Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[410indashade]

While practicing my rappell today I had just come of the tower and was comparing experiences with a fireman who told me he and his whole engine company had to requalify because recently four of New York City's firemen had to jump from a fifth floor explosion.  Three of the NYFD's bravest died as a result of injuries sustained it that jump.  "If just one of them had been carrying a bailout bag, like we do they all could have gotten out safely," he said.  I always looked at the rappell as a way to get from where I was to where I needed or wanted to be, that is all a means of tranportation.  Does anyone know of similar situations when rappelling resulted in a successful self-rescue?  I'm not even sure where this can be applied.  Obviously, in an out of control fire above the first floor of a multi-story buiding or in the case of a parachutist caught in a tree.  Are there any others.  Or is this another load of B.S.         

[Hock]

I think on a case-by-case basis , rapelling is hardly, if ever used by SWAT and emergency teams.

A fireman....are they all wearing rigs on every fire, along with all their other heavy gear? In case a floor explodes? What are their lines secured to first, in anticipation of such an emergency rapell? Hooked on a window sill at the last minute?

I think the old rapelling course is more a standard rite of special team passage these days, than actually used. I have had SWAT folks tell me this for years. Some even giving up the rapelling practice.

I guess they should all know how, but how often is it really used?

Hock

[JimH]

The NYFD  had allowed members to carry and use bail out rigs,then they came out with an order outlawing the use of the Bail out rigs,now after the incident talked about above they reinstituted the use of such rigs.

When your entry/escape route to the exit,stairway are cut off  you clip into the building area between two windows  or clip into a secured,hopefully secured object,like a radiator or if you make it to a roof you anchor around an object like the railings of a syatirway,or around a structure on the roof.

Now many men and many departments have repel harnesses on their turn out gear.

I was trapped and burned in my first job and  never went to a job after that without my own clip,harness and line.
Then the department made the harness and rope mandatory.

With parachuting the reserve was used as the lowering line if  low enough,I also carried a length of line in my cargo pocket for getting down from a tree,just in case we were dropped away from the DZ,which rarely happens,LOL.

I have trained regularly in use of the bail out bag and the regular roof repel bag on the departments and been trained in self repel and being lowered from the roof to pick up people stuck in windows at jobs.
I have never had to be lowered and make a rescue at a fire but many have ,NYC did one just the other day and they have made many news worthy rope rescues.

I have used fast roping,STABO and SPIE rigging and the penetrator/extractor in the miliatry.

I  have used climbing and repel lines and harnesses in rock climbing

My local Police Department ESU trains and uses repel rigs in multy story building Hostage rescue and barricaded individual,it is used as an outside platform to break windows,throw in Flash Bangs and CS.

Some NYC department medics wear or carry rigs as well.

How much it is actually used is hard to say,but for me ,having been trapped in a Backdraft,if I had to have it and use it only once,it is way better than being on fire and having to think of  jumping from an upper floor with nothing but the hope I make a good PLF and live.lol.

Look at 9/11 and the Trade Center,those people knew they would not live and they willing jumped to certain death,so I would rather be prepared than make that choice.

Outside of the military,Police ,fire, some EMS/Medics and rock climbers I doubt Repel and or Bail out bags are used much.

[Nick Hughes]

Hock,

They rapelled in "operation Joker" when the SAS took down the bad guys during the Iranian Embassy Siege in London.

In the Legion they had us do it the old fashioned way...no harness, just the rope under the thigh, across the back and over the shoulder...a tad warming to the seat LOL.

Like Jim, I'd carry my own rope in case of a jump into the trees during my time with the REP

N

[Hock]

Yes, and don't forget Shaft repelled into that apartment window in the first movie!

But seriously, the Iranian embassy deal is probably the first big reason why repelling and early SWAT and special teams got started doing it as a standard.  It has consistantly been used a standard. Free standing building, etc.

But I wonder on the the books, raid-by-raid in the last 25 years, how much repelling is actually done by SWAT teams. I think this is why they some organizations quit requiring it in their in-service schools. But it must be done in all certifying Basic SWAT schools. Easy enough to find out more as CopSniper69 is a state, tactical leader, and on board here and knows all the very latest and greatest, opinions, trends and stats.

I do recall many years ago in New York City, a series of interrupted residential burglaries of an expensive high-rise building, and SWAT (then I think just called Emergency Services) surrounded the building like Spidermen, roping in and around the tall building from the nearby tall buildings.

<<<>>>

In the emergency fires, do you have ...what? A simple grappling hook, hook a line on, say...on a window sill? and then quickly jump?  What do you do in that kind of emergency. What is offically suggested?


Hock

PS I had relatives on NYPD when I was a kid and heard stories and knew of this "emergency services" section, from the evening news. They did it all. From shoot-outs, freeing pinned people in car crashes to raids. Amazing group and their recollections would make for a great, old-school, harcover book, huh? DAMN! If I only had all the time in the world.

[JimH]

Many Fire Departments have a full Rappel harness/seat that is worn over the Turn out/bunker trousers,they carry a rope with a clip in a bail out or roof bag.

If the Departments do not have the harness /seat many men carry 30 -50 feet of rappel rope inside their coats with  a basic belt and hook around their waist and a rope with a clip to hook in to a sturdy stationary object.
All you want in a situation where you bail is to get to the floor or two below the fire,(if you cannot make the ground).

The NY Fire and Police ESU use Rappels all the time for rescues on/from bridges or below bridges,to the  Tram,to building rescues of scaffold workers.

How much it is used in actual Police work any more with taking a suspect  is a good question,it is after all just an entry tool,but the higher we go in buildings the more it may be used,as said in my local department it is trained and used regularly as a platform to launch multi directional intrusion.

I would imagine though if a district,area,city whatever has no high building then rappel is not a viable option.

We must also look at the insertion by rappel/Fast roping from Helo's as used by military and some Police.

Any use of any high angle rescue or insertition will require Rappel usage.

In areas with underground water,and sewage tubes Rappel is a method used to lower men and equipment to extricate victims through man holes.

The rappel is still needed and used in many deprtments,just not as much for  the Dramatic Iranian embassy siege type operations with window breeches,flash bangs and the such .
(though still found and done on lesser scales it is a needed skill,depending on number of high rise incidents a police/fire department may have)

[Nick Hughes]

I guess the military applications are getting off the original subject a little but I'm aware of at least two other operations where they rapelled (and not fast roped)...one was when they went from a chopper on to the Yemeni bound ship full of ammo (don't remember the year) and, if memory serves the Dutch anti-terrorist guys used it on one of the train sieges by Moluccan T's back in the seventies.  I also believe RAID or GIGN used it in the school siege in Paris a few years back and I thought the Yanks were using it in Afghanistan to go down canyon walls.  (Maybe Jim's got some insights into the latter)

Nick

[JimH]

The US Military and Coalition partners  in Afghanistan have used Rappel techniques during Operation Anaconda,During Searches and in reaching downed Aircraft.

The FBI HRT teams have used Rappel techniques .

US Park Rangers Special units  used rappel Techniques during 9/11 to secure national monuments like the Statue of Liberty and others.

Royal Marines and SAS used Rappel in the Falklands.

US and Coalition Special Operations have used Fast Rope and Rappel techniques to retake Buildings and embassies in Gulf War 1.

Rappelling from roof tops to retake  buildings is a most used method as many times opponents tend to booby trap ground floor accesses, and entry on upper levels is less likely to be rigged.

[410indashade]

Thank's guys all good input, got me to thinking and doing some looking through my various on-line resources I'd be interested in what you think of the Skedco MOUT line and riggers belt?

[JimH]

Skedco mout system is not designed as a rappel system,it is a dragging line which can double as a ONE TIME use rappel line,add  heat and you lose the tensil strength for rappel use,meaning the line may not last through one rappel.

Look at
Micro rappel systems

Or

Go to a mountaineering store tell them what you need and why and build a lightweight usable system
You need a seat with clip
figure eight or rappel slide
rope
clip for usable end
a bag

You can buy a seat,make a rope seat, or improvise an emergency wrap as Nick described.
I bought a seat and made my own rig ,as did others,prior to it being departmental policy.

Good Luck and Stay Safe

[410indashade]

Thanks, JimH after reading your suggestions I am now the proud owner of a belt and leg assembly, 50 ft. of 9mm climbing line, assorted biners and a figure 8 descender.

[JimH]

410,
I hope you never have to use it in a Real situation.
Get another Line or two and train how to hook in guick,loop into the figure eight and go,as believe me when crap goes wrong it goes wrong Fast.
Having been caught in several Back drafts,trapped  and on the roof of several collapses,two in which I was close enough to see members go in,I can tell you that one minute it is fine ,the next is like a hurricane of wind and fire that rips your mask away and sets you on fire,or the roof or floor beneath your feet gives way ,so training to bail under pressure is a Big Need.

The figure eight descender is the easiest to use,if you go for a carabiner descent ,make sure the carabiner is rated for it and that it has a locking device,not just a snap clip ,as if you wrap in reverse the rope will slide to the snap side and open(which you do not want,lol),this is why I recommend the figure eight,but back up  methods and alternate needs are always good ideas.

Stay safe .
All the best.

[410indashade]

to: JimH,  Excellent advice! Thanks again.

[410indashade]

Just an attaboy to  JimH, I finally got checked out in my new rig today on the rappell tower.  I went off the 3rd story roof but this time went into a window on the second floor to simulate an emergency in a much taller building where my line wouldn't reach the ground.  I used Blackhawk's S.O.L.A.R. harness, Omega Pacific locking carabiner to hook into the seat and a CMI figure 8 descender to loop the carabiner to a 9 mm Mil Std line.   

[JimH]

Nice Job.
Have fun with it and keep training its use,but remember to know the use limit of the line and check for burns,wear or cuts to the line,especially after working going into lower windows as the brick work around the windows (as well as the glass ) will mark the line.
Stay Safe .