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Author Topic: To sling or not to sling  (Read 3175 times)

Kevbo

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To sling or not to sling
« on: November 08, 2004, 01:19:51 PM »

In some recent talks some peaple got on the subject about having a sling or not.
Some groups of peaple say they never need a sling,to each their own
Just some food for thought here are some drills you can try to do with out a sling
1. pull someone to safety
2.climb a ladder, e free hanging rope ladder
3.rappeling
4.swimming
5.climbing steep rock  inclines,near vertical
6.try the ripcord slide
7.cross a ravine on a rope.

just ideas my .02
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Kentbob

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2004, 03:48:51 PM »

Hey kevbo, you forgot about subduing someone, like a suspect, or just containing someone who isn't a threat to life limb or eyesight.  also, what if somehow you run out of ammo, do you toss your weapon aside or just drop it?  not me, i throw it on my back and reach for some steel, or whatever i need in any event.  its easier to apply first aid by slingin your weapon on your back, and you have immediate access, in my opinion.  plus, with a sling, you will never misplace it in the heat of the moment, like say, casualty evacuation, that sort of thing.  not an everyday occurrence for most people i realize this, but these are just some reasons why i like and use a sling. 
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Professor

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2004, 03:50:50 AM »

In some recent talks some peaple got on the subject about having a sling or not.
Some groups of peaple say they never need a sling,to each their own
Just some food for thought here are some drills you can try to do with out a sling
1. pull someone to safety
2.climb a ladder, e free hanging rope ladder
3.rappeling
4.swimming
5.climbing steep rock  inclines,near vertical
6.try the ripcord slide
7.cross a ravine on a rope.

just ideas my .02

I like a sling for long guns and a holster for pistols....
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Nick Hughes

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2004, 12:11:54 PM »

I think there's some miscommunication here which I will accept the blame for.  No sling doesn't mean there isn't one on the weapon...it means you're not allowed to use it during combat patrols because people get lazy and sling the weapon.  Then, when it's needed instantly, it's not available. 

This is why the Aussies and the Brits are seen on their patrols in the jungle and in Northern Ireland with the weapon carried stock in the shoulder, left hand in position on the front of the weapon.  I.e. if you put the weapon to your shoulder as if going to shoot, then lowered the barrel to a low 45 degree position like a skeet shooter waiting for the clay that's the position they carry in...all day if necessary.

There are tactical three point slings available now that weren't around when this doctrine was devised which make it more practical to use a sling but, I received an email from a mate in the Aussie army (who's an ex Legionnaire) and he commented on having to carry his weapon without a sling during a 25 kilometre route march wishing he was back in the Legion with his FAMAS.  (because in the Legion we had slings.)

N

PS:  Whenever we swam with our weapons they were (in regular combat units) held up above the head and out of the water.  Don't know why a sling would be an advantage in that situation.  In my unit 3rd Cie, Parachutistes, we had dry bags, because we'd be doing 8 mile ocean swims with the damn things.

Just my 2 francs.
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Kevbo

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2004, 12:14:48 PM »

I haven't had much luck with slings on my pistol,I also prefer a holster :D
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Kevbo

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2004, 12:35:39 PM »

Ninor must not be old school,he never mentioned anything about a condom over the barrel ;D

Remember safety first,for your rifle and your gun. ;)
« Last Edit: November 09, 2004, 01:01:23 PM by Kevbo »
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Trembula

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2005, 05:41:44 AM »

I was looking at some of the slings sold online and ran across this informational page. Hock's CQC manual details how to use an "old school" plain sling to secure an unneeded long gun and how to present a slung weapon from various common carries.... but what if you have one of those high speed "tactical" slings? This site has photo sequences to walk you through using one of these new-fangled slings: http://www.spectergear.com/carryoptions.htm

Personally, I prefer a simple loop, but for the instructors out there, they need to know how to work both types to be able to help as many students as possible.

Dan
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Hock

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2005, 08:57:05 AM »

I have found that hunter's seem to know more about slings and quick "dismounts" (yes, an odd, but old term for getting your long gun up and ready)

Hunters have practiced them because they suddenly surprise both game and themselves while walking. But dismounts are usually part and parcel of any good tactical rifle course. Not so much in the military.

In the Army 31 years ago I was officialy taught one thing concerning slings. That was how to salute while holding the strap of a slung rifle-in what is called by many, The G.I. Carry. How to salute! That's it.

One afternoon during a break , my drill instructor MaCaskill made one of his famous barking calls to us,

"Come here, dummies!"

We congregated and he took us through a whole series of sling dismounts. And being a young, dumb kid, it didn't stick with me as important information. I really didn't grasp the whole thing until I was shown the same movements and more by MPs in South Korea. Why? Because they had Vietnam war stories for each dismount.

I have one they showed me-involving a weapon transition, pistol-to-slung rifle- shown in the Training Mission One chapter Trembula mentioned, that an MP did during the TET offensive that saved his life.

While teaching about 50 troops knife fighting a few years back, (I shall let the outfit remain nameless) I asked out of curiousity "How many of you have practiced sling quick draws from carry positions." Not a single person had. No one. There were rubber M16s with slings available and despite the mandate for knife training, we spent time doing some of these stress combat quick draws. (MasCaskill would be proud of me).

Probably this material, like bayonet training, are hit and miss topics amongst different training sections and units. I do believe it is a problem easily fixed by a troop in the field. They have to figure out something naturally as they struggle with their gear on a tactical march or patrol.

Oh and back then? They never mentioned the handy-condoms-trick-over-the- barrel. They never issued condoms or needed to bring them up because they sprinkled salt peter in our food. ;D

Hock

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2005, 04:03:03 PM »

If you are using a sling the weapon cannot be taken from you and used to shoot you!!!

I personally use a Spec Ops "Mamba" sling on my M-4.  This places the buttstock at shoulder level, and points the muzzel in a safe direction.

Also what about a transition to pistol in the event of a malfunction or simply running out of ammo.  In a CQB environment a transition is faster that a reload.


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Chuck Burnett

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2005, 07:43:06 PM »

If you are using a sling the weapon cannot be taken from you and used to shoot you!!!

On the other hand , an opponent (or doorknob) that hooks your sling or weapon can yank you around like taking a schnauzer out for his morning walk. ;D

If you use a tac sling practice shedding it and countering hands on attacks.

Also consider perfecting a few chokes or throws against an opponent who's wearing a slung weapon.

Chuck
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Trembula

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2005, 10:25:29 PM »

Slings are just "holsters" for long guns (and marksmanship aids for distance work, but that's another matter entirely). I can see a lot of sense keeping an MP5 or the like attached to a "Chalker Stalker" sling when going in, but for shotguns, carbines, and rifles, the sling becomes a suicide strap like the old Sam Brown belt and offers the bad guy a three foot long lever conveniently attached at one (or both) ends to you so he can toss you around.

Sling up with some of these "high speed" slings and see where the gun is in reference to you. Better be wearing a cup or the barrel or forend is going to whack you in the groin. Watch the face and jaw because the butt is right up there ready to bang you up. Trying to do reloads on your backup sidearm? Ever practiced those with three or four yards of assorted webbing straps and a rifle full of doo-dads in front of your mag pouches? Try kneeling, going prone, etc. with the long gun slung... Maybe I am just old fashioned, but "ye olde loop" sling just looks better and better the more I see of these fancy slings folks are putting on their shotguns and rifles.

Dan
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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2005, 09:27:16 AM »

IMHO
No sling bad.

Old school sling (hunter, WWII style) OK for one thing transporting the weapon in a non-tactical situation.  Sure you can practice "dismounts" ect. But why when there are better sling methods.

Jungle or Patrol sling.  OK, but with limitations.  When your hands are taken off the weapon it flops around.  Transitions to sidearm are slow.

Single point. "Chalker" ect.  Simple, transitions fast, but the weapon will knee cap you and or hit your balls

Three point.  Has the advantages of the patrol with more control.  When worn properly, transitions are very fast.

My earlier comment about the sling to prevent the weapon take away:  Let me elaborate. 
I work High Threat PSD in Baghdad.  I carry an M-4 and a Glock.  I work in very close proximity to armed Iraqis (local police and security) as well as crowds and children.  I would rather fight for my weapon, and if necessary use the Glock or a knife to end the situation than get shot (or worse - my team shot) with my M-4.

A quality three point such as the Spec Ops MAMBA that I use has a quick release to facilitate easy shedding of the weapon (two in fact - one for each hand).

I have known Operators who have had there weapons grabbed, and were only saved by an alert teammate.

I have also known cops shot with there own guns.  A hell of a way to go!

Another thing is that if you get hit, or an explosion (highest threat in this AO) knocks you down.  You still have your weapon.

As with everything, not every piece of kit or tactic will work for every situation.

Out.
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Professor

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2005, 09:41:27 AM »


My earlier comment about the sling to prevent the weapon take away:  Let me elaborate. 
I work High Threat PSD in Baghdad.  I carry an M-4 and a Glock.  I work in very close proximity to armed Iraqis (local police and security) as well as crowds and children.  I would rather fight for my weapon, and if necessary use the Glock or a knife to end the situation than get shot (or worse - my team shot) with my M-4.



Thank you for your service!
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  'Advanced' is being able to do the basics, despite what else is happening. 

Our Country won't go on forever, if we stay soft as we are now. There won't be any AMERICA because some foreign soldiery will invade us and take our women and breed a hardier race!"  --- Chesty Puller, USMC

WTAC

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2006, 04:58:53 PM »

I use a single point bungie sling on my M-4  http://www.sogarmory.com/ProductDtls.aspx?id=102442
I haven't had any groin hits but I have a 13.5" barrel and run my weapon slightly high.
Aaron


Slings are just "holsters" for long guns (and marksmanship aids for distance work, but that's another matter entirely). I can see a lot of sense keeping an MP5 or the like attached to a "Chalker Stalker" sling when going in, but for shotguns, carbines, and rifles, the sling becomes a suicide strap like the old Sam Brown belt and offers the bad guy a three foot long lever conveniently attached at one (or both) ends to you so he can toss you around.

Sling up with some of these "high speed" slings and see where the gun is in reference to you. Better be wearing a cup or the barrel or forend is going to whack you in the groin. Watch the face and jaw because the butt is right up there ready to bang you up. Trying to do reloads on your backup sidearm? Ever practiced those with three or four yards of assorted webbing straps and a rifle full of doo-dads in front of your mag pouches? Try kneeling, going prone, etc. with the long gun slung... Maybe I am just old fashioned, but "ye olde loop" sling just looks better and better the more I see of these fancy slings folks are putting on their shotguns and rifles.

Dan
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Hock

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2006, 06:27:10 PM »

Intresting to see good ol' Trembula's name raised.
(WTAC, Trem was a Naval Acad Grad who died too young from cancer)

Hock

loyalonehk

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2006, 07:19:15 PM »

In OIF III as a Line Co Corpsman I always carried a Baretta, ofter an M4 sometimes got the M249 SAW instead (but thats another story).  IMHO standard and three point slings were a temptation for complacency.  I like the single point bungee - as mentioned in a previous post the ride is nice and sets the stock where you want it to be.   As with all things there is good and bad to everything.  I personaly would stick with the single point bungee for patrols, etc.  but I have mixed feelings about disconecting  the sling during room clearing.  While I was at Mohave Viper this past summer, the instructors were teaching this during SASO.  Those that were practicing room clearing and wore their slings often got yanked off balance and into a bad situation when trying to sneek and peek.  For the flip side of the coin, what are you gonna do, drop your primary when transitioning to your pistol.  (then again most of the Line Co Marines dont carry a pistol)

As with everything, it depends on your level of training and the situation. 

As for the mention of using the sling for dragging a wounded warrior - thats fine as long as the weapon is not attached to it.  If he can still shoot - let em shoot.  If not as a Doc Im gonna use your weapon, help elliminate the threat until safe to work on you.

I dont post much, sorry if I was rambling...

   
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410indashade

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2006, 12:48:54 AM »

I hunted with my father until the age eighteen I never saw him use a sling.  Whether hunting rabbits on the farm or hunting deer and bear in the mountains of New Mexico.  He was an ex-marine who saw action in the Pacific in WWII.  When I got home from Vietnam I became a cop and took up the sidearm as my primary weapon.  But I have always owned and used a variety long guns.  Most of my shotguns are without slings but all of my rifles including rimfires have them for two reasons.  1. For convenience of carry.  2. As an aid to accuracy.  And I am currently putting together a .45 caliber carbine that will be my house gun it will be mounted with one of those new fangled "Voodoo" slings.           
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gumbey

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Re: To sling or not to sling
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2007, 01:51:18 PM »

I diagonally cross-sling the shotgun behind my back (butt facing upward toward the strong side, the barrel facing downward toward my weak side) using the African carry (learned it from Louis Awerbuck's "Combat Shotgun" DVD and is now my preferred type of sling carry) since it is a secondary weapon to my pistol. Not only does the shotgun stay stable and allows me to still keep a 2-hand hold on my pistol during a sweep or room clearing but you can also be aware of the shotgun bumping into walls or furniture, therefore minimizing that chance. Once the pistol runs dry or malfunctions, I can quickly transition to the shotgun either using aimed shoulder fire or point shooting from the hip. But to make it easy to transition to the shotgun, I make sure that the sling is loose enough for free movement, whether accessing it or placing it behind my back. Another reason for having a sling on my shotgun is that it can also accomodate a 13-rd. shotshell pouch that can hold extra rds. of 2 3/4" Federal Powershock or 2 3/4" Federal Tactical (w/ flight-control wad ensuring tighter patterns) 00 Buck. It sure is better than holding a shotgun in my weak hand and holding my pistol in the strong hand.
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