Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Hock]

On another issue that is related to the military topics.

I took so much flak only 7 or so years ago writing about Rex Applegate and World War II Combatives. The general assumption back then was, "How dare I even mention the topic!" If I didn't drop to my knee and worship it completely and thoroughly? I said nothing negative, praised Applegate and I was still really chastized.

But these days I wonder, has WW II Combatives sort of been knocked off its high horse by Krav Maga? In the way that most WW II people have now been force-fed the truth that there does exist OTHER military fighting systems that did not originate in Shanghia, China? Has it been largely forgotten? Almost an asterisk in history? Yes? No?

I mean, look at all the Krav schools worlwide of all types and look at all the WW II schools.

Hock

[JimH]

WWII combatives is purely one sided in its intent,attack the enemy and eliminate him quickly,this is done by crushing stomps,followed by knees and or kicks to the groin or followed by egde of hands and or elbows to the throaymneck,face,attacks to the eyes and ears.
The end product was to be fast elimination so the combatant could move on.

In Original miliatry Krav Maga these basic attacks were covered and employed,(believed to have come from the British) they were used along with the fitness aspect of Boxing and wrestling.

Military applications and usage has one goal or outcome and this is not conducive to civilian applications,unless one has their life threatened and can articulate that to a court.
(an edge of hand crushing blow to the trachea is not a reaction acceptable by the court to a drunk calling you a name,or some one putting their hand on you)

Miltary WWII is best left to where it belongs ,the battlefield.
What is taught as Krav Maga and other arts ,like BJJ,are not conducive to battlefield combat,they are civilian usable.

Krav Maga has a place in the civilian populace as it is a Martial art,which is not much different from other TMAs like Tae Kwon Do,shotokan,Judo,Aikido,Hapkido or any other Art based system.

WWII combatives is becoming lesser known in its true form,there are many offshoots and different aspects attached to it today,and many who claim to teach it do not.
Nelsons system was not true it was an off shoot.
Wolfe's Defendo is not true WWII combatives it is Hapkido,Jujitsu based.
Underwoods system was an offshoot developed for police and civilians.
Bradley Steiners Combatives is an off shoot.

Because a system uses edge of hand and attacks the collar bone up does not make it WWII combatives.

Once the core art is softened or watered down it is no longer the true art it is an off shoot,what is called WWII Combatives is not true to its need,which is battlefield usable,killing techniques.

Krav Maga as taught to civilians is not the true military art it is a civilian usable art form which instills a level of aggression and asks participants to continue to attack the enemy till they are sure they have stopped the attacker,this creates legal Grey areas,but then you get the same response as those who only train WWII combatives,"i would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

Is all fair in self defense?,the law defines what is and isn't and many who go beyond just ending the confrontation find it out in court.

Krav Maga is a big seller in the last decade as is most so called Military based arts,but what you get is not true Military anything,unless it shows you how to kill the enemy off quickly,if not then it is civilian Martial arts/civilian self defense.

If anyone has opportunity to meet any old members of the OSS,many can still show and use the techniques they were taught over 60 years ago,and it is true WWII combatives,not ever mistaken for any thing else,and they have not trained to maintain it it is just that way.

It would be hard to have a school for just WWII combatives,as it was developed to be easily taught,functional,easy to remember and easy to learn,so after a weekend your student base is gone,never to return,they can maintain on there own if they choose,though they do not need to,so you had better have something else to teach and you better have a good lawyer or Not held liable form in play when your students go out and use it.

Krav Maga is a Martial art for civilians,it incorporates fitness with fighting and has a belt structure which takes years to perfect,time is not on the side of Military combatants as time for training is short and defined.

Marine Corps MCMAP has belt levels,it encompasses all aspects of a persons life not just combat,it takes time to rank in,but if you are going into combat they will teach you the 185 techniques for the battlefield,though you do not get ranked in it.
185 techniques in a weekend ,now that is combat art,usable.
It is not taught to civilians.

I am not just picking on Krav Maga,it was mentioned as opposed to WWII combatives,any and all arts/systems that take time which claim to be military combatives fit the same  mold as Krav Maga.

[Bri Thai]

I'm straying from the WW2 Combatives crowd.  After an initial enthusiasm I was put off by their elitist words and derision of many others, including our very own Hock.  Even if you disagreed a tiny bit you were branded a "trouble maker" and generally treated like crap.  There is a very negative cult-like thing going on there (or was) and I just don't like to join the crowd.

There are also specific flaws in their so called guaranteed fight winners, as well as a distincti lack of convincing examples of their style being effectively used for real.

Here's a quick run through....

Chin Jab - great if you can pull one off in a real go.  Good if you use deception for a pre empt as long as you're prepared to get very close.  When it's all out and all arms and legs?  Difficult to get in.

Tiger's Claw - to all intents and purposes this is a straight punch, but hitting with the palm heel.  I know the angle of the hand is supposed to get the fingers in the eyes first...... but that is incidental.  OK as it goes.

Axe Hand - awkward to get the vertical axe hand in.... and the "arm across your face" set up for the horizontal  axe hand is a poor position in my view.  All someone has to do is push on your elbow and you're all tied up.  They can also spin you round and take your back.  Of course it is deadly if you get a full blown chop into the throat..... its getting it thats hard to do!

Inside edge of boot kick - a little awkward position, but not bad if you can get it.

Outside edge of boot kick - as above, with the added danger of putting your opponent out of your own primary fighting arc momentarily.  I'd save it for an opponent who presents himself from the side, and then turn to face him as soon as I could.

Of course "Get Tough" has all kinds of other techniques in also, some of which are just a little silly.

I can see what the guys were trying to do back in '42, and they didn't do a bad job.,  But their results have been over hyped by a manic minority with self serving agendas.  They spew out all kinds of stories of how invincible the techniques are, and buying a couple of tapes, training alone, is all you will ever need.  Nonsense.

It would be interesting if instructors of note re-visited the original ideals and necessities of WW2 to see what they would come up with today.  My guess is that the best guys around today would come up with some very different things.

That may be an interesting thread.......

[Nick Hughes]

Oh I to have some issues with it...not as many as Bri, but some

It was perfect for what is was designed for in the day i.e. training troops quickly in something simple that they could use in life and death combat against the enemy in a world war.

Now, if that was the mission today - and I emphasise the necessity to teach quickly (people who've no other training) then I'd probably differ very little from what was taught then.

Now therein lies my problem.  We are not limited by the time we have to train.  I've been training for 36 years now and intend to train for the next 36.  I'm not heading off to war either so I, back on the door, have to manhandle guys who I can't dispatch with chops to the windpipe or kicks to the knees.  My students, some of whom are in corporate America can't dispatch Johnny the Loung lizard at the company baseball game when he gets out of hand either.

Where I do think it's strength lies is in the training methods and not necessarily the techniques.  Fairbairn et al had set up kill houses to train their guys replete with piped in music, fireworks, smoke, disorietation tactics and so on back in the 40s.   That training under stress is something a lot of TMA schools still haven't cottoned on to today.

Nick

[JimH]

Wow,I should have read this thread before I answered the new WWIII training thread,but then again my answer would still be the same: a Form of WWII combatives is what I would use,and what is used (simialr basic,simplistic,versatile techniques) by many Spec Ops units around the world.

Training for the Battlefield is different from training for the street,killing quickly with aggression means the targeting zones are limited,especially if the H2H combatants are in gear,that means we have the tops of the feet,knees,groin.and the collar bone up, with the collar bone.throat,chin ,face,nose and eyes,depending in the gear of the opponent maybe the ears but not likely.

So this means the kicks are kept low,knees are employed,maybe grabbing the upper torso and launching in with the knees monkey flipping ?pulling the enemy over and rolling to a top position where you cross choke or strike the throat,to open hand attacks into the small opening of the neck,perhaps the chin,face attacks,closed fists were not wanted as the ability to break the hand on the skull or the helmet.

So targeting is limited,therefore strikes are limited and not far off from what WWII combatives used.
Then again I am partial as this is then methods I was trained in from 1974 through to 1990.
My time in the military we learned to kill the enemy not engage him in a sport,nor did we train in Police usable tactics for when our mission changed from killing to holding and escorting.If we talk War,Combat,battlefields and Only killing the enemy then WWII like combatives is the way.
(again ,at least to me,lol)

[JimH]

WWII combatives is not a Be all and end all,it is meant as a fast method of instruction for those going into War/Cambat/the battlefield.

These troops do not have the time to train for long periods in a traditional,time consuming art,they need the nuts and bolts of Injuring and killing the enemy,they need it fast,it must be simple to learn,simple to implement,simple to remember.
but
It does not truly equate to usage on the street as the street and the law do not allow purely injuring and killing the opponent,except under extreme circumstances,we should train in some other art,reserving our combatives for the emergency.

Most encounters do not require killing the opponent so a sport model may be usable as in boxing or Judo,but Cestari trains in and teaches Jujitsu as it was used and developed pre WWII,where it included all ranges of combat with kicks,strikes,standup grappling,locks,throws,take downs and ground.

O'Neil ,of WWII combatives Fame ,was a high ranked and a proven Jujitsu player as were members of the Shanghi Police,as were members of the British Military assigned to work with the Police,this is why much of combatives has a Pre WWII Jujitsu format/Base.

It is true that if one had limited time to train a person and if that person were to never train an art but had to protect themselves then WWII combatives is a good place to start and for many to also stop.

As I have said before,members of the OSS have had meetings and have still been able to use their art of WWII Combatives,even though that is the limit to their training and years have gone by without up keep of technique or training,they still can use it,so it has advantages,it also has disadvantages as legalities of street usage.

WWII combatives is not a be all and end all,it is a tool with a specific purpose and specific need,needs which are not permitted across the board in Self Defense.

[Rawhide]

I think its desperate for its own survival.  All these guys are stuck in a time warp- captured by the idea that nothing since WWII has been 'proven'.  Got a student just today who said he got a package of the stuff.  Even talked with one of the guys who said as muc.  Seems that anything not Fairbanks/Sykes is 'unproven'.  Have to laugh.  I guess all the Filipino arts used in WWII are unproven as well or those that have taken place in death matches and survived are unproven as well.  Oh well... I think  I'll just go and practice some of my unproven stuff. 

[theardri]

VERY late I know, and I guess an introduction of sorts,

I am/was a student of Geoff “Tank” Todds  (New Zealand’s CQB/combatives Chief instructor). I only actually did phase one (with a smattering of Phase 2 stuff) before moving to the USA to persue my career as a Chemist. I’m in Milwaukee now, and well my choices for real time training are Krav Maga, Systema, or traveling to Chicago to a School there. I am considering he first and last one as viable.

What Geoff teaches is an out growth (read evolving) form of Combatives. It’s got a lot of the stuff one saw from Applegate, Fairbairn, Nelson, etc (not surprising as Geoff Trained with Applegate and Nelson). It has however made some changes too. Sure a lot of what I learned as a Civilian was for well Civilian applications (I really do not need to do bayonet drills for hours to do self defense!) but a lot of the changes was stuff that was not up to snuff anymore too! I am sure he (Geoff) has borrowed/stolen from a bunch of sources.

I have a great deal of respect for Cestari and others too, and I would love to learn from Mr  Cestaris heirs, but at the same time, WW2 Combatives is not “all there is”. My plan is while I stay in the USA to try an learn (either from tapes (ugh) or real teaching) from as many different Combatives, and RSBD schools as I can. Who knows when I go back (and I will one day) and rejoin Tank’s school (and I shall) I can bring some more fresh ideas home.

It could be worse, the attitude of many MMA guys makes the nostalgia of the Combatives guys refreshing!

[Nick Hughes]

Theardri

Welcome to the nuthouse mate.  Good to have you here.

Nick

PS: If you bump into a guy called Arnold on the forum...run like buggery...he's as mad as a bucket of spiders

[theardri]

Wadda Mean? I'm normal and well adjusted, just ask anybody, well maybe not anybody. I just got a warm fuzzy feeling when i saw another member of the Wallabie piss drinkers fron Down Blunder get on the talk forum as I needed a new target, besides cement heads and their psycho views on Islam and terrorism.
Welcome to the nut house. A free demo ride on the short bus is reserved for you along with a large frosty. Feel free at anytime to ask for info in regards to taking shots at Uncle Nicky or Kentbob, or anyone else.

Old chap you have me confused with an Australian.  I'll send you a map and give you a wildlife and history lesson if you need it cleared up?

I’m not here to take shots. I reserve that for the insecure.

Do have a wonderful day. It is after all Friday the 13th (if for some reason this worries you)

Gareth Damian Thomas (aka theardri)

[theardri]

Theardri

Welcome to the nuthouse mate.  Good to have you here.

Nick

PS: If you bump into a guy called Arnold on the forum...run like buggery...he's as mad as a bucket of spiders

Noted. But the fact I practive Combatives should not have me running

I've been online since the early 1990's and know how to stay out of a flame war (almost as well as how to instigate one  )

If any Wolfpack members feel the need to be macho, then so be it. I'm not here to play politics (I got into science rather than that crap), I am here to learn, and see Mr Hocks views! It's that simple. Not here to argue. not here to insult, that however does not make me an easy target.

Anyway here's a big G'day for you. That might be the only time I say that here, as I'm from Dunedin, and well my accent is usually not tagged as antipodean.

Slan agat

Gareth

[theardri]

Hello Theardi,
I know some of those guys you mentioned.
AND, the WW II guys in NZ and Australia are a bit different than the ones you may meet in the USA. The guys by you are more friendly and open. Their source influences are jst a tad diffenent. Here is the USA (and even a bit in England) you may meet some..well...real wankers.

I’ve noticed  I got Wolfpacked last year for just mentioning Tank. *shrug* Kiwi’s and Ausies tend to be polite (till picked on) it is true, I can only speak for the Kiwi’s I know, but we don’t tend to appreciate braggarts! Hell my PhD got me more ridicule than respect (“what did you waste 5 years of your life for mate”). I picked this forum as well, I’ve heard little bad (I also recognized your wrap techniques at a glance , I am betting I know where Tank got them from

But as a question, as I am always curious, why do have an interest in things like Krav and Systemi?
Do you think that they are automaticilly better because they use the term military or are connected with the military?
Are you just interested in a broad sweeping look at military systems while you travel?

I’ve waned in my interest in Systema, after investigating it for a year (reading, looking at classes, doing a few) I decided, thanks but no thanks, any combat form that at times encourages you to TAKE a hit is not my bag.

I will not go back to TMA and MMA (TMA because the uniforms are not my thing, and I don’t bow to anyone I fight, and MMA well my testosterone levels have lowered and I don’t do competitions, which seems to be their thing).

I do not think anything is “automatically” better, hell I went into my CQB class skeptical, and a few weeks later managed to use a technique or two (knife disarm, followed by a nice axe kick) to walk away with my hide and my leather trench still intact. If I relied on my Martial arts training from previous years I would have “X blocked it” and probably gotten cut and been wondering where I was going to afford a new coat!

Of the options IN Milwaukee I have Krav or Systema. Like I said Systema is just not doing it for me. I am going to start Krav soon, but have a small bit of surgery that needs done first. I like a lot of what I see in Krav, the kicks worry me, but hey I can mix and match! I always have. I am also in touch with a group in Chicago, that does “Black Arts military unarmed combat” (some group in Canada) as the core of it’s stuff (plus some Apache Knife fighting (worries me a little)). The instructor I believe is interested in seeing some of the Todd system in person, rather than the atrocious tapes out there.

If you search on those terms here, you will find a wealth of commentary and research on those topics. I must say warn you that the brunt of the Systemi talk is almost all bad. And those folks to talked about are really old, multi-system veterans.

Milwaukee will start to get real cold, real fast!

Hock

Yeah no one, from Geoff to the WolfPac (and now you (many thanks sir)) have anything nice to say about it. I was curious, and now, well I am glad I spend no more than a few miles of petrol to get there. UGH. Oh and it was in a shitty part of town (my car is not great, but I was not sure if I would see it after class when I went).

Oh and Milwaukee IS getting cold (mutter) this is my third winter here, and I to be honest hate it. If I was not actually enjoying my job, I would be working harder to move to either coast!

Thanks for the honest and forthright reply, this makes me very keen to keep reading this.

Slan agat

Gareth (call me this or theardri folks I will answer to almost anything).

PS If anyone wonders I do lurk on other forums under this nickname, just because I am there does not mean I subscribe to the philosophy there. I like to look!

[JimH]

http://www.black-arts-society.com/michalik.htm

I am intersted in what makes this  a Black art society?,lol.

The instructor,master Michalik,has never served in the military or Police,though he credits training a Canadian unit,he is TMA and sport based with no documented warfare so it is a catch name to catch those who believe such crap.


This guy is selling crap:
Counters to al qaeda's Training manual
Principals of CQB
Enemy neutralization
Anti terrorist knife fighting
anti terror tee shirt
LOL,my Oh my ,LOL

Please save your money and time

Look at materials that the real military and police use or recommend.

You have years in Combatives and CQB buy a dummy and or get a partner and train your stuff.
Look at similar materials like Hocks,Like Nicks ,like Joe Hubbard's,Like Sapp SAS H2H,Like combat hapkido,like combat krav maga,stuff by Glen Boodry or Burke and Cestari,US Navy V42,usable real world usable stuff.
Most Krav Maga is TMA like,and not unlike TKD.

Stay away from crap that pretends to be Military or Police

Just my two cents.

[theardri]

http://www.black-arts-society.com/michalik.htm

I am intersted in what makes this  a Black art society?,lol.

The instructor,master Michalik,has never served in the military or Police,though he credits training a Canadian unit,he is TMA and sport based with no documented warfare so it is a catch name to catch those who believe such crap.


This guy is selling crap:
Counters to al qaeda's Training manual
Principals of CQB
Enemy neutralization
Anti terrorist knife fighting
anti terror tee shirt
LOL,my Oh my ,LOL

Please save your money and time

Look at materials that the real military and police use or recommend.

You have years in Combatives and CQB buy a dummy and or get a partner and train your stuff.
Look at similar materials like Hocks,Like Nicks ,like Joe Hubbard's,Like Sapp SAS H2H,Like combat hapkido,like combat krav maga,stuff by Glen Boodry or Burke and Cestari,US Navy V42,usable real world usable stuff.
Most Krav Maga is TMA like,and not unlike TKD.

Stay away from crap that pretends to be Military or Police

Just my two cents.

Thanks for the heads up (I looked at their site and was a tad worried), the problem is the guy in Chicago (http://www.defensive-arts.org/) is at least in someway (or comes across) affiliated with the police. Mind you I am used to a more “transparent’ world than what I get here (a spade is a spade). If anyone is interested I have a copy of this lots (the Black arts) Phase one stuff (emailed too me), I will be honest (as I’ve received it at work) I have not looked at it, let alone taken my Todd system manual out to compare it.

I am sadly a little way away from (I think) combat Krav classes (why did I have to find work in bloody WI??). But if nothing else a couple of free (poorly taught) Krav classes will fire me up to find SOMETHING that is not garbage.

I am training my stuff (currently training with a (mini) smatchet… yeah I know retro but I like it, a lot). I am unlikely to get a training partner (hard to find one here), and signed a “no training” contract with Geoff when I joined. He’s been good to me, and no way am I about to do that to him.

And yes I know not to go near Lt.X, I had worked that one out when I first got Spammed by it. Similarly SCARS is out (price and premise)

Your two cents are more like two pence in exchange rate value if nothing else I now have more names to track down.

Ok back to the lab I go

Gareth

PS he has access to Al’qaeda’s training manual… no comment.

[redfive]

 I went back through some of my old documents, when I saw the name Geoff Todds. He was a member of the same combat federation as Capt. Ben Mangels. When I got my 1st dan in jujitsu my certificate was through the World British Federation of Martial Arts.  They then droped the British part when Ben and my formal instructor opened a school here in Texas. Todds was a listed instructor, along with a list of realy scary looking people. Most of them are all military types. And I guess they would be of the wwII combatives type training. Then later Ben formed a nother federation with the same group
                         Anyway Mangels was the real deal and anyone he would indorse is worth checking out.

 So my question to Hock is: Is Ben Mangels A WWII combatives instructor or a modern combat or both
                                                                                 
                                                                                                               Redfive