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Author Topic: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"  (Read 5280 times)

410indashade

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Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« on: September 03, 2006, 06:21:51 PM »

Article in the October 2006 Issue of Black Belt Jim Wagner describes how he designed the subject knife.  Since I written Black Belt  several times with my brilliant if contrarian analyses and the editores haven't seen fit to publish my inciteful missives.  I decided to carp eh heh, share with you one of my pet peeves.  That is holes in survival blades, not in the hilt, handle, guard or pommel, but in the blade itself.  Something I know from experience leads to cracks upon descaling of your 55-60th perch with a thin bladed folding knife.  But Mr. Wagner touts his blade as a multi-purpose survival item.  Having just bought one through my supplier for a student of mine I got to examine it at some length.  And while it seems suitable for self-defense and the everyday tasks most knives will be exclusively used for, it falls short in the survival mode as I am sure most folding knives will.  So tell me, have you seen the article or handled the subject knife above and what is your opinion? 
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kayakpirate

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2006, 09:09:36 AM »

I dont know if this is worth anything...but have you seen the Beretta pocket knives ?
The Beretta rep I saw thought the thing was sliced bread.The blade is completely skeletionized.
Its a blade shaped frame with an edge on it.Looks cool, I guess...but I cant see it as anything other than a letter opener.
I have always thought that "survival knives" were mostly turkeys.The sawbacks usually weaken the spine of the blade.The hollow handle crap makes me gag.They try to make a knife that can do everything.Which of course ends up doing nothing well.
Are the holes in the baldes of some of  these knives for wire cutting with the sheath? Are they there for areodynamics? Reminds ms of those silly ass Kamas that the sport karate people like to pose with.
Get a copy of "Everybodys knife bible". A great little book.The author,Don Paul has some pretty niffty ideas about how to make any knife into a true survival knife.
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410indashade

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2006, 02:42:55 PM »

Yes, I've long since read, Everybody's Knife Bible and except for the blade shape and size recommedations I generally agree with his recommendations in fact if I'm in the woods after dark I still wear a sheath system set up like Paul's.  I wasn't referring to survival knives with a big "S" just that Wagner claims this for his knife and it seems a worse than useless addition to me. 
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ghostrider

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2006, 08:40:37 PM »

It gets back to what I have said a time or two. How can the common man who is looking for good advise and training to protect himself and those he loves? It is pretty hard because of all the mass of information and "good ole boy" groups out there. Those of us learning and teaching have to work hard on keeping good information flowing out there. It is a never ending thankless job but if we don't try then the bad guys win.
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Chuck Burnett

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2006, 12:20:28 AM »

Its pretty much all a bunch of horse shit. Isn't it?

Preach on, brother Hock!  ;D

An $8.95 KLO (knife-like-object) from Bud K will do pretty much the same (realistically useful) things as the latest wonderknife, but where's the profit margin in that?

Chuck
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Bryan Lee

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2006, 03:27:29 AM »

   I almost hate to post this but what the heck. The guy just has not spent much time learning about knives or his core market is those who have little realistic experiance and or no educaion about such things. First calling any knife a completely new design is just silly, if it were completely new it would no longer be a knife, it would need a new name.

   I just want to make a couple simple points here, what he is trying to present here is a "Kill Knife" which is my term and choice of words. While there are some good features on the knife you can find them on many knives going back hundreds of years so there is little if any innovation  but most importantly there are flaws that the unlearned will not see which could get them killed. The flaws go like this, It is impossible to qaulify a folding blade as a "Kill Knife" because it is a folder, that simple. What goes up must come down and what opens can close, it can close right on your fingers either severly wounding you and or causing you to miss  a pace which gives a opponet with a knife the final awnser,which is "I should have chose  a fixed blade for this scenario". A fixed blade is always open giving superior access speed and will not close on your fingers. Another flaw is serated edges and saw edge, Any "Kill Knife" should be smooth beyoynd the hilt and gaurd "The blade area" as to allow smooth insertion and smooth exit while it is a given that flesh and muscle will not grab a serated edge other materials in play can grab  them and when dulled they are a liability. Bone, ammo clips, bullet proof vests, tactical holsters and gear, watches and other things can all snag or just prevent withdrawel, serated edges and saws are a no go.

Quote
Gladius tip

The most important feature of the Jim Wagner Reality-Based Blade is the fact that it is primarily a stabbing weapon. In a knife fight cuts to the body usually cut into the muscle. Although very bloody, most cuts generally do not have “stopping power” (enough force and trauma to stop an aggressor instantly) unless the cutting edge slices through an artery or opens up the abdominal wall. On the other hand, puncture wounds 3 cm or deeper can not only induce a phenomena known as instantaneous shock due to the severe trauma to the muscle, but puncture wounds to the torso are likely to penetrate internal organs, which in turn shuts down the body systems faster.

   It is my personal experiance that stab wounds are just the oppisite of what is described here, they are rarely if ever noticed until the conclusion of a fight or the death of a victem. Stabbing is a great tactic in knife fighting but to make it a priority is a losers stratagy. Any engagement must be adapted to, I have a 4WD truck but I would be considered a dumbass if I insisted on driving to the  mud with my front axel engaged, another simple stratagy is to drive on the pavement in 2WD and lock out the hubs when you get to the mud, in other words, slash til you get the opprtunity to stab and then you better know what your doing as stabbing is the most dangerous move in a armed or unarmed knife attack. By the way I have never heard of anyone with their fingers cut off being able to retain a knife. The main stratagy of folding blades has always been slashing and its for a very good reason, A forward or downward slashing movement upon contact places all pressure upon the uncloseable side of the pivot which in essence will allow for cutting while preventing  the blade from closing. I have no faith in locks of any type while I have seen some good ones they are all subject to fail under extreme use and any engagement of a knife upon a human instantly qaulifies as extreme use.


Quote
Blood grooves

You won’t see a blood groove on any tactical folder knives on the market, until now that is. The Jim Wagner Reality-Based blade does not just have one blood groove, but two one side of the blade. Blood grooves, or a fuller as they were called before the 20th century, are typically found on military bayonets and some swords to lighten the blade by 20% to 30%, yet keeping its structural strength. Many believe that a blood groove allows blood to flow from a stabbed person to alleviate the suction effect or clenching of the muscles around the trapped blade, thus making it easier to withdraw the knife from the wound.

   When I saw the word Kriss or Keris used to describe this knife I just thought here we go again and then I came to "Blood Grooves" the single most useless thing on this knife. Fullers were incorperated onto blades for one reason and that is to make the blade stronger and lighter during the heat treating process on swords and larger knives. Does anyone actually believe that this will do anything to improve the performance of such a small folding blade? Heat treating is beyond the scope of this writing and is very technical but I can say this here, Boker knows better, this is total bullshit marketing to the ignorant, It is another insult to the guys who have worked long and hard in the knife industry to educate and inform the public and give them a good qaulity product for a fair price. I could go on and on but will close by questioning just what reality is this guy and his knife in?  Bryan Lee


 
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JimH, "Bryan, have you seen the Elephant?"  Bryan Lee, "I Am The MotherFFFFing Elephant!"

kayakpirate

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2006, 02:03:02 PM »

Hey Bryan,nice post...good points.but youre right this perfect "Kill knife" theory  of yours has happened before.
Lets look at the roots of the problem.
First there are designs out there that are perfect for their purpose or at least close and as a result these knives ensured fame for their designers.Knives like the Bowie the Sykes Fairburn,
Ka-bars...Ka-bar. And I know what youre about to say, and youre right... These knives are all pretty much older designs that caught on when resurrected. The Sykes-Fairburn is a knife that Sykes and Fairburn were exposed to while serving as cops in Hong Kong.
These knives made these people,Bowie ,Fairburn ( and  for a while now Applegate) famous.
Ka-bar is Ka-bar because of the K-Bar.
So what better way to get taken seriously then to design your own knife?
Gil Hibben got Ed Parker to authorize the Kenpo knife.Have you ever seen this thing?
Heavy,knda awkward.Not a combat knife,yet suppose to be the ultimate knife.
I cant think of all the ultimate knives I've seen come and go.For the most part, people trying to get a
rep from a knife.
Hocks right...its all bull...
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410indashade

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Re: Boker Knives, Jim Wagner Designed "Reality Based Blade"
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2006, 10:33:09 PM »

Thanks for the analysis Bryan I knew I did not like the design but I just couldn't put it into words.  A well done concise analysis ever thought of sending it to Tactical Knives ?
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