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W. Hock Hochheim's

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  • January 16, 2018, 09:00:54 AM
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Poll

Now suppose the following items are all available to you if you only have time to pick-up one, which do use.

An old fashioned rag mop.
- 3 (13.6%)
A pool cue.
- 8 (36.4%)
A large book.
- 0 (0%)
Your own knife.
- 4 (18.2%)
A holstered handgun but with your assailant now within twenty feet of you.
- 7 (31.8%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: October 01, 2006, 03:38:38 PM


Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“  (Read 10735 times)

410indashade

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #30 on: October 04, 2006, 02:21:59 AM »

Okay, the voting has closed and a grand total (drum roll please) of twenty-two votes were cast.  The votes were immediately sealed in an earthenware jar kept under the back porch at Funk & Wagnalls for safekeeping.  But knowing like I do that interest in the results would keen indeed!  I paid the accounting office of the aforementioned firm to count them first.  Realizing in my genius like way that I did not have enough fingers and toes.  For the reading impaired Hock has kindly provided us with a perty chart the relevance and meaning of which is anybody's guess.  ;D   
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arnold

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #31 on: October 04, 2006, 04:33:03 AM »

Genius like way?!! This guy must have seen the super secret book. Another one gets it. One down, more to go
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I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
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arnold

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2006, 04:37:56 AM »

Also, maybe when Hock returns from his latest trip/adventure in search of rare show tunes, he can find the picture he took of my hand when it was slashed by a knife. 27 stitches and a staple or 2. Ring finger of left hand is still numb after 7 years. Keeps left handed nose picking down to a minimum. It goes with the 9 stitches and 2 staples they used to reattach my right ear that Hock removed for me. I guess he didn't like the way my glasses fit at the time. Now they line up perfectly. Damn, do I look good!
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you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

usks1

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2006, 09:29:34 AM »

You didn't pay attention usks1 the scenario specifically states "within twenty feet."  I know I can do it(just) from the draw or from the table at eighteen to nineteen feet any closer and it gets into a wrestling situation which is problematic at best.  Have you tested yourself do you know at what distance you can draw and fire on average taking the three best times out ten with live rounds or sims.  I'll bet most of you don't.

Sorry guys, been gone for a few days....

410,
I understood the question, but I am not gonna stand there and let the 21 feet become a wrestling situation. Draw and move as best you can to continue to make distance and keep making distance while firing looking for things to put between you and him. Keep firing...

We don't do a lot of clock style timing on scenario drills, but we do spend quite a bit of time drawing, firing, finding cover, moving toward and away from the target while shooting..

There is no doubt that at least a certain % of the time this may turn into a hand to hand type of situation. But I would still rather fight him after I dumped a couple of rounds into him.

Or have Carl trip him while he is lapping up the beer.... that will buy me more time..   ;D


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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

Nick Hughes

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2006, 03:39:16 PM »

It's coming down to a holstered pistol and a pool cue.  (the mop is a poor man's pool cue...same range but with the off setting head on the end and generally poor quality wood)

The problem with the pistol...and I don't care if you train or not is that within 21 feet his momentum will carry him on to you even if he's hit (all things being equal :)) As the Brits found out fighting the Zulu, bullets don't stop momentum (only in Hollywood)  Pool cues on the other hand do and they also offer the huge advantage of reach over his knife (assuming here he's not wielding Excalibur)

You also have to take into acount that, by the time you realize he has a knife, and he's attacking that you have to get the gun from the holster, (does it have retention features which must be manipulated?), disengage the safety [unless you're smart enough to carry a Glock] and get rounds down.  The pool cue is already in your hands, has no retention features, no safety and, even if it breaks during the fracas, can still be used.

I'm sticking with the pool cue.

Nick
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JimH

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #35 on: October 04, 2006, 07:03:05 PM »

quote Nick
"The problem with the pistol...and I don't care if you train or not is that within 21 feet his momentum will carry him on to you even if he's hit (all things being equal ) "

Yes,Yes,Yes,very good point,especially if one is firing a .38 or a 9 mm,the knife Swinging attacler will get you even if you hit them.

quote Nick
"The pool cue is already in your hands, has no retention features, no safety and, even if it breaks during the fracas, can still be used."

Again good point,the weapon(the pool cue) is at the ready and provides length advantage and provides a Great deal of blunt force trauma.
Hold that knife to the rear and the stick  will open your head or crush the side of your neck.
Stick that knife out and The pool cue will crack the fore arm bones (ulna and radius)

The pool cue can also be used  with two hands to parry,thrust,jab,and replicate a butt stroke.

If the stick breaks now there is a jagged instrument to stab and thrust to cause penetration.

Within 21 -31 feet give me the Pool cue.


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usks1

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #36 on: October 05, 2006, 11:58:00 AM »

You know guys... I gotta agree with you.

Even though I would still love to shoot any SOB who pulls a knife on me, just on principle alone.

I think we can say the pool cue is the winner.

But....

How about Nick knocks the shite out of him with the pool cue, then steps back out of the way, and then we shoot the SOB?   ;D


Alright I'm done...  ::)

Good poll though...
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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

Professor

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #37 on: October 05, 2006, 03:17:30 PM »

You guys are nuts.      Give me the handgun!   

I want something that WILL end the fight.   "within twenty feet." or "within five feet"  I'll take the show stopper.   

I need only sidetep/pass/block/attack once....

I'll end the fight on the second step.   Can you be assure on each of the other option?

An old fashioned rag mop.    (if you have the distance)   
A pool cue.                       (if you have the distance)
A large book.                     (if you're lucky)
Your own knife.                  (if you get close enough)
A holstered handgun but with your
assailant now within twenty feet of you.  (if you can keep from contact or retrieve space)


And no whimpy caliber.....give me a 5" gov. model with 230 grain slow moving .45.


You're all nuts.   That's the reason I'm driving.

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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

Nick Hughes

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #38 on: October 05, 2006, 09:17:30 PM »

Prof has slipped over to the loony left...I knew a right wing Prof was too good to be true.

You say providing you can keep from contact or provide space but the Tueller drills proves again and again that you can't (yes, it was an eye opener the first time I tried it to).

With the pool cue it doesn't matter if I'm backed into the corner of a pool hall or if I have room to manouvre.  The gat is only going to be of any use assuming you can make the recommended off the line movements.  If you can't, you're screwed.

Your licence has been revoked...I think Arnold should drive.  Any man who can handle an Italian motorbike can surely get us there safely in a bus.

Uncle Nicky
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

usks1

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #39 on: October 06, 2006, 04:31:18 AM »

Well, now that all this has been said... Let's look at reality. ( At least from my side of the bus )

 - I don't spend much time in pool halls anymore, and when I go in a bar I don't have a gun, and it is a long nite in the iron bars motel if I take it in there.

 - Outside I don't usually have a pool cue with me, so it would have to be an improvised weapon of some sort

 - The one thing I usually have on me at all times is a blade, and my empty hand skill....

So... Regardless of what might work best, I train the things that I have at my disposal, and if I end up facing someone with a blade, it will probably be a blade on blade, or empty hand vs the blade situation...

Of course after I throw the hot coffee, the beer bottle, the ash tray, and hit ths SOB with a chair..

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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

arnold

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2006, 05:33:37 AM »

I get to drive! Wow, thanks Uncle Nicky! As for all of this back and forth stuff that's been going on in this latest chat, here's my opinion. Which of course as you know is the only one that really matters.
We can take every type of situation under the sun and debate all day, but in the end alll that really matters is if you'll be able to find your seat on the bus and get back to your re-runs of Warner Bros cartoons, or the 3 Stooges.
Been through the 21 ft drill and have managed every time to hit the approaching victim at least twice every time. Is this the answer, depends on the situation. If Uncle Nicky ran at you with his North Dakota dancing shoes on, ( his ass kickin shoes) you might be able to hit him with a few rounds, emphasize might.
Could you get out of the way of above mentioned attacker as his , as I'm told, oversize ass lands on you even after taking a few hits? Maybe. who knows. The problem as I see it is that people debate for a probable situation when the real answer is, arm your ass to the teeth. I know the professor is. I know I am. And besides, since I now get to drive ( wooo hooo) he has time to polish ammunition and sharpen his knife.
So many situations that we cannot come up with the perfect sceanario. So let's just all get on the bus and head to Uncle Nicky's neck of the woods, have some North Carolina BBQ, drink good booze, and shoot paint ball guns at land manatees. Oh hell, now some of you knuckleheads will want to debate the type of paint ball gun.
And speaking of guns, bought the high pont in 45 acp yesterday. Yes I know it's a piece of crap, but I put 200 rounds of assorted ammo through it with out a hitch, didn't even clean it out of the box. Would I bet my life on it? Hmmm. I'll keep it in my desk at work, right next to the new chapter of the Super Secret book I'm working on.
As for being able to handle Italian motorcycles, Uncle Nicky is exactly right. I dear readers can handle anything. Wether it's retarded fat people at Braums, you knuckleheads on the forum, or the bozo's that I deal with on a day to day basis.
Logged
I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

Professor

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2006, 01:34:13 PM »

F*ck off!!!!   Get back in your seats.  I am the driver -- most of you have not ridden with Arnold. 

I have....believe me.....get him back in the seats.


Now on a serious nut.....


The question is what would you use?    Not, what would you recommend to others.   

I have a lot of options, and there is a lot of "it depends" in this poll.   410indashade is about a half load off on this poll and the short bus crew is willing to jump in the shallow water.

I can play havoc with a knife, but, I prefer to get distance and a distance weapon. 


Sit down
Shut up
and hang on (yes, the straps help)

The (InCharge) Prof
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Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

arnold

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2006, 04:52:37 AM »

Once again the Professor has stepped to the forefront and told us what we need to do. And besides, the short bus doesn't handle well with the tire pressure at 150 lbs. Just can't get it to slide like a dirt track motorcycle.
Logged
I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

usks1

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2006, 11:43:34 AM »

F*ck off!!!!   Get back in your seats.  I am the driver -- most of you have not ridden with Arnold. 

I have....believe me.....get him back in the seats.


Now on a serious nut.....


The question is what would you use?    Not, what would you recommend to others.   

I have a lot of options, and there is a lot of "it depends" in this poll.   410indashade is about a half load off on this poll and the short bus crew is willing to jump in the shallow water.

I can play havoc with a knife, but, I prefer to get distance and a distance weapon. 


Sit down
Shut up
and hang on (yes, the straps help)

The (InCharge) Prof

That settles it..... I am in the back of the bus with a shotgun..... Professor can drive thru most of the trouble, and I am gonna sit back and drink Jack & Cokes, and wait till he tells me to start shooting.

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" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

arnold

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2006, 08:05:49 PM »

And I'll pick out the targets for ya! I'll have time now that I'm back in the jump seat, or the navigator or as I like to call it, the Gunners Seat!
Logged
I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

usks1

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2006, 04:08:26 AM »

Yea, the jump seat sounds like a lot of fun.... I'm locked and loaded..

Time for another drink...
Logged
" I see people doing all kinds of crazy stuff.. Eatin razor blades and sh--t.. But I wanna know.. Can he fight?? "

Moses Powell ( RIP ) - The warrior within

Bryan Lee

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2006, 11:56:10 AM »


   One aspect that has not been mentioned is cutting yourself. It is my understanding that all crime scenes involving knives the investigaing officer specifically looks for the assailents blood and many times finds it. That said I  recently watch some Youtube type homemade knife cutting videos and I was amazed at the proximity of the off hand to the blade while cutting and the lack of consideration that the guys were putting into keeping the of hand out of the way of largish Bowie style knives while cutting into large objects at full speed. If you ever watch a American Bladesmith Cutting Contest almost all contestents place the off hand dirctly on the chest to insure it is out of the way at fulltime swing.

 White Moose Carlson a very famous Alaska trapper kept his finger in a jar of whiskey on the mantle of his cabin until he left to die in the city and I was told he often spoke fondly of the finger and how he missed it, I believe he said even though it was gone it was always cold then again I could have that confused with Lake Lebarge. White Moose was famous for his razor sharp double sided axe and one day while chopping some kindling he lopped the finger clean off and its said he tried to sew it back on for days and finally just gave up and placed it in the whiskey and thought about it. He was a expert axeman and made a simple mistake and lost his finger forever. Just goes to show you cant be to damm careful in such matters.

   Pushing the rules a little I would prefer the knife to gain distance so I could draw the pistol to engage. Otherwise a blade is always my first choice under said circumstance. Turbans, bandanas, and belts can be handy too as long as your pants dont  fall down complecating matters and exposeing your jewelry to  angry steel.
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Nick Hughes

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #47 on: October 12, 2006, 06:39:26 PM »

Got to disagree mate (here we are, at it again :))

Weapons have always been about range.  If your gat kills at 1,000 yards and the enemy's has an effective range of 400 yds you stand off and shoot the shite out of him.

If you have a machete and he has a Swiss Army knife...chances are good, all things being equal, he'll lose.

If you have long arms and he has short ones his work is cut out for him.

Going knife against knife, again, all things being equal, then you're setting yourself up for a 50/50 fight.  That's not good odds.  The pool cue on the other hand, will keep the other guy at bay and the gun would be even better provided it wasn't holstered.

Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Bryan Lee

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #48 on: October 13, 2006, 10:00:17 AM »

   One advantage a knife will always have over a pool que is cutting abilaty. A swinging pool que can be blocked, caught, trapped and grabbed, or just diverted without drawing blood and its not a very overpowering weapon such as a softball bat which is something desighned to swing and make a powerful hit. The actual length of a pool que is more of a disadvantage and they usually shatter on impact. I guess if you had time to break it in half and ended up with a sharp point it could be deployed in a way that is more effective but this leaves to chance.

  The knife will cut on any contact and it is my experiance that a guy with a knife will always close on a guy with a pool stick wheras he is much less likely to charge another guy with a knife.

 
« Last Edit: October 13, 2006, 10:48:00 AM by Bryan Lee »
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Nick Hughes

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #49 on: October 13, 2006, 10:50:15 AM »

Yeah but the original question was "you" meaning me.  I've had years of weapons training including both bo and jo so I wouldn't be wildly swinging it.  I've done plenty of scenario training (sparring) and have never had the guy with the blade get close.  Also, if you break the pool cue in half you have two escrima sticks.  In all the FoF drills I've ever seen I've only once witness the knife get in on the stick.

Nick
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Hard pressed on my right. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking.
--Ferdinand Foch-- at the Battle of the Marne

Bryan Lee

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #50 on: October 13, 2006, 04:52:24 PM »

Yeah but the original question was "you" meaning me.  I've had years of weapons training including both bo and jo so I wouldn't be wildly swinging it.  I've done plenty of scenario training (sparring) and have never had the guy with the blade get close.  Also, if you break the pool cue in half you have two escrima sticks.  In all the FoF drills I've ever seen I've only once witness the knife get in on the stick.

Nick

   Nick, I agree with you to a degree. A couple things I would like to point out here,

1. There are many groups who go full contact with stick verses no group that goes full contact with live blades. This is for a very good reason, Knives are much more dangerous.

2. There are hundreds of hours of live stick on video all over the net and some of these guys are considered the best in the world, A good many of these end up in the clinch or somehow go to the ground. In any scenario where knife verses stick finds itsself in the clinch it would in all likelyhood give advantage to the knife.

3. While the stick requires movement and eneregy to be effective and simply placing it staticly out in the front of your body is a disadvantage the oppisite is true with a knife, By just placeing the weapon in front of you it can be very effective and with little energy the function can recieve full use.

   
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Professor

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2006, 08:18:15 PM »


Got to disagree mate (here we are, at it again :))



Fine, but do it from the passenger seat.   

A pool cue is a bad mofo, but personally, I hate working with pool cues and bo..    The only good thing about the cure is that you can break the wussy end and have a sharp instrument.   However, I love the jo.


So, you are still left with a knife weilder on the other side of your swinging stick.   You still can't stop the fight without closing.....

Remember, one sidestep, and I stop the fight.
 


PS    I have a hard head and a staff doesn't work well on me..
 
PSS   ...I would still rush you.   :-*
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

410indashade

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2006, 02:02:12 AM »

Actually the poll was set up as a multiple choice question.  With five listed answers and one not listed but understood the so-called "empty hands" option that many of you mentioned.  It was never meant as an honest poll.  That would have been quite useless in this context and proved nothing.  And the scenario could have been set in a student union, the local "Y" or anyplace that features a pool table.  I made no mention of spirits being served.  Except briefly in my real life stories.  And like many multiple choice questions there is no "correct" answer only the "most correct."  In this case those that answered with some form of "what I brought" to the fight. :)     
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arnold

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #53 on: October 14, 2006, 04:45:06 AM »

What about the empty headed option? Hey Nick, what's your buddies name again? I think it's time we lobbed a round across his bow. Why, no particular reason, I just like his answers.
Logged
I leave you idiots alone for 5 minutes and I come back and you're all dancing around like a bunch of Kansas City faggots
you're all a bunch of slack jawed faggots around here, this stuff will make you a sexual tyrannosaurus, just like me!

410indashade

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Re: “If you engage in a knife fight you're going to get cut.“
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2006, 12:02:25 AM »

F*ck off!!!!   Get back in your seats.  I am the driver -- most of you have not ridden with Arnold. 

I have....believe me.....get him back in the seats.


Now on a serious nut.....


The question is what would you use?    Not, what would you recommend to others.   

I have a lot of options, and there is a lot of "it depends" in this poll.   410indashade is about a half load off on this poll and the short bus crew is willing to jump in the shallow water.

I can play havoc with a knife, but, I prefer to get distance and a distance weapon. 


Sit down
Shut up
and hang on (yes, the straps help)

The (InCharge) Prof

"half a load off" Prof?  I witnessed the aftermath of this encounter between an ex-con and a LOF (that's little old farmer) to you big city  sophisticates.  The LOF was beatup some but the ex-con, a larger and younger man was stabbed in the chest and stomache 31 times with the retired farmer's trusty stockman pocketknife and spent three months in the hospital.  They were fighting over a game of pool.  I added the book and gun otherwise the scene was exactly as described by witnesses present that night.       
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"Adapt and overcome"
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