

Radial artery: 1/4 inch deep cut results in unconsciousness in 30 seconds and death in 2 1/2 minutes.

subclavian artery: 2 1/2 inch deep cut results in unconsciousness in 2 second and death in 3 1/2 seconds.

heart: 3 1/2 inch deep cut/stab results in immediate unconsciousness and death in 3 seconds.

Thats about it for arteries. For the jugular and femoral he basically just says its about the same as the carotids, and his point isnt to tell you how long you have but to show where you should avoid getting cut at all costs. And, of course, like anything else in combat these aren't absolutes and depending on where and how you're cut, it can change the times.

Enjoy dude - Nick

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Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2006, 10:21:49 AM »

he basically just says its about the same as the carotids,

"He"...being who?

Hock

Crazyguywithasword

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2006, 10:41:39 AM »

I said earlier, I got those out of Rich's book, In Total Defense of the Self.
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Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2006, 12:28:13 PM »

As with anything me, Rich or Blaur or anyone does, we need to report where it really comes from.

If I were Dr. W. Hochheim from Harvard Medical School, I could report to you blood loss rates with some legit authority. BUT, instead, I am just a guy in t-shirt in Texas with a good copy machine. I can write and reprint anything in a book. Real professionals would be foolish to just to say, "oh, Hock says so."

Rich, also is just a guy in t-shirt in Canada...with a good copy machine.

If we get to requote and pass around technical and medical information, we really do need to name the recognized, qualified source. Can that guy look in the book and tell us what hospital or military lab...that kind of thing...that info comes from?
Probably would be cool to quote.

Hock

Crazyguywithasword

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2006, 12:30:38 PM »

Like I said earlier in this thread, I am going to ask Rich when he gets back from his honeymoon....
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Kentbob

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2006, 03:55:23 PM »

We as grunts were always worried about the femoral artery.  The medics warned us we had less than sixty seconds to slap a tourniquet on the femoral, before the soldier would bleed out.  I realize this may not be the cold hard data you were looking for, Adventure, but I hope that helps.


Kent
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Adventure

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2006, 12:49:12 AM »

Keep it coming.

CGWAS: thanks for the info, & the source when you can get it, Thanks.

Thanks Kent.

HocK & Nick: I will be picking up that book.

Medics here a few yrs ago had a 18yo male, that was stabbed in the heart & stood around and gave the cops info on the attacker for about 5mins before medics arrived. Too bad the medics got lost getting to sence or he might have lived. I was in the trauma room watching them cut this kid open & sew his heart up & MAN you should have seen ALL the blood in his chest cavitey.....

Nick Hughes

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2006, 08:55:05 AM »

I'll get a scanner sometime soon and I'll scan in the picture of the top I was wearing the night I had the fight with the entire Kung Fu school and got stabbed.  One tiny little knife hole (the sword hole in the trouser leg was bigger but I can't find that pic) and yet the whole top is covered bare a few inches.

N
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Crazyguywithasword

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2006, 11:48:28 AM »

OK so Rich got the stats for blood loss from the Sykes and Fairbairn book "Get Tough."
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Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2006, 01:19:55 PM »

Gotcha...
We'll take that into consideration.
Since neither Sykes nor Farbairn were doctors, they no doubt got those timings, from some medical source, maybe...probably English (?) circa 1930s or 1940s.

I have the entire, new US Military Combat Lifesaver course/manual and somewhere in there, I just know some bleeding info lurks. But the thing is REALLY thick and I just haven't gone though it yet.

Hock

Adventure

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2006, 11:43:20 AM »

Thanks CGWAS.

Hock, when ever you get around to it that would be neat to know, thank you.


& where did you get that book?

Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2006, 11:49:11 AM »

It was a present from a SWAT Tac med guy.
It was in a giant looseleaf.

But type in

"Combat Life Saver"

or

"Combat Life Saver Program"

in the search engines and see what you get. Its an unclassified  governnment book and therefore is free.

Its the latest and greatest and received much fanfare when Afghan and Iraq first kicked up. Saved a lot of lives, still does.

The whole thing might be on the internet somewhere.

Hock

Kentbob

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2006, 11:59:54 AM »

CLS is good stuff.  Its pretty basic first aid, coupled with some advanced trauma treatment, like gutshots and the like.  CLS is where I was told that we had less than 60 seconds to get a tourniquet around the femoral artery, or else our guy would bleed out.  Also good information on improvised stretchers, and I learned how to give an IV.  Took me a bit, but I got it.  Very important information for today's soldier or police.

Kent
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Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2006, 09:26:14 AM »

This was in the works for awhile, but now finished.

Mike Janich, drawing from the work of a police officer's forensic investigation, Chistopher Grosz put together new information. New research discounts the WW II Applegate/Fairbarirns numbers

http://www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1475

Even at an elevated heart rate of 220 beats per minute ( a factor, by the way,  these WWII folks neglected to address - says Grosz and Janich) it takes about 68 seconds to bleed to unconsciousness with a severed carotid artery and 89 seconds on evergae to bleed to death.

Mike is very confident of the Grosz work, from a collection of medical examinars and forensic medical specialists.

Hock

Karl

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2008, 03:20:43 AM »

The  link for Combat live safer.

http://www.cs.amedd.army.mil/CLSP/
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Hock

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2008, 06:57:57 AM »

Yes, and this information is different and more modern than the old information listed and repeated in and from these much older books...

Hock
« Last Edit: June 28, 2008, 07:04:27 AM by Hock »
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tkbill

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Re: Blood Loss
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2008, 09:38:58 PM »

Hey, I recently got mike Janichs' new book martial blade concepts, and it has an updated more in depth study of the "timetable of death". The times given there are quite a bit different than the "get tough" version. The Radial is somewhere around 7 min, compared to the 2 min from the other book. If I can find it ill post some more if youd like.
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