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[Kentbob]

I was talking with a psychologist at the VA today, and he asked me if I ever felt like I was in serious mortal danger when I was in Iraq or Afghanistan.  And I thought about it, and I can honestly say, no, I really didn't.  We had a couple of close scrapes, bullets over my head and such, but I didn't die, so no big deal, right?  I never gave it a second thought, while some of my buddies just went to pieces because they could "feel the wind" of the bullet or some other such.  I just figured, I lived, so what does it matter?  Does anyone have any similar experiences, or some experience under fire where you just sat and thought about it for hours afterwards? 

Kent

[JimH]

Kent,if I may use some of what was said about training in todays military from the other thread.

When we strive to train leaders,yet we fail or reduce the physical and mental demands we place on them,we find more people unable to react as dictated in training,
We have troops and people who question what is going on around them,instead of blocking it out and moving forward.

Training dictates the responses to situations and our thoughts and reactions at the time and what we discuss and feel about the encounter in after action discussions.

Today training is less intense and yet we see many on the verge of breaking under  these small problematic conditions,put them in combat and they crack and fail to adjust and move forward.

I have been in a few situations in the military and in civilian occupations and things happened that had some who were with me and around me melt down and fail to thrive after the actions,they go to pieces and fall apart,yet for some reason I saw the situations differently,moved forward did what had to be done and never thought about the what ifs as they did.

Discussing these situations helps to a degree,when others who shared the experience talk about them amongst themselves,over talking about it with people with different situations or no situational experiences at all.

To me Training and preparations for any encounter are paramount to have a reproducable,favorable outcome with less impact on the person.

This can be done and seen in the military,police ,fire and even self defesne /martial arts, the more one encounters in training the less they shut down when they encounter a real threat,that ability and adaptation are what affect peoples mental actions,reactions and post encounter thoughts.

It used to be Courage and Heroes where words for those who went above and beyond in doing their jobs,now those terms refer to anyone who does their job without question or problems.

Indifference means one does not care about the situation or outcome,when one is directed to carry out an operation,if one cares to be victorious one is not indifferent one is dedicated to that outcome,those who question the action may be seen as indifferent.

Being able to move forward and to do ones job under adverse conditions is just Doing the Job,no special descriptions need to be given those who understand this,the special descriptions need to be given to the insecure who need to be reassured that what they do is indeed special.
                                             .........................................................
The problem with stress and PTSD let say in the Vietnam war, and wars and conflicts since, is that prior to Vietnam men spent time in transit talking and getting through their experiences with others who faced the same situations.
Vietnam and all actions since have men in combat and within the week they are back home with families and civilians and they are supposed to be immediately adjust,this lends to stress as they have not had time to desensitize and get the thoughts of actions and percieved justifications of some actions out of their heads.

Units on return from combat should be taken to a resort of some kind and left to reaclimate and talk about encounters amongst themselves for a month or so ,this would reduce much of the PTSD,in my opinion,as they would see thoughts are not their own problem but shared and that the actions they saw and did are viewed on various plans and can be made more justifiable as it is a shared experience not an isolated experience.

[cgonzales]

dont know about all the psycobabble stuff but you do turn off and do the job then turn on when its over. been there done that dont want to talk about it to any one who wasnt there because they wouldnt get it anyway. just be carefull with what you say to the v.a. guys they dont always have your best intrest in mind.

[Hock]

I have been shot at just a few times, and from a distance, but I have ALMOST been shot as many or a bit more times, close up, a few at a bit of a distance, and have interrupted the process. I think I view both with the same memory/feeling. They don't bother me. I have written about these things on the blog and this forum. I have a weird feeling of "gulp/close-call/lucky," is as close as I can describe it.

Others things physically bother me...
On a sunny afternoon I was patrolling the outskirts of our city. Behind some factories, there was a country ralroad crossing that did not have a crossing, barrier drop and flashing lights when trains approached. I was in a complete and utter, sleepy daydream doing about 20 miler per hour out there. No sleep. Terrible work shifts. I heard a super close up blast of a train horn as I approached this crossing.

A train was blasting through and I DID NOT HEAR OR SEE IT! I actually was close enough to see the conductor's concerned facial features of his head as he leaning out the window, blowing the horn. I "woke up" hit the brakes and the train zipped  by, still about 10 feet from my car.

I am not sure I would have snapped out of my head funk to stop in time without that horn. I just don't know! When I think of that moment, I get a breathless, physical reaction, some 30 years later. WHEW!  I don't feel anywhere close about the shootings, but that train thing? How could I let myself be that stupid and almost be crushed in one minute of stupidity? What bad luck! What terrible timing? That is scary.

I think people have all kinds of weird memories and reactions. I think people can be heros in the desert and cowards in the jungle, and vice versa. And I think - well I know - PTSD can be just as varied and weird it its causes and symptoms.

An old friend and his wife came to visit us last weekend, here in Tennessee. He is a Vietnam vet, an officer who worked in and out of Cambodia. He saw his fair share of hot war. He hardly ever talks about his ten years in the Army, almost all of it over there. This last weekend for some reason he talked A LOT about it. Every time the wives left. Now, in his 60's, he suffers from a weird, situational claustrophobia (he was not a tunnel rat),  and he admitted to me that he is convinced it is linked to Southeast Asia but cannot figure out what the link is. As I said, he is in his 60s and lives a normal life with grand kids and a business, etc. He is an old-school, country boy and he will not EVER go see anybody about it.

I have another friend from South African and Rhodesian commandos who, in his old age? Is just a box of rocks. But the rocks didn't come until he was about 65 or so.

Effects people in differing ways.

Hock

[Nick Hughes]

My theory with the shooting thing...and it's just a theory, is that it effects kids who grew up hunting a whole lot less.  I am always reminded of the General who sent a request back during the Korean war "send me farm boys for god's sake and stop sending me city slickers.  Then I can get this thing wrapped up."  He was referring to the fact that the kids from the city, the first time they became exposed to blood and guts, went to pieces, whereas the kids from the farms who'd hunted, witnessed birth, chopped off nuts, lopped the heads of Turkeys etc were pretty immune to the guns, blood and guts.

I talked to a Marine mate of mine about it who said he thinks PTSD is BS.  I bet him dinner I could tell him something about himself I didn't know.  I then told him "you went hunting with your old man when you were young didn't you?"  Yep, his Dad, his brothers and all his uncles.

Might be something in my theory but I don't know for sure.

Nick

[Hock]

Alvin York, Audie Murphy, MANY were country boys who hunted.

I have said for years and years,
  "You will be more prone to use a knife if you were a hunter, than if you bought your balony in a supermarket."

from which this extrapolates into the overall hunter/soldier theme.


Gutting a deer at least once (or similar big beast) should be a requirement for any so-called, self proclaimed "knife master." Bone and guts. Wet, stink and suction.

But, the hunting theory is well received. Not mandatory, but certainly one in the "Top Ten Reasons why.....

[410indashade]

My Detachment came under repeated fire in Vietnam as did every base in the Central Highlands at the time I don't remember much about those incidents except grabbing my pot and heading for the nearest hole.  In twelve months I watched one guy obsess about it and one other guy have a meltdown and become dangerous to be around.  Of course, at full strength we only numbered 18 and we never reached full strength.  But I don't think there's anything to this country boy theory except possibly when it comes to being willing to use a knife or a gun.  As I recall I was the only country boy in the whole unit.  Everybody else was from Flatbush, NY or Lodi, CA or somewhere just as populace.

[Hock]

But I don't think there's anything to this country boy theory except possibly....

...welll, you don't have to be a "country boy" to have hunting experience. I grew up on the Hudson River by Manhatten but we trekked every fall to Vermont to go deer hunting. Even Bear hunting, but I never shot a bear. Seen a few, but didn't have the license. Got the license, never saw any. But I haven't gone in a LONG time, except for a little beer-drinken' , whiskey-sippen' and dove shooting sessions once and a while.

But, MANY a city-type and suburb type went north or west to PA. In droves, in fact.

(...just as an aside, I just thought of Carlos Hathcock, dedicated hunter since EARLY childhood. Great biography. You are not a member of Man Club unless you've read it!)

[Kentbob]

Alright well...

The psychiatrist told me I'm a 4 out of 4 for the indicators for PTSD.  Which strikes in as strange, also seems like its good to know.  Its weird, I don't see myself as having PTSD, but then, as I understand it, there are varying degrees.  I don't know, like I said, its weird.

As to the getting shot at thing, I wasn't really a country boy, or went hunting, or anything else.  However, I always understood the natural order of things, blood and guts being a part of it.  I was scared out of my mind when we deployed to Afghanistan, but once we got there and got settled, no big deal.  We got shot at, we improvised, adapted, and overcame.  I was always more scared for my buddies when they got shot at, than I was for myself.  I just never gave it a second thought.  In Iraq, I wasn't scared, it was just a job, and blah blah blah.  We got shot at, we did our thing, but some of the guys reacted badly.  Shakes, breaking down, that sort of thing.  My roommate couldn't shut up about it for days, whenever it happened.  I mean, the combat was a bit less intense in Afghanistan, but it seems to me my fellow paratroopers reacted a bit better than some of my buddies in the mechanized, and I think that speaks to another difference between paratroopers and the regular infantry.  Training, and extra levels of training count, and I think the additional agression makes a difference too.  I don't know for sure, just a theory.  Let me know what your thoughts are?

Kent

[JimH]

A few of my sons friends have been to Iraq and or Afghanistan at least once most twice.

They were /are being sent to the shrinks to be evaluated and to me what from what I have been told by them is that the shrinks are not just evaluating and helping ,they are screwing mens careers as once they are said to have PSTD it effects abilities for officers to be promoted,it also effects men who are in or wish to go into spec Ops or High Security rated fields.

What do they feel like ?,what did they experience ?,how do they feel being home ?,do they want to hurt others?,do they use drugs or drink to get by ?

Any yes or expanded answer to any of these is not met with kind help,it is met with career ending entries and recomendations by these so called professional evaluators.

It amazes me that men are fine,they seem adjusted and fine and they go to one of these shrinks and they get told they have PSTD and this sets a negative in motion that would not have been considered,this is bad madicine, to me.

In the civilian world,men and or women exposed to traumatic events and who shut down and live in a fear state,they have PTSD,how do we cure it? we make them get up,go out,interact and for the willing we take them through the scenario and we reenact it,showing them how they might have done something different and we allow them to be empowered and they are able to move on.

We do not take the average man or women in a traumitic event  who feels fine and acts fine and we do not tell them,wow you have potential to develop a stress disorder.

I have told my sons friends what I have said here:
Get together with others who were in your unit and bounce stuff off of each other as it works better than a shrink,except you do not get the meds.
Have a drink have a laugh and get thoughts and feeelings out to them,screw the shrinks as they may screw your military and civilian career possibilities.

I am no shrink,I have been through what others called traumatic events,the way I found to work for me and others with me is to talk to them about it,this works for me and seems to work for others.

[metz57]

Hi all,
I was told once that the state of mind of the person when the traumatic event happens has a lot to do with whether are not they will suffer from PTSD. For example, a cop who is shot at, without warning while talking to a kid who’s had his bike stolen in a safe area, is more likely to suffer than if the same guy was shot at while raiding a crack house and expecting trouble.

To me, what Jim H say’s is happening to the American guy’s is nothing short of betrayal. I think the way the British military handle PTSD is pretty good. Before deployments some Corporals are sent on a short course on how to spot the signs of someone who is suffering. When a traumatic event happens, the team who where involved all sit down together with one of these Corporals from the same Company and talk through what happened. The guy’s generally don’t mind talking with ‘one of their own’ and the Corporal has the advantage of knowing the lads personally so would find it easier to spot behaviour which is out of character.

The Corporal then decides, if anyone needs urgent help, or could do with close monitoring. If not then a few weeks later each guy gets interviewed one on one by a more qualified person but still from the same cap badge so you still get the ‘one of us’ attitude. He gives you a more in depth look to make sure you haven’t developed any symptoms.

I was considered a very low risk of developing problems in the future and I haven’t, and don’t think I ever will. I did have one flash back though which was brought on by a car accident. I was a passenger in my girlfriends car when a drunk drove into the back of us while we where stopped a traffic lights. It felt just like it did being blown up by an IED, my girlfriend clearly remembers me shouting DRIVE DRIVE DRIVE!!!!! (We laugh about it now).

A lot of the stigma surrounding PTSD has gone in the British military now and getting it shouldn’t adversely effect anyone’s career, which, if you ask me, is the way it should be.

All the best

Calvin

[cfadeftac]

I had a coach who was in the SAS in Malaysia back in the late 60s early 70s, he always felt that the American military did its soldiers a diservice during the Vietnam war by not briefing them properly.  Now my time lines may be wrong but he said when a SAS unit was brought in from the from the field they were de briefed repeatedly as well as kept in isolation for a month or more (so they could only hang with their mates and other soldiers) and wind down.  His information may have been wrong but he said that the American troops who went home were often just let loose onto civvie street.

Andrew

So I guess the British have been looking at PTSD for a long time now.

[Hock]

as well as kept in isolation for a month or more

A month! Wow! Who is left to run all the missions?

But I know US special forces go into isolation BEFORE the mission for numerous reasons, but only as long as time senstive missions permit. One team spent two weeks in isolation on a mission prep to find an NVA cave just inside Laos. Getting ready to board the chopper? They were suddenly sent on another completely different mission.
They got back and no isolation.

So I think it is all time sensitive.

I know that the Army is so sluggush in assignment changes like processing, paperwork and transportation, I had three weeks off going from Ft Gordon, GA to Ft Sill, Ok. It took three weeks to get from Korea to Oakland, CA. I wasn't in isolation, but I was sleeping late, getting fed, watching TV and chasing_______ and wasn't working.
Granted there were no Dr Phil sessions. And I turned out okay...

Hey, gotta go! I missed my meds!
Hock

[JimH]

US and UK special ops work similarly,they have Isolation, pre mission briefs,Mission,post operation debrief and Isolation all of it is time dependent upon the mission,the activities done and required before and after the mission.

The mission dictates the needs before ,during and after.

The turn around from combat zone to home is very fast,within days to a couple weeks and this does indeed play apart in PTSD and reacclimation,if one looks at the stories out of places like Bragg and Hereford one will see PTSD tragedies,from spousal killings to suicides to bodily harm.but these are not just Spec Ops specific they are not,they are across the board situations,it is just many believe Special Ops to have to be better able to handle it.(everyone is human)

When one works in the realm of secrecy,one is less able to talk to anyone except those that they were there with.
Two man teams or snipers and spotter teams or single shooters doing spec ops missions have no one to talk to,except the debriefer and they are only interested in afetr action intel not mental adjustment.

Talking is the key,but who you talk to is also important as they must have been people who were there and did that types rather than shrink types or spouses.
(Today Careers are made or broken by those people/shrinks)

The Army was trying to change that and had shriinks deployed to battle field units,to seem more like the men they were talking to,but the reality is if you have not put your hide on the line,risked your life or taken a life then where you work has little to do with how you are thought of when talking about actions taken.
(being stationed at an FOB and never leaving the camp is not the same as for those who go outside everyday to risk it all)

[cfadeftac]

Oops maybe I should clarify, the isolation was only once the team was cycled out of Malaysia and back to the UK not before each individual mission was run. His idea of isolation sounds alot like your move Hoch with sleeping late and alot of boredom.

Then again he rarely talked about his time in the service so I may have screwed up the time lines.  He mostly felt that the mistake was made releasing people back into the general populace at home.

Andrew

Mainly if he did talk he would talk about his best friend who died in the Falklands years after he personally left the service, this seemed to affect him alot more than his own time in the service.