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W. Hock Hochheim's

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Hock Hochheim's Combat Talk Forum

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Author Topic: Statistics  (Read 3337 times)

Whiskey Jack

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Statistics
« on: December 23, 2004, 03:49:57 AM »

One thing I've heard Hock say repeatedly during his seminars is the survival rate when being attacked goes down considerably when you simply try to run away.  I'm hoping someone here can point me at the source for this information.

Elsewhere online there's a discussion (read: argument) about a bg attacking someone with a knife and getting shot for his troubles.  A sizable faction state that the shooter should simply have taken off running and "everything would have worked out fine."  I'd like to put that myth to rest with some hard data.
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Hock

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Re: Statistics
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2004, 06:11:48 AM »

...during his seminars is the survival rate when being attacked goes down considerably when you simply try to run away. I'm hoping someone here can point me at the source for this information"

Hard data? No one has collected this exact, hard data. There is not a checklist on a crime report that documents this situation. The FBI is not tabulating this exact question. The individual stories are really anecdotal. In the absence of the hard data, there is nothing left but best assumptions based on common sense from whatever truth you can find.

Most of that information actually comes from military history and research. Since the days of Alexander the Great is has been noted that you are easier to kill from behind. Military historians have long claimed that more men have been killed from behind than from the front!

Two reasons.
1) You de-personalize yourself when you are not facing the enemy.
2) A hunter-prey mentality comes over the enemy.

Martial arts instructors have too long thrown down the easy line, "Turn and run." It may not be that simple. Every situation is different. You may turn and run...and be chased!  That is why the term "Orderly retreat" was invented. This how Alexander the Great had a fraction of then casualties of his enemies. And since, then how smart people train.

Some source material:

An Intimate History of Killing By Joanna Burke.
THIS my friends is the thorough, best study on the subject. 509 pages of stats, cultures, weapons, psychology...you name it. WAY better than...

On Killing by Lt Col Dave Grossman
Grossman has somehow become the poster boy of death for police officers whose first introduction to the subject is through him. I am not a big fan, but the book should be on everyone's "must read" list. My biggest complaint (and MANY others also) is he has a kind of liberal, sociologist's view of the world, leaning toward a non-violent approach to his study. He does not take into consideration the easy violence of say, the teen militia of Sierra Leone or of the Sudan, or even the Marine firing rates in the Pacific in WWII, or today in Iraq! But, ya still gotta read it!

Carnage and Culture, or anything by Dr. Victor Davis Hanson
This guy makes me, Grossman and many others look like pimps in zoot suits. He dissects man-vs. man and unit close quarter battle unlike anyone else. But his sweeping view and giant mind will take you many places you might not want to go. Inside all this he covers the run/disorderly retreat situation.

You are easier to kill from behind. Proven.
There is a strong chance you will be chased. Proven
The two of the above blend together, enforcing each other. Yup.

So, at times, when you turn and run from a criminal or an enemy soldier with a knife? There is a strong chance he will chase. Sometimes he has to prevent your escape, to rob you, to prevent you from screaming for help, etc...

Sometimes you just can't run?
You are the only one under 60 at the Luby's with a crazy man running amok.
You are with your kids.
You have to do something.
Every fight is so situational! So unique and different.

Hock

ves

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Re: Statistics
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2004, 09:20:32 AM »

    Hello everyone,

         I've listed one post on this forum and did not properly introduce myself, sorry all. My name is Virgil, I live in KY, and I have no prior martial arts background. I have been taking Eskrima for about three months now with two instructers who have been very infomative and I do believe both are very capable in their teaching. I know, how can I tell if they are capable if I have no prior training? They do a very good job of explaining and demonstrating things in a way I can understand.


        Well, with that said, on to why I am posting on this paticular topic. This information is good for me. I am fairly non-confrontational and in most situations I will probably just walk away, but, It has never occured to me that someone might actually chase me down, something to think about.


          Lastly, I would like to thank Mr. Hochheim and everyone for the information on this forum.




Virgil 


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"Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gains understanding" Proverbs 3:13

misshinryu

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Re: Statistics
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2004, 12:38:19 PM »

Hock,
I wish you would consider designating a place on your site that deals with recomended reading. Like Opra's bookclub 8)
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Mike Steele
Mercy Triumphs Over Judgement

plouffeka

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Re: Statistics
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2004, 07:20:25 PM »

As I read Hock's response I thought, "He should have a reading list posted like college syllabus's do."  Then I scrolled down to Mike's response and saw I was beaten to the punch.

Well, then I'll just second that notion.

Keith
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Professor

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Re: Statistics
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2005, 07:39:36 AM »

Hock,
I wish you would consider designating a place on your site that deals with recomended reading. Like Opra's bookclub 8)


See the new GENERAL DISCUSSION category......good topic to start....
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seanross

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Re: Statistics
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2005, 02:24:59 AM »

ves>>    I've listed one post on this forum and did not properly introduce myself, sorry all. My name is Virgil, I live in KY, and I have no prior martial arts background. I have been taking Eskrima for about three months now with two instructers who have been very infomative and I do believe both are very capable in their teaching. I know, how can I tell if they are capable if I have no prior training? They do a very good job of explaining and demonstrating things in a way I can understand.

You have asked a very good question and one that comes up in areas other than martial arts.  How can a non-doctor tell if an MD is giving good advice?  How can a non-mechanic tell if the auto mechanic is cheating him or not?  How can a homeowner know if the contractor is doing good work?

The answer is that without becoming somewhat educated yourself, you can't know if a professional in any field is competent or not.  A person reads medical articles, the auto-owner learns a bit about mechanics, the homeowner learns how to do some of the work themselves.  The fighter studies and learns.  That is part of what you are doing now.  Don't be concerned if the first school you go to turns out not to be the end-all and be-all of fighting.  As a beginner, you probably need to give a school 6 months to a year before you will really be able to figure out if it is any good or not.  I started training in 1991.  After 14 years, I can tell in 5 minutes whether a person knows their stuff or not.  That was certainly not true for me in 1991.

Even if you train with a person who doesn't really have a combat mind, you can still learn a lot.    Rawhide started off in Tae Kwon Do.  Ask him if he considers his time "wasted"?  Strength, power, speed, body mechanics.  You will take that with you no matter where you go, so relax and enjoy your eskrima.  Give it a year or so, then find some guys that want to do fight training but have not trained at your school; then do some killshot sparring.  If the style you have learned helps you fighting guys that don't know how things are supposed to work, then you have a decent school.  If not, then supplement your training by going to seminars and starting up your own CQC group.  Personally, I think the key is to get rid of your ego as much as possible and not mind having someone show you that you have been wrong.  For example, I used to think I understood takedowns until a BJJ guy started showing me his stuff.  I am gladly learning something totally new.  As I come to understand it better, I will incorporate the useful parts into my personal fighting style.

I have been training with Hock for ~2.5 years now.  I still train with a traditional tai chi school and practice praying mantis kung fu on my own.  My personal and school training has been greatly enhanced by my CQC training and vice versa.
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"Do not imitate the ancient masters.  Seek what they sought!"
 

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