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[Alex]

Chris:  Hi!  I'll start the thread here.  This should be a fun topic as I am sure it'll be full of experiences.  Oh, look here's one:

I work in a branch of Law enforcement and was out on a joint project in Nowheretown, Ontario - Canada. Myself (5'8" 240lbs) Officer #1(6'9" 285) and Officer #2(6'4" 220lbs).  We came upon our subject Joe Dirt #1(5'5" - 185).

You'd think it would've been easy....All three of us, for about 2 minutes trying to unhook this guys arms from his belt and from his sides. Y'see Joe was a bushworker for most of all his life and had some of the toughest fighiting sinews short of a great white shark.   :oAnd we (LE) didntget   in each others way either; finally Officer#1 got an arm braced his foot against a nearby car and reefed the arm behind the back/cuffs got on and everyone lived happily ever after.

never, ever be distracted, never ever be arrogant or unaware around the little guys; they often have a lion's heart and this guy also had the personality of a wolverine - I mean that in utmost respect, by the way and I told him so - got along famously after that.

now influence of drugs: this is a topic on its own, I'm sure, but my opinion is; you have the advantage if hey're wasted...but only if they're TOO wasted; if they're right at the peak or in the mddle of a power-high)meth, coke, crack, rave-drugs, etc)  you're earning your money tonight!

my experiences only - results may vary! 

[Professor]

Chris:  Hi!  I'll start the thread here.  This should be a fun topic as I am sure it'll be full of experiences.  Oh, look here's one:

I work in a branch of Law enforcement and was out on a joint project in Nowheretown, Ontario - Canada. Myself (5'8" 240lbs) Officer #1(6'9" 285) and Officer #2(6'4" 220lbs).  We came upon our subject Joe Dirt #1(5'5" - 185).

You'd think it would've been easy....All three of us, for about 2 minutes trying to unhook this guys arms from his belt and from his sides. Y'see Joe was a bushworker for most of all his life and had some of the toughest fighiting sinews short of a great white shark.   :oAnd we (LE) didntget   in each others way either; finally Officer#1 got an arm braced his foot against a nearby car and reefed the arm behind the back/cuffs got on and everyone lived happily ever after.

never, ever be distracted, never ever be arrogant or unaware around the little guys; they often have a lion's heart and this guy also had the personality of a wolverine - I mean that in utmost respect, by the way and I told him so - got along famously after that.

now influence of drugs: this is a topic on its own, I'm sure, but my opinion is; you have the advantage if hey're wasted...but only if they're TOO wasted; if they're right at the peak or in the mddle of a power-high)meth, coke, crack, rave-drugs, etc)  you're earning your money tonight!

my experiences only - results may vary! 

Geez   You guys are big.  You big guys work way to hard...oh, the topics of seminars.   

Alex, you've proably heard me say it before......"relax" and go with the flow (one of you sitting in the middle of his back with your knee would probably do wonders also).    I know, Jeff, you had to have been there....I know...There are many times that I'm glad I'm not a law enforcement officer that situation would be one to them.

Glad ya'll are safe,

Jeff

[Alex]

Hey Jeff!

yeah, they grow us fairly big up here; it's to help deal with the cold...

i'm glad you mentioned the knee in the back thing; as with most all fights/altercations, you go through a rehashing of the event and critique what you could've/should've would've done; we all did while doing a hot debrief later.

And the one thing, I don't think we did was a knee in the back; I won't say "you had to be there" either; I need to hear different views on this stuff...except if it's from a Citizen review Board(Arm-chair generals, as I call them-no offence to folks who sit on a committee like this, but butchers and other good citizens that scrutinize 20 year veterans about how they conduct murder investigations seems a little whacky to me - ourse that's my opinion and I could be wrong....

So thanks at any time Jeff!

al-x

[Rob]

Ive always had more respect for the small guys 

[Lance_Larsen]

My first Kung Fu instructor was a "little guy".  I learned all about that real quick.

First the disclaimer: I wasn't there, and I'm no expert, but I'll blab on like I know what I'm talking about anyway. 

I've been working on what Musashi wrote in "The Book of Five Rings" about taking on mulitple opponents.  I've done some thought experiments, and worked things out in training and simulations, and expanded on it.  He wrote about how he could take on multiple attackers by sort of working the corners of the group and pushing them all into one small group.  From his perspective, as a single person, this does several things.  The best place for my opponent is in front of me, the worst place is behind me.  By pushing the corners in you keep threats from getting behind you.  Another benefit is that you start "stacking" opponents.  If you have three opponents, and they are in a straight line in front of you then they would have to fight through the guy in front of them before they could even get to you.  If you can manage to move into a position that will line your opponents up (as much as is possible) it will give you an advantage.  If they manage to circle you then you will be at a disadvantage.

Now let's expand that beyond Musashi's perspective (one Samurai vs. multiple opponents).  Now we have 3 cops (good guys) vs. one bad guy.  The worst thing for you guys would be to line up in front of him.  The best thing would be to maneuver and surround him.  If one guy can manage to get behind him and stay behind him then it opens up a lot of possibilities.  It's all much easier if one person manages to get his attention.  Many times people stay so focused on one target they forget about the other threats.  That gives the other guys the opportunity to take up a better position.  All of this takes teamwork and preparation.  If one of you did manage to get behind him the old "grab his ankles and put your shoulder into their butt" works pretty well (I don't know, is there a technical term for it???).  If you suprise them you really can take them down quick.  The arms usually go out to break their fall.  The other two grab an arm each.  As you take him down, once he gets on the ground "crawl up" his back.  This keeps weight on him while you maneuver for a better position.  You can move up for the "knee in the back" or the 'knee in the back of the neck" bit, or get wherever you are needed next.  Even if you are nothing but dead weight on his back at least you are making it more difficult for him to move.

None of this works without teamwork, so it takes practice.  I usually have people practice two on one at first.  Just maneuver.  The two try to get in a position where at least one is behind the single person.  At the same time the single person tries to get the other two into a straight line.  Keep it walking speed only at first.  This has two benefits, the single person learns to avoid a position of disadvantage while the other two learn to work as a team and get in an advantageous position.  Then switch up so everyone gets a chance to be the "single guy".  Then step up to 3 or 4 vs. 1.  Then 3 or 4 vs. 2.  It looks kind of silly, but it's easy practice and people really learn some good "subliminal" teamwork.  After doing this for a while you'll just start changing positions without even thinking about it.  It can work even if the other two team members aren't in on the drill.  You just stay back and quiet and let them distract the person while you move.

I saw a perfect example of this on one of those cop tragedy type shows Fox is famous for.  The car camera showed a Highway Patrol officer pull over a car load of guys.  I watched as he focused on one guy and the other two surrounded him.  What was he thinking letting them do that?  Big suprise--one of them grabbed the cop's gun and shot him.  Your feet aren't tree roots.  They can move.  If your opponents want to dance then dance.  If anyone needs to practice this it's cops who work alone.  Don't get surrounded!

I'm not going to tell you that I've mastered all this, I'm just saying it's worth experimenting with.  Get your two buddies together again, and get some port sap to play the perp.  Go through it again.  Practice moving to better positions.  See for yourself what works and what doesn't work.  See if you can make the guy in the middle nervous.  Making him nervous during training may make him nervous in a similar situation on the street.  This might save his life some day.  It takes you that small step from "I'm nervous" to realizing "I'm nervous because I'm being surrounded", which should then lead you to "I really need to move and take control of this situation."

I've had great success using this in training.  We expand it by having multiple people with and without concealed weapons.  Someone might come up and scream "WHAT TIME IS IT?" another might draw a rubber knife, another might draw an Airsoft handgun.  People learn real fast how to keep threats in front of them, and how to walk around the perimeter of a group.  The mere fact that you are not allowing yourself to be put into a position of disadvantage may be enough of a cue to your prospective opponents that they realize you aren't easy prey.

I haven't seen much training material on this, perhaps I've led a sheltered life.  If you know of any sources of quality information on this subject (as it relates directly to CQB) please post them. I've seen bits and piece in different places, but nothing that really nails it.

Try it out and let me know how it works.  I'd like to know what you come up with.

[Lance_Larsen]

A little more food for thought...  If you can follow along with my previous post, and you see any benefit to any of it at all, it begs the question "Should we also be practicing weapon disarms from BEHIND our opponent?"  I'd like to know people's thoughts on that.  It ties in with my previous post, but perhaps it deserves a discussion thread of it's own.

My previous post might be a bit hard to visualize, perhaps I should put together a short streaming video and revisit the topic visually.  If you guys think that would be of benefit I'd be happy to do it.

And if you disagree with all this then chime in, I'm always learning from both mistakes and successes.

[NathanT]

Uh, I know I'm being simple, but what about a Taser? Since they've been introduced, they've reduced the incidence of resisting at my former department.

I think many small guys tend to be meaner and can surprise you with their aggression. And, as has been stated well, larger men sometimes assume the size differential will make things easy. One of our officers, 6'2" and right about 300# (bodybuilder/powerlifter), and very strong (and MMA experience) was attempting to pull a subject's arm around, and the little guy was fighting hard. Our big guy couldn't do it. A lieutenant with him, about 5'9" and 170# told him to stop using strength, and just bump his arm instead of muscling it.

My point is that the technique rules. Our big officer's was used to intimidating others with his appearance and strength, and few resisted him. Out little (relatively) lieutenant was used to resistance, and couldn't depend on strength.

Without knowing exactly what went down in detail, we can't help too much, but I hope that helps a little.

Glad everyone was OK.

[whitewolf]

Lance-you discribed pulling on the ankles of the opponent-if you have  axcess to BB mag dec 2005
read the article by Jim Arvanitis on "sprawl Counter"-it discribes the movement where good guy gets behind and pullls the ankles-i just  happened to  have it in the pile of old articles that i save-this movement can be accomplished and then continue on to hold/handcuff/or etc etc as needed-I am one of these little  guys-5'9" 175 so i need every  trick i  can get ahold  of-as i  read the post you sent about the 3 big  cops-problem was that  they were trying not to kill the guy so  they might have held back-but in the street if  they were off duty it  might have  been a  different  matter-they probably  would  have flattened him like a pan cake-stay safe, whitewolf

[WTAC]

This is the perfect suspect to use a Taser on. I don't know about Canada, but here in sunny California everybody has a camera phone or videorcamera ready to tape every police incident. And right or wrong you three on him would look ugly. Not saying you won't be able to justify it, but it would look ugly. I see good use of force incidents get payed out all the time because of appearances. Thats why Taser when you get a soild hit are such a good tool. Just my two cents
Aaron

Uh, I know I'm being simple, but what about a Taser? Since they've been introduced, they've reduced the incidence of resisting at my former department.

I think many small guys tend to be meaner and can surprise you with their aggression. And, as has been stated well, larger men sometimes assume the size differential will make things easy. One of our officers, 6'2" and right about 300# (bodybuilder/powerlifter), and very strong (and MMA experience) was attempting to pull a subject's arm around, and the little guy was fighting hard. Our big guy couldn't do it. A lieutenant with him, about 5'9" and 170# told him to stop using strength, and just bump his arm instead of muscling it.

My point is that the technique rules. Our big officer's was used to intimidating others with his appearance and strength, and few resisted him. Out little (relatively) lieutenant was used to resistance, and couldn't depend on strength.

Without knowing exactly what went down in detail, we can't help too much, but I hope that helps a little.

Glad everyone was OK.

[mleone]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04g1oy4sBjc

Here is a classic story of big guy vs small!