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[JimH]

Isolation takes place prior to and just after a mission.
Prior to is mission prep,post is debrief.
Prior to involves:
Equipment needs are tasked
Targets are planned and assessed
Assets if any are learned and studied.
Enviroment is studied
Weather conditions are taken into account
Language and customs are reviewed
Full mission goals and plans are covered.

Sorry but it is not alot of down time,it is alot of prep time for most team members if the team uses the time correctly,and daily briefings and updates with changes add more work.

Post mission the team returns,cleans up and begins debriefs by commanders and intel operators,team gets down time to get sleep.

If Mission has been long term such as in Iraq or afghanistan then daily debriefs are carried out on objectives  known and new objectives.
There is no need for isolation to prior to every mission as the predeployment covered the overall mission goal.
Daily needs for weapons,expolsives,gear needed and training are reviewed ,updated and relayed to higher command on a regular basis.

I have been operational with the SAS and they operate similarly.

I post on an SAS site and can get specifics of pre and post mission isolation times for Malaysia and Borneo.

[Hock]

Isolation takes place prior to and just after a mission.
Prior to is mission prep,post is debrief.
Prior to involves:
Equipment needs are tasked
Targets are planned and assessed
Assets if any are learned and studied.
Enviroment is studied
Weather conditions are taken into account
Language and customs are reviewed
Full mission goals and plans are covered.

Also, "pre" is for security.
These guys usually do not even make a single phone call to their family. They are I-S-O-L-A-T-E-D. The lid is on mission details. The guys in the states are put in isolation here, then sent overseas sometimes.

I've heard some put away for as long as one month. But that comes from mission stall-outs and changing weather and goals and details...

Hock

[JimH]

Operational Security is always paramount in such units
Isolation just intensives Operational Security to allow for Zero or Near zero leaks on Mission specifics

Isolation Housing:
The windows are blacked out
Food is brought in
No one on the team leaves
nothing leaves
All Equipment is packed,bagged and boxed for insertion,emergency supplies and resupplies (all done inside the isolation house)
If the plan is for para insertion, flight plan route and jump regs are gone over and PLFs are done inside
Trucks back up to the doors on departure
papers burned in burn bags
Isolation area is locked down
you drive out in trucks with the flaps down all round
back into the ramp of the transport craft and load up and leave

Once Isolation begins NO outside contact is allowed.(Military Only in and out as designated)

Depending on Mission ,location of Base and Isolation area,more than one unit or team maybe housed together in Isolation,(if one reads the Isolation period for "Bravo Two Zero" prior to insertion they will see this more open Isolation procedure)

In an open Isolation area,all those around are operators,but the mission specifics are kept within the team specific to provide for security and deniability if other teams are caught or captured.

Mission Security,type of Isolation and post isolation are all Misiion Specific.

[redcap]

Getting back to the country boy thing.  I was once told during an E&E course that a study of POWs in Korea found that the US had the largest number of collaborators per capita among the men.  By this I mean those who swapped over to Communism during the brainwashing sessions.  British Commonwealth troops had hardly any and the Turks just one, and he was killed by his own men for doing so.

The reasons given were that the US troops came from a softer society, relatively speaking, to the rest.  They hadn;t suffered the rationing in WW2 and other factors.  Also, the ones who went over were usually very young and city boys.  Older men and country boys resisted far better.

Another factor was the US organisation.  Brit/Comm and other UN troops were organised more on the Regimental system, they belonged to a much smaller unit or sub-unit that gave them identity.  US troops on the other hand were rotated through larger formations.  The same thing happened in Vietnam.  Australian soldiers went there with their battalion, the same men they had trained with since recruit training.  They went as a unit and returned as a unit.  US troops rotated through and thus there was the situation of new men not being properly integrated, even shunned by those who were "short".

I will never say anything against the individual courage of the GI, but I will say although I would be proud to fight alongside US troops I would never wish to be in the US Military.  I think those who ahve served in British and Commonwealth units, the French Foreign Legion and such understand the esprit de corps that means so much.  Being part of a Division with men rotating through around you can't engender the same loyalties, surely?

One thing I have noticed in recent years is the growth in the counselling industry.  It seems as soon as there is anything remotely traumatic, counselling is offered.  Even on the TV news, they make a big deal of letting us all know that counselling is being offered to the victims, relatives, friends , just about anyone.  A collective sigh of relief is heard as we all know we can manage if we get counselling!

My mother survived WW2 in Berlin, bombed out four times, trapped in a cellar for a week and then chased by Cossacks sabering the men and raping the women.  Nobody counselled her.  She escaped from East Germany by running through a minefield, chased by dogs and shot at to jump into a half frozen River Elbe in February and swim across and still no counselling.  I heard the odd angry shot and attended enough fatal traffic accidents to drive more carefully and I couldn't seek counselling and look my mother in the eye.  Cheers, Redcap.

[Nick Hughes]

Amen brother Redcap, amen

Nick

[Kentbob]

Another factor was the US organisation.  Brit/Comm and other UN troops were organised more on the Regimental system, they belonged to a much smaller unit or sub-unit that gave them identity.  US troops on the other hand were rotated through larger formations.  The same thing happened in Vietnam.  Australian soldiers went there with their battalion, the same men they had trained with since recruit training.  They went as a unit and returned as a unit.  US troops rotated through and thus there was the situation of new men not being properly integrated, even shunned by those who were "short".

I will never say anything against the individual courage of the GI, but I will say although I would be proud to fight alongside US troops I would never wish to be in the US Military.  I think those who ahve served in British and Commonwealth units, the French Foreign Legion and such understand the esprit de corps that means so much.  Being part of a Division with men rotating through around you can't engender the same loyalties, surely?

The U.S. Army tries to explain esprit de corps to the soldiers, but oftentimes, they don't do a very good job.  Usually it just comes out like, "You have to look good so we can show that we have esprit de corps."  To which the confused private replies, "Esprit de corp?  WTF does that even mean?".  Very few leaders can explain it, and very few attempts are made to really give the soldier pride in his unit.  I feel that competition is one excellent way to build unit pride, be it D&C, which some soldiers are excellent at, or shooting, or PT, or really any sporting event.  When I was a paratrooper, we would have batallion level games, where each company would put together a team for pushball, softball, an ironman competition, basketball, and a few other sports, and the company with the most wins would win the battalion cup, either the White Devil cup, (2/504 PIR), or the Geronimo Cup(1/501 PIR).  This was a source of great pride, especially if your company won the ironman competition, which usually consisited of who could do 100 pushups, 100 situps, a 2 mile run, and a 5 mile foot march in the fastest time overall.  These events were annual, but I feel they should be quarterly, if at all possible.  My company won the Geronimo Cup both years when I was in Alaska, and our heads were always held a little higher, and our chests stuck out a little farther for about a month after winning, and of course, the battalion commander never failed to mention the winners whenever there was an official function.  Another way of building pride was battalion level PT runs.  Granted, they didn't do much for PT, but they were great for building cohesion.  Especially when your company consistently has the fewest number of fallouts, you can sit back and sneer at the other companies who are obviously skipping out on hard PT.  And laugh at the fallouts. 

Just a few thoughts.

Kent

[JimH]

I accept the idea that tests against others is good for unit Morale,but Softball,drill and running ,to me are not part of building  "Esprite De Corps".

I could have cared less if the men I served with Lost or won softball or won or lost drill comps,put us in the field and test us in what we are meant to be GOOD at,give a mission,target and time line and see if we pass that test.

To me,what builds "Esprit De Corps" is the Sharing of a True Test,a Test that in the end ,Or as it proceeds ,eliminates the unqualified by the standards set at each level.

There are many who can run and  seem more physically fit,yet when Truely Tested they fail.
why?
Because they lack the Mental mind set needed to proceed.
They lack True Commitment,they Lack the Desire to Push themselves to Succeed,they failed the test.

Those who pass and make it,come out the other end and have a special bond with those who have the shared experience of accomplishing a true test.

There are loads of people who can run, drill and play softball,few are willing to take the step out of an aircraft with a chute,fewer from those elite willing to try Ranger school,fewer to try for Special Ops.

One does not have to be Elite to have "Esprit De Corps" sometimes the Military Branch itself will test and force you to make it or quit,and the people know they will be tested  and that is seen by the few willing to try,such as the Marine Corps.

It does not even have to be Military,any group or job that we do that pushes us,tests us and seperates winners from losers ,creates a feeling of "Esprit De Corp".

To create this "Esprit DeCorp" people must pass a test that seperates them and their people from others,and the test cannot be something anyone can do and hope for the best and if they fail they lose nothing just try again as in softball or Drill comp.

[whitewolf]

I woke up early  today and while getting ready for work out in kuwait city I went on line here to see what is  new-after reading all the above posts i started to  think about some of the things  brought up here as to courage and here are some of  my  thoughts-courage is a reaction to a outside source
that if you dont do  something you will be hurt mentally or physically or your buddies/family/stranger etc will be put in danger-here are some examples:
1-The guy who jumped on the subway tracks and saved a stranger from being crushed in NYC this year
2-The firemen who walked up the stairs in the world  trade  centers to certain death
3-The beautiful lady who lost  her  legs and became a senator after being hurt in Iraq
4-The Marine captain who  jumped in a ditch in Iraq and killed the enemy and came  out alive
5-Martin Luther King
6-The undercover  narcotics  officer shot in the head in Brooklyn
7-The helo pilot who  just  was awarded the  MofH by the president for flying support for the
   Army in Vietnam
Lastly here is a short story of a incident in Vietnam-We were being rocketed and everyone was
digging for china in our  bunkers-one of the Guys got up in the middle of the shit and went inside and
popped open 5-6 beers/put a towel over his arm and came back to the bunker and served us a brew-
that broke us  up and we said F- it-it was not a heroic thing  but he  just  did it.
I guess there are different types of courage but it  boils  down to someone just steps up and does it.
I want to say more  but i guess ill stop and hit the streets-
respectfully, Richard  (ari the whitewolf)

[Kentbob]

I accept the idea that tests against others is good for unit Morale,but Softball,drill and running ,to me are not part of building  "Esprite De Corps".

I could have cared less if the men I served with Lost or won softball or won or lost drill comps,put us in the field and test us in what we are meant to be GOOD at,give a mission,target and time line and see if we pass that test.

To me,what builds "Esprit De Corps" is the Sharing of a True Test,a Test that in the end ,Or as it proceeds ,eliminates the unqualified by the standards set at each level.

There are many who can run and  seem more physically fit,yet when Truely Tested they fail.
why?
Because they lack the Mental mind set needed to proceed.
They lack True Commitment,they Lack the Desire to Push themselves to Succeed,they failed the test.

Those who pass and make it,come out the other end and have a special bond with those who have the shared experience of accomplishing a true test.

There are loads of people who can run, drill and play softball,few are willing to take the step out of an aircraft with a chute,fewer from those elite willing to try Ranger school,fewer to try for Special Ops.

One does not have to be Elite to have "Esprit De Corps" sometimes the Military Branch itself will test and force you to make it or quit,and the people know they will be tested  and that is seen by the few willing to try,such as the Marine Corps.

It does not even have to be Military,any group or job that we do that pushes us,tests us and seperates winners from losers ,creates a feeling of "Esprit De Corp".

To create this "Esprit DeCorp" people must pass a test that seperates them and their people from others,and the test cannot be something anyone can do and hope for the best and if they fail they lose nothing just try again as in softball or Drill comp.

That is true, I guess I should have mentioned when our company had the best time breaching wired obstacles, or the best hit percentage on our stress shoots, stuff like that.  Hard training builds esprit de corps as well, but you can't always go 100%.  Sports, especially contact sports like pushball and boxing are a great way to fill in that gap.  If I had my own army, yeah, I'd do things a little differently, but I don't.  Yes, I want the guys who passed a test, but in the paratroops, everyone's already passed an extra test.  Just like back in the days of WWII, the paratroops are one step above the regular groundpounders. 

I think morale is so closely related to esprit de corp that its hard to seperate the two.  One thing that really raised our pride in our unit, while in Afghanistan, was a massive intel dump we recieved.  Battalion S2 gave us the complete lowdown on everything our unit had accomplished, and once again, this caused us to hold our heads a little higher.  It's a tricky business, raising esprit de corp and morale, and keeping it high.  The best of commanders do it instinctively, with the right amount of hard training, competitiveness, and just plain fun.  Every Sunday in Afghanistan was designated sleep-in Sunday.  We had brunch, we were allowed to wear our PTs as our duty uniform, and nothing except for the most pressing business was done all day.  Any MWR events were conducted on Sunday, and it was generally just a day of rest and relaxation, before getting back to the daily grind.

Knowing that you're the best goes a long way towards making you the best, IMHO.

Kent

[redcap]

With respect to my US comrades, the only units in the US military I would consider to have a similar esprit de corps as us are the USMC, Rangers, Green Berets and probably the Airborne.  No doubt there are others so pardon my ignorance.  However in the Australian and UK Armies there is a different style of esprit de corps that exists simply because you are the latest in a very, very long line.

My father's Regiment, 1st The Queens Dragoon Guards was formed in 1686 for service in the Monmoth Rebellion (or whenever that was!)  Even though he later served in the RAF Regiment and the Australian Army, if asked he always mentions the QDGs.

I served in the Royal Australian Engineers, then the Royal Australian Corps Of Military Police, yet I will always be a Sapper at heart.  Just belonging we knew we were the best, screw the rest.  Civilians were either Diggers waiting for their uniform to come back from the cleaners or the relatives of the women we shagged.  When I was 16, 17, 18 etc I was in the Regular Army and I knew who I was and where I belonged and consequently I wasn;t a yobbo, never turned to drugs or crime etc.  No way would I let the side down.

When the going got tough you drew on that.  How many of us remember how it felt to be near the end of a gruelling Brigade route march and, as you approached the other units lounging around the finish line your NCOs would pass the word to straighten up, bung it on! and you would march that last mile into camp like friggin warrior gods because there was no damn way you were going to let those beggars from the infantry and the artillery and rear echelon wankers know how shagged you were!

I remember as an MP on a divisional exercise with US, UK and NZ troops there was a major battle at the end followed by a huge all unit piss up.  Before we headed off for the boozer we raided the trunks we had brought especially for this that contained our starched greens (fatigues), spit polished boots and white belts and we marched into that BBQ area looking like we had just come from Buckingham Palace guarding the Queen instead of spending four weeks in the bush with every other filthy, smelly squaddie now having a beer and a sausage sandwich! We provided the music via a tape player and the PA system on one of our MP motorbikes and yes, we cleaned and detailed that bike before we rode it to the boozer.  Not easy getting weeks of dust and grime off with just the water in our water bottles but that was what esprit de corps was all about.  Professionalism and going the extra mile, attention to detail.

And next time we pulled a soldier over that had been on that exercise they stood a little straighter and answered a little sharper because.....they respected us.  Cheers, Perry the Redcap.

[JimH]

Redcap,
While I agree being in a unit that has Historical Pride is in itself a badge of Honor and does/should carry a level of Esprit De Corps,we must also remember that the Officers and NCO's of those units did not allow you to enjoy the comforts of belonging without EARNING the right.

I do not Know about Australia or New Zealand but I know for a Fact that in the UK many of the Famous,Historical Units have changed,some done away with.

Training for some of the Respected ,Harder units,Like the Royal Marine Commando has changed dramatically,many of the units have more or less LOST their Esprit De Corps do to changes in policies allowing a more lax style of Military life and training.

Imagine British Airborne Units not being allowed to jump to save money?
Imagine that effect on distinction and seperation from the ordinary squaddie?

I am Lucky I have always been in and served in self motivated and group motivated units, the US Marine Corps, US Army Green Berets,Airborne,and I have done Royal Marine Commando School Lympstone (in the mid 70's) prior to changes in public attitude,political attitude and the creation of more Pillsbury like kids who sit all day playing videos and dreaming of military life through games like SOCOM,lol.

Surprise when they go for the Military and find out they have to REALLY do something physical,lol.
(hey but now you can quit if it is too rough,or if you sign up to be Special Operations and you fail out along the way,The UK is not different now than the US in that regard,which is truely a SAD STATE to be in)

So the US is no longer alone in the Lack of what Drives and Maintains men in Combat ,Esprit De Corps,social changes,political changes and public changes in consciousness all take their toll around the world where easy life style lends itself to lack of desire and the need to EXCEL is no longer sought.

[redcap]

Fair comment Jim and no doubt you are better informed than me on this topic regarding those mentioned units.  I agree mere length of time in existence is insufficient and it is up to the leadership in any group to instil and maintain esprit de corps, morale etc.

I know we always boasted how hard our training was and how much better we were because of it even if we did moan constantly while doing it.  I have heard how today the bar has been lowered so everyone makes the grade and this makes everyone special, just like in school and the utopian society the limp dicks desire simply because it is easier, less scary and it means they are included as mainstream.  Even when they aren;t.

I have seen it in Australia, also.  I laughed when I heard we are no longer allowed to transport our troops to the training area in their trucks.  They travel in coaches and then swap to the trucks (6x6 Macks and 4X4 Unimogs) once on the training ground. OH&S you know!  Strike me pink!

They no longer run in boots as it causes injuries.  So in battle do we stop and change into our Reeboks now or do we walk everywhere, but swiftly?  Next we'll give the troops instruction on how to carry their chairs safely and the safe way to carry those dangerous scissors round the classroom!

The feminist movement and the homosexual lobby started this (I hate to call them gay as most are moribund at best and far too often bellicose and morbid once they reach 40)  I can empathise with their need to change attitudes to their legal rights but the pendulum has swung far too far the other way.  This belief we can legislate against all risk in life is propagated by those who are scared by what others have the guts to do, or even just attempt.  So if they make it illegal then its not them that is too scared, its the law thats stopping them!  Lower the bar, forget striving and survival of the fittest.  If they could make cancer illegal no doubt they would.  If you died of anything other than natural causes you would be heavily fined and maybe even do jail time!

Woman claim they want a man who is sensitive and sharing, yet still a real man.  Many young men today have no idea how to be this concerned cave man.  Then women complain how all the best men are taken, too old or homosexual.  And they wonder why their men seek foreign brides!

Sorry, I'm ranting I know but this is a topic that pushes my button.  I have a 21 year old nephew who has never worked a day in his life and is too lazy to try.  Yet he never tires of coming up with ten  reasons why he can;t get a job.  I told him forget that, just come up with one way you can get one!  Cheers Redcap