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Author Topic: Interesting observation (on drills)  (Read 7197 times)

mleone

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Interesting observation (on drills)
« on: September 09, 2006, 05:08:45 PM »

Matt Thornton Stick Fighting - The SMAC program

Intro
Basics; forehand and backhand 3.
Range; fade
Cover
Crash
Drills (Now for some one who doesnt do drills. I find this humourous.)
Backhand to legs
Going for the hands
Style vs. delivery system
Sparring
Conclusion
« Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 07:43:40 AM by Hock »
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mebogrr

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2006, 12:53:25 PM »

Not that I am a giant Matt Thorton supporter or anything, but his standpoint is that he is against what he defines as dead patterns, not drilling. One does not equal the other.

In your defense, mleone, I can see where someone might jump to that conclusion. I used to believe the same thing myself.
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mleone

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2006, 01:42:03 PM »

Its meer semantics, because its honestly a stick dvd. So they are probably doing dead patterns but just drilling.

Drills and patterns are much the same dead or not...

You can do drills with patterns in them or no patterns.
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mebogrr

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2006, 08:13:10 AM »

I'm not 100% sure of the point you are trying to make here, but allow me to be more clear with mine. Your posting said that you found it humorous to find a Drills section of the SMAC program because they do not do drills. Regardless of the thought of dead patterns in drills versus "alive" training, the SBG guys *do* drills in all facets of their training.

Misstatements like the one you made is what often needlessly spins into the whole "Hocks'(or anyone else's for that matter) training methodology against SBG training methodology". I think that debate has been had often enough already.

Everyone has their own thoughts and beliefs on which is better, but that doesn't change the fact that what you stated is incorrect. I apologize if this sounds overly harsh, but I don't know how else to make my point any clearer.

Mleone, if you'd like to discuss this further, provided no one else has anything to add, please feel free to email me directly at the address contained within my profile. That way we don't waste everyone else's time by continuing to only address each other in a public forum. 
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Hock

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2006, 08:32:14 AM »

...other instructors adding stick, knife and gun to their programs?

Well I think through time, these guys evolve and mature into realizing they need to be more reality-rounded outl if they want to play in that realm, they gotta' do "hand, stick, knife and gun."

Being in my mid-50s, this haunted my martial arts training for decades as a cop - knowing the disparity between the disciplines of military, police and martial arts training, and I guess it really pushed me about 11 or 12 years ago toward the hand, stick, knife, gun approach...too, and when you think about it, the Matt Thorntons and all are evolving into these same realizations, and are thereabouts the same age as me when it moved me?

The "Gabe Suarez-es" realize they needs more stick and knife and takes action
The "Marc Denny-es" need gun and takes action
The "Matt Thortons" organize a stick course
and on and on..

And in the big picture this is a very good thing. These are all good, smart guys and it is growth and that is good, as I was ever on the hunt and am still on the hunt for what I can bring back.

The general question a consumer must ask is when one instructor/expert endeavors onto these new subjects, are they "graduates of those universities?" or are they high schoolers throwing something together they think works? The student just needs to remember what college do they want to go to? Isn't that always the question with education?

College grads, High schoolers or worse? I always take a hard look at, say a certain JKD guy who suddenly becomes a gun guy too. How did that happen? (One JKD-er attended a two-day gun course and started photographing himself with shotguns and saying he could teach "lethal force" firearms) These children have absolutely no idea what they are talking about. My god! This isn't a college grad in the subject. Not even a GED, yet someone like this advertises in the marker place to compete against a Steve Krystek, Gabe Suarez or Front Site course? This is so innocently stupid.

But anyway in the next few years prepare to see all kinds of evolving experts in one field/subject start branching out to look more hand, stick, knife and gun...remember you heard it here first! (the prediction that is...)

(The last mental trap to escape to reality? Is the stick vs. stick myth. Reality people with impact weapons are very unlikely to be fighting against a stick - and the same sized stick as yours to boot!  So, how real is real?)

<<<>>>
The drill thing...


The discussions on the live or dead drill thing ...there has been much written about.
Two smart guys can argue for a week if a drill is dead or not and both make some sense. It is a very semantic decision. There is a Silat group in Colorado that makes Hubad look robot-dead worthless. Then there's another in California with so much motion and variety and smarts it is irreplacable as a coordination and skill developer.  

The big thing in the late 80s and earyly 90s was a campaign against
Inosanto Hubad
Inosanto Sumbrada
...and there was also animosity attached to this debate against Dan. Dan did not derserve it.

Remember instructors define themselves as what they don't do, just as much as what they do, do.  And back then it was hip to define yourself as a reality fighter and say "those dead drills are wrong and here's why!"

Actually in the beginning, the naysayers disliked all drills and did not define just hubdad and sumbrada. But they made their hate-speech, then turned around and taught...yes...a DRILL! They quickly identified how hypocrtical and silly they were saying this so blanketly, and really refined their arguements more, and defined and pontificated on the word "Dead." Now their arguements are more...refined.

and to a large extent I do agree with the naysayers...the refined versions that is.

In my travels, I have seen the most robotic and dead-looking hubad done by people that I do not like to see at all. These robots do not use the drill properly or emphasize the big picture, movement, variety of angles, inserts...(remember it is always about the inserts, not the drill pattern) instead they stand like robots and blast away and only on one corner, ignoring the vast possibilites o angles and weapons.

In the 80s I recall a Texas/Oklahoma Filipino group obsessed with Hubud. They would not work an insert unless that could GET BACK TOTHE PATTERN! (The insert is supposed to BREAK the pattern by the way) There was story amongst them that one guy, in the middle of then night, solved and figured out a way to do a certain insert and get back to the precious pattern. He called two friends at 2 am yelling,
 
"I got it! I got it! I figured out how we can return to the flow!

THAT my friends, is hubad at its abused worst. A total misconception and misuse. Matt, Burt and I shake our heads and agree - now that's a dead dog approach.

Shooting paper targets on the range, at the sound of a whistle is about as dead a practice as it can get (no pun intended) You need to shoot more sims against people shooting back in quick draw situations. YET! You have to practive the steps of drawing and pulling the trigger. You have to! Do you throw away the range training because its a dead drill?

Matt Thorton and my friend Burt Richardson etc. take these same observations. They are smart guys and have writen and verbal dissertations on the subject..again, defining what they don't do, so you know what makes them special...Then honestly, I see these drill-naysayers and reality supporters do some of the damndest silly and sport-based drills too as doctrine through the years too, claiming they are teaching reality and "live" drills.

Two smart guys can argue for a week if a drill is dead or not and both make sense with the proper examples. It is a very semantic decision. As I said , there is a Silat group in Colorado that makes Hubad look robot-dead worthless. There's another in California with so much motion and variery and smarts it is irreplacable. Football teams have paid Inosanto instructors thousands and thousands of dollars to teach Hubad and their applications are very much full-force, Sunday-Proven....Alive. Its alive!

Show us this robot Colorado group or this pattern-obsessed Texas/Oklahoma group and and Matt, Burt and I are drinking beers together and in total agreement. Show us this California group-smooth, cool, skilled and fast, and the debate may begin?

What is the drill used for?
How has it been interpreted?

and in the end, the solid rule is...
"You can't drill too much! Become a fighting expert, not a drilling expert."

Hock
(Oh, on Filipino Sumbrada? Its a Filipino martial arts drill for Filipino martial artists to learn and familarize with their Filipino martial art. I hardly teach Sumbrada, but I will not put a Filipino/Archipelago black belt on the streets without working Sumbrada handily. Its a Pacific, martial arts rite of passage. A staple. I NEVER show it to the CQC students.)


« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 01:38:46 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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Hock

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2006, 08:49:20 AM »

"Hocks'(or anyone else's for that matter) training methodology against SBG training methodology". 

You know, I am not to sure I agree there is a "versus" disagreement.
I agree about doing the wrong drills too much. Its very simple.

But it is good business practice for SBG or any group to dump me into the "The drill people" category so I can be classified and then pushed aside as misguided. Smart business.

But knowing me?  Is knowing I am actually the "hand, stick, knife, gun combat scenario people" that do just a little "live" drill work for skill development, probably about the same amount of drills SBG does.

Hock
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 08:59:57 AM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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mleone

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2006, 10:34:02 AM »

Its all Semantics It really is...
I agree Hock...

SBG has some good stuff, but drills and patterns can often be misunderstood and misrepresented.
Like I said its all semantics....
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 12:38:13 PM by mleone »
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mebogrr

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2006, 01:36:31 PM »

mleone,

If we were arguing/debating the difference between "alive" drills and dead pattern drills (and I am not an SBG guy, so I can't really tell you a whole lot of difference anyways), you would have a point about "semantics". However, that's not the case here. You have stated that in the SMAC program by SBG that it is humorous that they have a Drills section when it is coming from (someone who doesn't do drills). Our arguement/debate is not semantics; it is that your statement about their drills is incorrect entirely.

Mleone, you are a respected instructor within the Hock family (and Jim McCann has said many good things about you as well.) My whole point is that your statement can easily spin up one of those "guess what Hock's guys think about SBG training" debates on this or another forum that ultimately reflects negatively upon Hock and his instructors for no real reason. I have had to deal with this backlash in the past due to misinformation/misunderstandings and I thought perhaps I could assist in clarifying something up front instead of a big spin up occuring.

Again, I suggest that you contact me directly if you wish to continue talking about this, and we can get to some common ground.  Maybe we can still save this thread by focusing on some of the ideas that Hock has put forth in his posting. :)

Hock,

Thank you for the thoughful posting. I have never seen your ideas on drilling broken out so well before (granted, I am sure I have simply missed past opportunities). So , from your training program, do you ever spin up the "pattern" drills (be it hubud/hubad, sumbrada, etc) into a heavy/full contact scenario? I know you drill to beat/break the pattern, but what about, for example, mid-to-heavy contact versions of these drills, with the intent to actually hit, in order to ratchet up the realism?

Has anyone else tried this type of training? Any successes or failures you'd care to chime in with?
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Hock

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2006, 02:19:13 PM »

Thank you for the thoughful posting. I have never seen your ideas on drilling broken out so well before (granted, I am sure I have simply missed past opportunities). So , from your training program, do you ever spin up the "pattern" drills (be it hubud/hubad, sumbrada, etc) into a heavy/full contact scenario? I know you drill to beat/break the pattern, but what about, for example, mid-to-heavy contact versions of these drills, with the intent to actually hit, in order to ratchet up the realism?

Actually no. I would rather crank up the combat scenarios than Hubad.

I only use a block, pass and pin (hubad) drill in just about each module only briefly to introduce a person to the raw mechanics and possibilities.

a) the block....and then inside the arm responses
b) the pass... and then split arm responses
c) the pin...and outside the arm responses

right and left high
right and lefty low

I might use a differing but similar drill for a quick spell, as a taeching tool, to create some enlightenment. Anything that we do hard core and fuller force? We do in the combat scenarios. No drill involved. The scenarios are staged at first for learning, and then the end product is not staged. The increasing force comes along in that arena. The staged-to-unstaged part. 

Its that Joe Hubbard phrase..."You can't learn how to swm in a tsumani. You start in a still pool." kind of approach.

Trying to make parts of the hubad drill pattern work under hard force, is trying to justify the drill pattern as realistic. I don't think the drill is that realistic. It think it is running tires in football practice, compared to playing the game. There are on tires out on the field.

I think you can have some fun with it and go very hard doing the drill, but it is about the insert - the tactic, not struggling to make the drill reputable...damn! I don't know if I am explaining myself well or not on this...

But, we don't try to "beat the drill"  per say, just beat the tactic because the tactic can come at you in any drill or no drill at all, and beating the drill is kind of the wrong thing to worry about. Beat the attack, not the drill. Forget about the drill quickly, like a footballplayer forgot the tires, but he is better because he ran the tire drills. We try not to over elevate its value.

BUT ANYWAY! every hand strike, knife stirke and much grappling we very sparingly use this drill as a elementary school introduction to some of the possibilites and body mechanics...then we chunk the drill!

The tyical SFC basic module...say UC level 4 strike: The hammer fist

>Solo command and mastery (in the air by yourself, using the clock patterns)

> Solo hitting stuff (pads, shield and bags)

> Partner Drills
         * focus mitts
         * Skill drills ( a little dose of Hubad/Block/Pad and Pin if it works, and any other worthy
                          little exercise
to enhance savvy, skill, and better understanding)

>Counters to the tactic

>Combat Scenarios - experiment in using it in scenarios
                              * hand to hand
                              * knife aps
                              * stick aps
                              * gun aps
                              * standing, kneeling, maybe sitting and most certainly on the ground.


That is the sketch of a typical tactic module. The skill drill, usually is a Hubad, is jsut a small, intro part in the overall savvy of the tactic.

I tell ya too, Hubad is a great tool to have in the ol' instructors tool kit for some "patients." There are some people that need 200 hundred hours of hubad! 500 hours to get their act together and an unstructor can write a perscription for hubad for that one sick patient.

I go to some martial arts places and they beg me to do martial arts drills. Its a business and I do "sing for my supper" and if they want em.' by God, I can dance all night long with the best of them.

<<<>>>

Matt has been given bum rap reputation from some in the martial arts world because many people just blanketedly assume he is against ALL drills, which he is not, but somehow when he started out, this tag got plastered on him and it has stuck to this day. Its a perception.

But, I really do understand what he was saying (and Burt) and I really do agree with the overall principle. 

Hock

P.S. On another, somewhat related note? About 16 years ago we did left-handed Sumbrada in an Inosanto seminar. And to this day, my left hand was given a gift of coordination I cannot forget. I still have some new wiring in my brain from that experience. Drills are sometimes a medicine for what ails ya'


« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 02:23:21 PM by HockHoch@aol.com »
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mebogrr

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2006, 03:12:04 PM »

Man, now this is good stuff! If every thread turned out like this, I think I'd probably post all the time!

So, hubad is sort of like 'training wheels' in the sense of being a skill developer, but once the inserts are learned and worked, you start working the more realistic scenario drills in a far higher percentage and much, much less of the hubad.

I know some intructors work the more "combative" hubad, which is what led me to my initial question. I never thought about it in the terms of using hubad initially, and then, for the most part dropping it off. Upon reflection, I think I am guilty of being a "drilling expert". I will work to correct this situation.

So, in keeping with the idea of working up to more realistic training scenarios, and keeping this in the stick arena, is Killshot sparring sort of the ultimate expression of stick combatives? I have only seen the snippits of it included in some of your stick material in the Training Mission series, but I would think one could get pretty realistic under those conditions.

BTW, upon looking at my earlier posts, it might appear that I was badgering mleone in an attempt to "win" a debate. So, mleone, I apologize if I seemed to be riding you into the ground. It was not my intention.
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Milldog1776

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2006, 03:44:24 PM »

Man, now this is good stuff! If every thread turned out like this, I think I'd probably post all the time!

So, hubad is sort of like 'training wheels' in the sense of being a skill developer, but once the inserts are learned and worked, you start working the more realistic scenario drills in a far higher percentage and much, much less of the hubad.

I know some intructors work the more "combative" hubad, which is what led me to my initial question. I never thought about it in the terms of using hubad initially, and then, for the most part dropping it off.

I would add that every training day can't be full combat scenario day. Sometimes you need to rest the body, and just work on some skill development. Keep doing Hubad...just don't fixate on it.
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mleone

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2006, 06:19:44 PM »

Quote
BTW, upon looking at my earlier posts, it might appear that I was badgering mleone in an attempt to "win" a debate. So, mleone, I apologize if I seemed to be riding you into the ground. It was not my intention.

I was not about to spin a debate honestly..
I understand where you are coming from.
I respect your opinion, SBG guys are good guys. I found the humor in it because in the past many were accusing Hock of doing drills & dead patterns when some one in our camp posted a hock seminar. So  thats why I brought that up. I wasnt try to debate or even give it much energy. I respect your opinion. Besides because I found humor in it doesnt mean that any one has to agree or disagree. I respect your opinion either way. Its not about the drill its the insert. Just like if I was doing a ground drill. Its not rolling around on the ground, its seizing an opportunity in order to learn timing speed and technique included all wrapped up into the proper counter. Its about creating opportunity much like Hubud. Its not the drill but the many things that sprout from it..
In the end many people use drills and flow drills, patterns etc. these  are all words used analagous to each other. They are similar in nature and often misunderstood. How you define and understand Hubud often can define how you use it..In the very end its what things mean to you and you control that.

Mleone.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2006, 06:29:01 PM by mleone »
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Hock

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 06:31:16 PM »

So, in keeping with the idea of working up to more realistic training scenarios, and keeping this in the stick arena, is Killshot sparring sort of the ultimate expression of stick combatives?

Only in terms of stick vs. stick. How likely is that though? and the exact same sized stick?

Impact weapon combatives is:
   your stick versus unarmed
   your stick versus knife
   your stick versus some cqc gun threats
   you unarmed versus his stick

The stick versus stick killshot is just somethign we do like in the same way as kickboxing is something we have to do in the unarmed course.  "Nothing replaces ringtime" for character building...yet..yet kick boxing ain't a real fight-fight.

and stick versus stick sparring, in the park, killshot or anywhere is just not the end-all, be-all in this crazy mixed modern weapons world.

Hock

Hock

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #13 on: September 19, 2006, 09:19:30 AM »

and stick versus stick sparring, in the park, killshot or anywhere is just not the end-all, be-all in this crazy mixed modern weapons world.

This really speaks to the giant mental disconnect of so-called reality fighters and the ultimate reality systems they think they are creating. The misleading stick idea is that a 28-inch stick versus a 28-inch stick is the common stick fight (?) and is the ultimate test of using an impact weapon in real combat.

The "real" reality stick tests are like ...using a baton to defeat a knife attacker or...or fighting multiple opponents armed with mixed weapons. Or ground fighting with a stick in the mix.

Killshots and park fights are alot like kick boxing, just parts of overall conditioning, experience and development.

The ulimate reality test is in mixed weapon combat scenarios....AND!!!

YOU MUST A COACH or a JUDGE STOP THE SCENARIO when a party strikes a serious enough blow. Otherwise, the winning blow is ignored and the whole exercise degrades into a silly wrestling match to submissions or chokes. This is the gavest mistake of so-called relaity systems. Ignoring the real fight finishers because you can't "pressure test" REAL strikes in training sessions. 

Some things cannot be pressure-tested in training. They just fucking work. They have worked historically in the past. They work now and they will work in the future. When these vaulable tactics are ignored because they simply cannot be done in concept of pressure-testing training? Then training doctrine accidentally degrades into a bunch a damn kids wrestling. When these fight-nders are simulated, a coach must say,

"whoa Ralph - you didn't see or feel this, but Johnny here just...(whatever)..."
[/b]

The proper response is rewarded for Johnny. Ralph learns to defend against fight-finishing moves.

I have seen it through the decades in Brazilian Ju-Jitsu more than anything.  Fight-enders ignored because you really can't do them while "rolling." Its just a MA class! Years go by. the doctrine becomes skewed. Now, UFC guys are beating and kicking the smack-hell out of wrestlers.

<<<>>>

But back on the subject...Hubud is not really a drill made for reality pressure testing in redman suits, like the bare frame of a car won't do well in a NASCAR race. Trying to make that bare-frame car win is almost a losing propisition and using it for the wrong purpose. Therein lies all the dead drill confusions. Folks can have lots of fun with the hubud drills (doing them with legs is a real physical enhancer and quite enlightening) As long as folks have their head on straight in the big picture.

Mebogrr, please feel free to use these paragraphs anywhere and on any forum you want! As Matt has a bum rap for being a "no-drill" guy, I also have a bum rap for doing some "sissy/dead" drill guy. Any spread of clarifying explanations for the both of us? Would help the both of us.

Hock



Hock

Hock

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Re: Interesting observation
« Reply #14 on: June 29, 2008, 07:43:19 AM »

Interesting to reread...

And were TODAY on the international, martial world radar are some of the names mentioned?

Hock
 

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