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[JimH]

The UK Politicians are now looking at stopping all jump training for the paras for four years to save 1 Billion pounds.
If done what happens to the unit?
How do you fill it as needed due to natural attrition?
How do they keep this means of insertion and elite esprit de corps?
After four years  do the Military leaders believe they will reinstate the training and keep the units?
Unbelievable.

[Bri Thai]

Thats what happens when rubber spined beaurocrats get to be in charge.  Everything is about budgets, and nothing about humans.

Its only about 6-7 yars ago they were laying soldiers off as they were "no longer needed."  Now they trying to get more people in.....

Short term financial gain almost always does long term efficiency damage.

[arnold]

And next, the govt wll take away their guns, cause we know they certainly don't need them! Think of all the innocent terrorists that could get shot, how appalling. Makes one shiver just to think about it.
Happy New Year

[Sharif H]

I think excluding jump training from the entire regiment is a bit drastic. Although, bearing in mind that the regiment hasn't had to jump into action since I don't know when - it probably is a waste of money. Most Paras are transported into combat by vehical or go in on foot. But for the sake of not loosing the regiment's jumping capability all together, maybe they could limit it to one of the three main batalians?

As far as I know, the only regiment to drop down from the sky (either by fast-roping or jumping) are SF.

But hey, what do I know?

Sharif

[410indashade]

Whoa sparky are you meaning the British SF?

"As far as I know, the only regiment to drop down from the sky (either by fast-roping or jumping) are SF."

If so, do you mean the SAS or Royal Marine Commandos?

[JimH]

SAS (SF) are not in jeopardy of having their jump status pulled.

The Para Regiments are the ones being talked about to have their jump status cut.

If the Paras have jump status cut,for four  years how will they still have the right to be called Paras?
What will be the qualifier for future members of the paras over the next four years?
after four years without them why would the politicians reinstate them?

Agreed most of the airborne forces of the world are landed by helo or fixed wing,few have jumped into combat,(the US had units jump into Iraq to have combat jumpers in the units),but as in the past the need is there and should be maintained for future employment as when the training is stopped when needed again restarting and bringing units back and qualifying pilots is alot harder.

Without jump qualified Paras,where do the SAS and SBS draw members to qualify for SF ?

Being a Para or jumped qualified is  a Step up the ladder of seperation from being an ordinary soldier to being in the company of more Elite men with a higher standard of Goals ,Skills,Training and esprit de corp,don't screw with qualifiers for professionalism.
(We already had to take Ranger Berets and hand them out Army wide to make the average soldier feel more special and elite,lets not do it to and for ever facet of Specialization)

[Kentbob]

Being a Para or jumped qualified is  a Step up the ladder of seperation from being an ordinary soldier to being in the company of more Elite men with a higher standard of Goals ,Skills,Training and esprit de corp,don't screw with qualifiers for professionalism.
(We already had to take Ranger Berets and hand them out Army wide to make the average soldier feel more special and elite,lets not do it to and for ever facet of Specialization)

This is absolutely true.  When I moved from the paratroops, which is a very small community in the Army, to the mechanized, where anyone who passes basic training can be sent, I saw the difference was like night and day.  The quality of troop and leadership was way higher in the paratroops than in the mechanized.  Granted, this isn't always the case, as I still hear that the 101st is still the Army's premier light infantry division, even though they are no longer Airborne.  In addition, some will undoubtedly question my thoughts on this.  However, paratroopers have to volunteer to go through and addition three weeks of training.  A lot quit simply because they don't feel like dealing with the hassle.  And while it is true that many folks who aren't assigned to an Airborne unit go through Airborne school, the ones who are assigned to an Airborne unit start to develop that mentality.  They become more aggressive, and more concsientious about their jobs.  They make the best NCOs, and best platoon leaders.  The Airborne cares the most about getting the job done right.  The regular infantry generally don't give a damn.  Granted, the British may not have jumped to secure an objective in however long, but American paratroopers jumped in Iraq in '03 to secure an airfield.  That, combined with the fact that Airborne school produces a fiercer spirit and a more mentally fit individual, should speak volumes about why Airborne school will most likely never fade from the U.S. Army, and shouldn't be shelved in the British army. 


Kent

[Hock]

As former Green Beret, Buffalo Nickels sezs to me,

                                           "If you ain't airborne, you ain't shit."




Hock

[JimH]

quote Kent
"I still hear that the 101st is still the Army's premier light infantry division, even though they are no longer Airborne"

While they are no longer airborne,they are a step above the ordinary as many do not wish to be out ahead of the forward edge of battle as air assault and airborne units often find themselves.

The training of the Air Assault is Very Demanding,not as mental as Jumping out of a Working aircraft at 100-140 knots,but demanding none the less.

I had opportunity to train West Point Cadets on their Air Assault course and the small group alone makes them more Gung Ho ,more united and determined in their efforts,more Elite.

Most troops ,and most humans,do not seek to be unique.
They do not seek to do more than required.
Once you step up to do more you automatically move to a higher level and the more levels you accomplish the more you find yourself with more like minded Elite troops.
(we can look at martial arts or CQB and also see the differences of those who try it and leave to those who make it a lives work)

Airborne trainiung is a seperator.
Look at the civilian world and ask how many would willingly jump from a perfectly fine aircraft? Not Many.
The Military is a smaller sphere of the bigger whole of Human populace.

Before the Navy Seals,before Scuba Gear,you had combat swimmers,men who swam and dove to place charges and remove obstacles on the beach,swimmers only,but the job training required and the Guts required made them Elite,made them the Group from which todays SEALs grew.

If we look at the Police Department:
You have those who want to be police Officers ,yet they want to do admin work.
Then you step up the ladder and get Patrol Officers.
Then we move up to other units such as Detectives,Scuba,SWAT,each step up brings more qualifications,more Elitism,more pride,more danger and less room for the wanna bees over the doers.

So even though the British Politicians see Airborne Ops as a thing of the Past it was a qualifier for more than that ability of insertion.
I think if they go forward with this idea they will regret it in the future.

[Bri Thai]

Thats true!

I must disagree with your analogy though.  In my experience the patrol oficer is placed at the lowest point of the scale as regards status, yet he/she faces the most danger of the lot.

Sorry, that's just a pet subject of mine.

Brian S - Patrol Officer!

[Hawkeye]

Oh absolutely Brian.

I work patrol in a city of around 100,000 in Wisconsin. Same shit. Patrol are the first responders to any crime and deal with the violence of the situation but the detectives always get the credit for solving the crime. Usually they go out when everyone’s calm and take a couple statements.

Some administrator (that hasn’t been on the road in 10 years or maybe never bee) reads a cop magazine and says, “Boy that looks cool, our guys should do (or use) that”. Then us uniforms get stuck with some piece of crap.

Perfect example is the ASP baton. We’re stuck with it. I was told that before I started we use to have regular wooden nightsticks. Some officers would “forget” their stick while going in on calls and that’s not allowed.  So to “fix” the problem they issued everyone ASP’s so they wouldn’t forget them. Never mind teaching some effective defensive and offensive uses for the real stick so that the officer would want to remember it.

Patrol always gets dumped on. Does the most dangerous work day and night, any weather and gets paid the least.

Sorry, not trying to steal the thread. I was just talking with someone about this at work and when I saw Brians post I had to chime in.

Happy New Year!


Dan

[Bri Thai]

Happy New Year Dan!

But we have to admit this - we get most fun on patrol...... yes?

 

[Hawkeye]

Wellll....maybe...depends how the day is going.

I've been doing it long enough though that I wouldn't mind trading with one of the desk jockeys so I could get the $10,000 - $25,000 a year they make more then I do now as a kind of "hazardous duty" duty pay.
You know, you could get a splinter in your butt for all that sitting at your desk. Or maybe a paper cut. Or burned making coffee for the Chief. Etc.




Dan

[Nick Hughes]

So of course banning jumping for the paras begs the question will they band diving for the Special Boat Squadron, Tank driving for the Armoured Regiments, and flying for the Airforce.  I mean think of the money they could save.  Hell, while they're at it they could ban bullets and save a shitload of money.

Uncle Nicky

[410indashade]

I'm sure you all will correct me if I'm wrong but you mentioned banning ammunition  for training in your rant Uncle Nicky and I think congress has been headed that way for some years now.  I would not be supprised to see some new restrictions placed on how much small arms ammo can be consumed per unit, per training cycle or even operationally like there once was in Vietnam.